Is amateur chemistry dead?

[PaperclipGod]

Last year I was thinking of setting up some space in my new house for a small hobby-sized lab. Nothing more serious than a microscope and a exhaust vent, really. I know it probably sounds like a weird hobby, but my great grandfather was actually a really awesome research chemist, so I guess that interest just runs in the family.

Anyway, I called around to a couple local lab supply shops, and they were ADAMANT that they wouldn't sell supplies to someone unaffiliated with a commercial lab or university. WTF? I mean, they wouldn't even sell me glassware. Upon asking them about reagent-grade purity of stuff you can buy at home depot -- like denatured alcohol -- it sounded like the woman was ready to hang up and place a call to the FBI.

Are there any legitimate lab shops that will sell to a hobbyist? I've found some glassware on ebay, but what about chemicals? Nothing exotic or inherently dangerous, just small quantities of mild acids/bases, some pH dyes, and similar stuff that even a 5th grader would be safe with. I know I can find a lot of it right on the shelf in most supermarkets... but has it really come to that? Just to collect the most basic reagents I need to resort to tactics used by guys that run meth labs?

 

[Matthiasa]

And those meth labs would be why you can't.
Wide spread use of that stuff in the synthesis of drugs is why you can't get that stuff anymore...
Well and the lawsuits.

 

[Azraele]

My dad still gives me a hard time about the time I decided to use our spoons to mix up all the chemicals in a chemistry set they'd gotten me.

 

[Matthiasa]

Thats because back when you could get those things, those were actually real chemicals.
And mixing random chemicals sometimes leads to funny colored smoke, or explosions.

I remember one of my teachers in high school making contact explosives with readily available chemicals, though I can't quite remember which ones they were.

 

[Bill Brasky]

What's the point really? All the fun stuff is so heavily regulated Even though I work in a genetics lab, I've made some pretty good 'bangs' in my day!

 

[kami333]

Between meth and terrorists, yeah it's dead. Though I highly doubt that either of them would go through the hassle of getting a proper fume hood. Even culturing yeast for beer is getting sketchy.

Wired had an article on it a few years ago:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.06/chemistry.html

Sciencemadness.org has a pretty good following of "underground" chemists and biologists.

 

[SunnyD]

Thats because back when you could get those things, those were actually real chemicals.
And mixing random chemicals sometimes leads to funny colored smoke, or explosions.

I remember one of my teachers in high school making contact explosives with readily available chemicals, though I can't quite remember which ones they were.

I'm guessing a little bit of nitroglycerin, some magnesium and possibly some sodium.

 

[Kadarin]

Amateur chemistry is pretty much dead: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.06/chemistry.html?pg=1&topic=chemistry&topic_set=

As a society we no longer seem to value nurturing enthusiasm for doing science, and we're so afraid of both meth and terrorism (not to mention omg think of the children) that it's not even worth thinking about.

 

[PingSpike]

Only terrorists have a need to learn basic chemistry. I suggest you focus on getting your marketing degree, like a real red blooded American.

 

[Gibsons]

I'm guessing a little bit of nitroglycerin, some magnesium and possibly some sodium.

I'll guess ammonium iodide.

 

[Babbles]

It does suck that terrorism and stupidity has created regulations that inhibit background science.

I suppose I would wonder what exactly your goal is? Just looking to mix up a bunch of stuff and see what happens? If so that has a potential for being a not so smart idea. If the goal is genuine discovery, there that is really just a pipe dream nowadays.

Regardless of what your goal is, anal retentive laws just suck.

 

[Brainonska511]

If the goal is genuine discovery, there that is really just a pipe dream nowadays.

It's a pipe dream in an amateur chemistry lab. Where are you going to get the tools for proper analysis? They aren't cheap. The few things you could do visually and fairly cheaply don't really tell you too much about what you actually made.

 

[PottedMeat]

It's a pipe dream in an amateur chemistry lab. Where are you going to get the tools for proper analysis? They aren't cheap. The few things you could do visually and fairly cheaply don't really tell you too much about what you actually made.

all the simple/easy reactions are documented anyway


what kind of tools do you need for proper analysis - a chromatography machine or something?

