Is Cathlocism Worse Than Islam?

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Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
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Well, I have described that I found the strawberry so we will not go over that part, but it turned my world upside down, or rather right side up. The need for meaning, for God, for certainty, for truth, for truth in the good is as meaningless as any other emotional longing. Joy and love are the natural state of the true self and can easily be hidden and separated from, but can never be lost. We are God. We were created in His image and we created Him in ours.

Right, I see what you mean. But all the suffering in the world - little children being blown up, or a seemingly random event like a parent whose child died in a traffic accident, a woman who is beaten up by her husband, and so on - how *do* you view it? Ok you might say the search for meaning in it is meaningless. Right. But still how DOES one view it? What does one make of it all? That there is no meaning in it, and the search for it is meaningless itself - doesn't that.....isn't that utter indifference? Like being an automaton. To a parent who has lost their child, one goes and say - you are God. The supreme joy is within you. Wouldn't that be absurd in the extreme....
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,587
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You got nothing so you resort to insults. You don't care because you support him, I haven't seen you condemn this. The reason I brought this up is because in Islam he is taught to be the perfect man even though he married a 7 year old little girl.

Take a look at those African Muslims are getting up to these days then get back to us

You are definitely uninformed, and your history of paroting right wing christian hyperbolic nonsense is proof enough.

Attempting to use the age of one of Muhammeds wives as some sort of definitive argument about Islam is something a 5 year old attending Bible school would come up with.

Hell the Nazi's came to power in a Christian nation and the roots of their antisemitism is of Christian origin (unsurprising given Christianity's antisemitic traditions).

Try again.
 
Reactions: whm1974
Apr 27, 2012
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You are definitely uninformed, and your history of paroting right wing christian hyperbolic nonsense is proof enough.

Attempting to use the age of one of Muhammeds wives as some sort of definitive argument about Islam is something a 5 year old attending Bible school would come up with.

Hell the Nazi's came to power in a Christian nation and the roots of their antisemitism is of Christian origin (unsurprising given Christianity's antisemitic traditions).

Try again.

So you defend child pedophilia? The only problem is that muhammed is taught to be the perfect person everyone should aspire to.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
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So you defend child pedophilia? The only problem is that muhammed is taught to be the perfect person everyone should aspire to.
No he wasn't defending pedophilia, but calling you out for bigotry. I have issues with the the the Abrahamic religions myself due to the harms they caused.
 
Apr 27, 2012
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No he wasn't defending pedophilia, but calling you out for bigotry. I have issues with the the the Abrahamic religions myself due to the harms they caused.

Yes he was. He was more interested in attacking me than pedophilia. He was making excuses and trying to protect Muhammed.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
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So is it possible to come up with a more deluded and pretentious username than incorruptible? A human being by definition cannot even be close to that
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
Yes he was. He was more interested in attacking me than pedophilia. He was making excuses and trying to protect Muhammed.
Yup, it's pretty obvious who Muslims worship (Muhammad) vs Christians (Jesus). People need to read up on what Muhammad stood for before posting idiocy.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
Yup, it's pretty obvious who Muslims worship (Muhammad) vs Christians (Jesus). People need to read up on what Muhammad stood for before posting idiocy.
One think I have heard about Islam that I like is how to address evil in a way that resolves Judaism and Christianity at a higher level of understanding. The Jews taught an eye for and eye and Christianity forgiveness for sin. An eye for an eye leads to endless tit for tat and forgiving the wrong person who isn't repentant can lead to being killed. My understanding is that Islam says that when you are faced with evil you destroy it mercilessly and without compromise bu any means that you can, but if the enemy surrenders and renounces his evil ways, then and only then do you apply forgiveness and any further violence to that enemy is treated as sin. However, you only get one bite at that apple and if you start down the path of evil again to harm innocent people, you pay with your life. I don't know if this is right but it makes tremendous common sense to me. Furthermore, the whole emphasis is on stopping evil not on revenge. In the time of Muhammad there were no jails that functioned to keep bad people separated from the general population run at tax payers' expense so death would have been the only way to stop people who wouldn't learn lessons. This is why I think Islam is strict about the death penalty here. A lot of innocent people probably died before Islam set a limit at one fuck up per customer.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
One think I have heard about Islam that I like is how to address evil in a way that resolves Judaism and Christianity at a higher level of understanding. The Jews taught an eye for and eye and Christianity forgiveness for sin. An eye for an eye leads to endless tit for tat and forgiving the wrong person who isn't repentant can lead to being killed. My understanding is that Islam says that when you are faced with evil you destroy it mercilessly and without compromise bu any means that you can, but if the enemy surrenders and renounces his evil ways, then and only then do you apply forgiveness and any further violence to that enemy is treated as sin. However, you only get one bite at that apple and if you start down the path of evil again to harm innocent people, you pay with your life. I don't know if this is right but it makes tremendous common sense to me. Furthermore, the whole emphasis is on stopping evil not on revenge. In the time of Muhammad there were no jails that functioned to keep bad people separated from the general population run at tax payers' expense so death would have been the only way to stop people who wouldn't learn lessons. This is why I think Islam is strict about the death penalty here. A lot of innocent people probably died before Islam set a limit at one fuck up per customer.
The problem with stopping "evil" is that "evil" is subjective depending on the religion. Can you define what evil is in the Koran? Because we know that in the Bible if it goes against the 10 commandments it's evil. I can tell you that the Koran advocates decapitating limbs for something as stupid as "mischief against allah". What the fuck is mischief? Again, subjective and they worded it that way on purpose so it gave their hardcore an excuse to use the sword as they saw fit. It reminds me of how Germany is weaponizing censorship of all of their online content for anything Germany's gov deems "offensive speech". Again, it's just a power play, nothing more nothing less. Some power is taken by the sword, others by threat of the sword (like Germany) that enforces bad legislation.

No jails in the time of muhammed? Yes there were. Muhammad's time came well after Jesus' and Jesus' was imprisoned with other criminals who were crucified, remember? Prisons absolutely existed in Muhammad's time and culture.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
The problem with stopping "evil" is that "evil" is subjective depending on the religion. Can you define what evil is in the Koran? Because we know that in the Bible if it goes against the 10 commandments it's evil. I can tell you that the Koran advocates decapitating limbs for something as stupid as "mischief against allah". What the fuck is mischief? Again, subjective and they worded it that way on purpose so it gave their hardcore an excuse to use the sword as they saw fit. It reminds me of how Germany is weaponizing censorship of all of their online content for anything Germany's gov deems "offensive speech". Again, it's just a power play, nothing more nothing less. Some power is taken by the sword, others by threat of the sword (like Germany) that enforces bad legislation.

No jails in the time of muhammed? Yes there were. Muhammad's time came well after Jesus' and Jesus' was imprisoned with other criminals who were crucified, remember? Prisons absolutely existed in Muhammad's time and culture.

There have always been dungeons. I am talking about the modern conception of prisons as a method of isolating bad people from the general population with the rise of a state apparatus and justice system to insure that those who are destructive wind up there.

First thing I found on the internet about evil: One of the consistent messages of the holy Quran to her followers is addressed in the following verses: “The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one, which is better, then lo! He, between whom and you there was enmity [will become] as though he were a bosom friend.” And: “The servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth humbly, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they respond with [words of] peace.”

Your point that evil is subjective is one I constantly make. I would say you did a fine job of using your own subjective standards here to slam Islam. I pretty much have little interest in opinions that include statements such as 'nothing more or less'. I find your dogmatic certainty to be suspect. Seems like you are motivated to think as you do, in my opinion, rather than open to learning. I can't see any skin coming off my nose if I'm wrong.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
There have always been dungeons. I am talking about the modern conception of prisons as a method of isolating bad people from the general population with the rise of a state apparatus and justice system to insure that those who are destructive wind up there.