 

[surfsatwerk]

Recreational chemistry is alive and well.

 

[Kirby]

I'll guess ammonium iodide.

Ammonium nitrate? You can buy it at farmers co-ops.

 

[Brainonska511]

all the simple/easy reactions are documented anyway


what kind of tools do you need for proper analysis - a chromatography machine or something?

If you're just looking for simple stuff, you may be able to get away with TLC analysis or some other indicator (using a further reaction), but a lot of stuff, you'd probably want to have access to NMR and/or an FTIR to get a better idea of what you wanted.

A liquid chromatography machine is a cheaper analysis tool (and that will only give you UV/Vis absorption and where it comes out on a column), and those will run you at least $20-30k, without including the cost of analytical columns or the necessary solvents.


Edit:

That doesn't mean I don't believe in doing the simple experiments that can be done in a high school. Those hands on labs are a great way to enhance what people are learning and understand how the stuff they are learning applies to experimentation.

I guess I just don't see the excitement in making simple molecules in my garage and then running TLCs. I'm probably jaded in regards to amateur chemistry because of my current work in an academic chemistry lab.

 

[Kadarin]

Only terrorists have a need to learn basic chemistry. I suggest you focus on getting your marketing degree, like a real red blooded American.

Call my cynical, but yeah, this... ^^^

 

[zinfamous]

Only terrorists have a need to learn basic chemistry. I suggest you focus on getting your marketing degree, like a real red blooded American.

sadly....this is what has happened.

 

[PaperclipGod]

If you're just looking for simple stuff, you may be able to get away with TLC analysis or some other indicator (using a further reaction), but a lot of stuff, you'd probably want to have access to NMR and/or an FTIR to get a better idea of what you wanted.

A liquid chromatography machine is a cheaper analysis tool (and that will only give you UV/Vis absorption and where it comes out on a column), and those will run you at least $20-30k, without including the cost of analytical columns or the necessary solvents.


Edit:

That doesn't mean I don't believe in doing the simple experiments that can be done in a high school. Those hands on labs are a great way to enhance what people are learning and understand how the stuff they are learning applies to experimentation.

I guess I just don't see the excitement in making simple molecules in my garage and then running TLCs. I'm probably jaded in regards to amateur chemistry because of my current work in an academic chemistry lab.

Yeah... 20k for a chromatography rig is about $19,800 over budget for me. I'll stick to using paper towels. D:

And yeah, I don't think someone like you who works in a lab all day is the type that would want to mess around with a home lab. From my perspective, though, even just controlling basic reactions is kinda fun. Not because its useful, but because its interesting and entertaining. It's just like any other hobby, I suppose -- if you spend your day teaching freshman philosophy, you're probably not going to see the fun in reading Plato in your free time.

 

[Eli]

This thread makes me sad, and makes me want to setup a lab just to go against the man.

Sad world we live in. I say go for it. It really shouldn't be hard for you to find basic lab supplies and chemicals. Just keep trying different places.

Obviously you're going to need a legitimate permit and or business license for any of the dangerous stuff, but beakers, graduated cylinders, pipettes, etc being hard to source is ridiculous.

I seem to recall Edmund Scientific having lab supplies in their catalog. Let me check it out.

Edit: Yeah!

http://scientificsonline.com/category.asp_Q_c_E_421185

 

[tk149]

Yeah, it sucks. Every lab supply company I bought from in my last job made us fill out paperwork setting us up as a legitimate customer.

/terrorists win

 

[Rubycon]

RIP roguesci.org! :'(

 

[tcsenter]

Yep, its a royal PITA to get chemicals for fireworks these days as well. I used to make my own amateur fireworks and flash powders. Haven't done it in a few years due to the paperwork and prices have quadrupled.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

I'll guess ammonium iodide.

or ammonium nitrate.

You might be able to order lump sodium or potassium metal. If you get some of that stuff, all you need is a pond and you can have fun all afternoon.

 

[OverVolt]

So the USA is going to lose it's stance of dominance because we are scared. That sounds about right.

Someone like Gordon Moore would have had his house raided. Think about that.