First thing I found on the internet about evil: One of the consistent messages of the holy Quran to her followers is addressed in the following verses: “The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one, which is better, then lo! He, between whom and you there was enmity [will become] as though he were a bosom friend.” And: “The servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth humbly, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they respond with [words of] peace.”

Your point that evil is subjective is one I constantly make. I would say you did a fine job of using your own subjective standards here to slam Islam. I pretty much have little interest in opinions that include statements such as 'nothing more or less'. I find your dogmatic certainty to be suspect. Seems like you are motivated to think as you do, in my opinion, rather than open to learning. I can't see any skin coming off my nose if I'm wrong.
All in all, 8/10 for deflecting from Muhammad, his life, his accomplishments, and what his values were. To reiterate my original post - study Muhammad and you'll know what Muslims think like since he's their hero.

The verse I found on evil (or "mischief" as defined in this verse):
Quran 5:33- “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”.
So whatever you define as "mischief" gives you full authority to go murder someone. Does this sound like the religion of peace? Why doesn't this verse discuss talking it out with words of peace like your verse instructs them to do? That's another problem with the Koran, inconsistency and contradictions like this. This allows the reader to pick and choose their action and then claim it was what their holy book told them to do (e.g. murder).

So you disagree that using religion or the government as a power play is true? Forget the "nothing more nothing less" verbiage for a sec. What does government gain by enticing religious zealots to take up the sword? Power. That's what this is about. The Koran is instructing its followers to murder anyone who causes mischief which could be anything. It's giving them a blank check to define what evil or mischief is. That isn't right to me. No, I don't mind learning but you have to explain the violent passages to me first before I'll buy into it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
All in all, 8/10 for deflecting from Muhammad, his life, his accomplishments, and what his values were. To reiterate my original post - study Muhammad and you'll know what Muslims think like since he's their hero.

The verse I found on evil (or "mischief" as defined in this verse):
Quran 5:33- “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”.
So whatever you define as "mischief" gives you full authority to go murder someone. Does this sound like the religion of peace? Why doesn't this verse discuss talking it out with words of peace like your verse instructs them to do? That's another problem with the Koran, inconsistency and contradictions like this. This allows the reader to pick and choose their action and then claim it was what their holy book told them to do (e.g. murder).

So you disagree that using religion or the government as a power play is true? Forget the "nothing more nothing less" verbiage for a sec. What does government gain by enticing religious zealots to take up the sword? Power. That's what this is about. The Koran is instructing its followers to murder anyone who causes mischief which could be anything. It's giving them a blank check to define what evil or mischief is. That isn't right to me. No, I don't mind learning but you have to explain the violent passages to me first before I'll buy into it.
I had some exposure to Christianity and by the age of 11 had figured out that if you read what Jesus taught and how Christians actually act those are two vastly different things. My guess is that if you are a Christian your understanding of your own religion is as fucked up as your view of Islam and what it teaches.

The following person was a Sufi Muslim teacher whom I heard about some years back. I have quoted him here because of his Islamic roots and because he speaks of a way of looking at the world that I believe does not need a belief in God to understand, but which when understood will produce a mind at peace that will make you like a believer.

M. R. Bawa Muhaiyaddeen: When the rain falls, all the rainwater flows toward the sea. Some of the water may collect in ponds or lakes. As more rainwater continues to flow into these ponds, it pushes out the water already there, and the new water remains in its place. The water that was there earlier is very happy as it makes good its escape, saying, “I am free! I have escaped from the stench and the dirt. How much I had to suffer! Dogs’ urine, jackals’ urine, cows’ urine-I had to endure so much filth and smell! Now I am free from all that!” So saying, the pond water runs toward the vast ocean.

On the other hand, the dry earth feels very happy and comforted as it soaks up the rainwater. It goes on drinking and drinking that water, until finally, when it cannot drink any more, it turns into muddy sludge, filled with decaying leaves and debris. Earlier, people could lie on that earth, cows and goats could sleep on it, but now no one can even walk on it. Its beauty is gone.

And what of the fresh rainwater that displaced the stagnant water in the pond? Worms, insects, reptiles, and odors will come into that water all too soon, and it too will lose its beauty and take on a stench. This fresh water that helped the old water to escape from its suffering, soon will suffer the same fate-to become stagnant, dirty, and smelly. When it was on its way, it was joyful in anticipation, and when it first arrived it was still happy. But as it experiences being in the pond, it will begin to understand the difficulty and suffering that goes with it.

There is a Tamil story about a quarrel between two sisters-Moodevi and Seedevi. One represents right, the other represents wrong. Now, both right and wrong must exist in this world. Darkness and light are also necessary. But even though darkness and light both have to exist in the world, neither one need suffer or cause pain to the other.

These two sisters, Moodevi and Seedevi, were involved in a violent argument as to who was greater. “I am the elder, so I am greater,” said Moodevi. So, one day the two went to the Qutbiyyat (RAL.) who asked them, “What is the argument about? Why are you fighting?” Moodevi said, “Am I not prettier than my sister? To all the world, I am the elder. After all, I am the one connected to karma, creation, and everything. So I am more beautiful, am I not?”

Now, since ignorance comes before wisdom, it is older. And since wisdom develops later, it is younger. In the same way, karma and arrogance are there before goodness develops.

The Qutbiyyat (RAL.) then looked at the two and saw that they were different. And yet he had to give an answer that would not hurt either one. So he said, “Both of you are beautiful, but in order to decide between you, I need to observe you coming and going. Please walk over that way.” After they walked a short distance away from him, he asked them to turn around and come toward him. Then he told Moodevi (the elder), “You look beautiful when you are going, and you, Seedevi, look beautiful when you are coming.” So both went away happy, shaking their hips. The meaning of this story is that it is beautiful when ignorance leaves us, and it is beautiful when wisdom and truth come to us.

Similarly, in the world, good and bad do come and go. But when our older quality of ignorance leaves us, it is both good for us and beautiful. And when truth and God’s qualities come to us, it is truly beautiful. There need be no pain to either. Without hurting the older one (ignorance), you must tell it to go away from you. And without causing any pain to the younger one (wisdom), you must invite it to come to you. If you can be like this, if you can treat each one appropriately, you will be at peace.

So, whenever trouble comes toward you, you should say, “I surrender to the will of God (tawakkul-‘alallah).” Then it will not stay. It will go away. And when no trouble befalls you, when things are fine, you should still hand it over to God, saying, “All praise be to God (al-hamdu lillah).” Then there will be no need to hold on to either. Neither will stay. Let them come and go. Once the older one goes and the younger comes, only one will be there, and there will be no fighting. Not two, only one. In that state, only God is there. The ‘I’ is gone. Karma is gone. Arrogance is gone. Illusion (maya) is gone. If nothing is retained, then That will come. Once That comes, there will be no suffering, no sadness, no ‘I’, no differences. Only That will remain. Nothing else. That is how you have to be. If you can understand this state, there will be no bundles to tie up, no burdens to carry along, nothing to hold on to inside, nothing to show. Only That will remain.

1. Moodevi is said to be the goddess of misfortune, bringing bad luck, poverty, sickness, unhappiness, and depression. Seedevi is the goddess of fortune, bringing happiness, wealth, and health to the house where she chooses to stay.

2. Qutbiyyat (ral.) (A) Divine analytic wisdom, the sixth level of consciousness, which explains the truth of God; Qutb is also a title used for the great holy men of Islam.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
I had some exposure to Christianity and by the age of 11 had figured out that if you read what Jesus taught and how Christians actually act those are two vastly different things. My guess is that if you are a Christian your understanding of your own religion is as fucked up as your view of Islam and what it teaches.

The following person was a Sufi Muslim teacher whom I heard about some years back. I have quoted him here because of his Islamic roots and because he speaks of a way of looking at the world that I believe does not need a belief in God to understand, but which when understood will produce a mind at peace that will make you like a believer.

M. R. Bawa Muhaiyaddeen: When the rain falls, all the rainwater flows toward the sea. Some of the water may collect in ponds or lakes. As more rainwater continues to flow into these ponds, it pushes out the water already there, and the new water remains in its place. The water that was there earlier is very happy as it makes good its escape, saying, “I am free! I have escaped from the stench and the dirt. How much I had to suffer! Dogs’ urine, jackals’ urine, cows’ urine-I had to endure so much filth and smell! Now I am free from all that!” So saying, the pond water runs toward the vast ocean.

On the other hand, the dry earth feels very happy and comforted as it soaks up the rainwater. It goes on drinking and drinking that water, until finally, when it cannot drink any more, it turns into muddy sludge, filled with decaying leaves and debris. Earlier, people could lie on that earth, cows and goats could sleep on it, but now no one can even walk on it. Its beauty is gone.

And what of the fresh rainwater that displaced the stagnant water in the pond? Worms, insects, reptiles, and odors will come into that water all too soon, and it too will lose its beauty and take on a stench. This fresh water that helped the old water to escape from its suffering, soon will suffer the same fate-to become stagnant, dirty, and smelly. When it was on its way, it was joyful in anticipation, and when it first arrived it was still happy. But as it experiences being in the pond, it will begin to understand the difficulty and suffering that goes with it.

There is a Tamil story about a quarrel between two sisters-Moodevi and Seedevi. One represents right, the other represents wrong. Now, both right and wrong must exist in this world. Darkness and light are also necessary. But even though darkness and light both have to exist in the world, neither one need suffer or cause pain to the other.

These two sisters, Moodevi and Seedevi, were involved in a violent argument as to who was greater. “I am the elder, so I am greater,” said Moodevi. So, one day the two went to the Qutbiyyat (RAL.) who asked them, “What is the argument about? Why are you fighting?” Moodevi said, “Am I not prettier than my sister? To all the world, I am the elder. After all, I am the one connected to karma, creation, and everything. So I am more beautiful, am I not?”

Now, since ignorance comes before wisdom, it is older. And since wisdom develops later, it is younger. In the same way, karma and arrogance are there before goodness develops.

The Qutbiyyat (RAL.) then looked at the two and saw that they were different. And yet he had to give an answer that would not hurt either one. So he said, “Both of you are beautiful, but in order to decide between you, I need to observe you coming and going. Please walk over that way.” After they walked a short distance away from him, he asked them to turn around and come toward him. Then he told Moodevi (the elder), “You look beautiful when you are going, and you, Seedevi, look beautiful when you are coming.” So both went away happy, shaking their hips. The meaning of this story is that it is beautiful when ignorance leaves us, and it is beautiful when wisdom and truth come to us.

Similarly, in the world, good and bad do come and go. But when our older quality of ignorance leaves us, it is both good for us and beautiful. And when truth and God’s qualities come to us, it is truly beautiful. There need be no pain to either. Without hurting the older one (ignorance), you must tell it to go away from you. And without causing any pain to the younger one (wisdom), you must invite it to come to you. If you can be like this, if you can treat each one appropriately, you will be at peace.

So, whenever trouble comes toward you, you should say, “I surrender to the will of God (tawakkul-‘alallah).” Then it will not stay. It will go away. And when no trouble befalls you, when things are fine, you should still hand it over to God, saying, “All praise be to God (al-hamdu lillah).” Then there will be no need to hold on to either. Neither will stay. Let them come and go. Once the older one goes and the younger comes, only one will be there, and there will be no fighting. Not two, only one. In that state, only God is there. The ‘I’ is gone. Karma is gone. Arrogance is gone. Illusion (maya) is gone. If nothing is retained, then That will come. Once That comes, there will be no suffering, no sadness, no ‘I’, no differences. Only That will remain. Nothing else. That is how you have to be. If you can understand this state, there will be no bundles to tie up, no burdens to carry along, nothing to hold on to inside, nothing to show. Only That will remain.

1. Moodevi is said to be the goddess of misfortune, bringing bad luck, poverty, sickness, unhappiness, and depression. Seedevi is the goddess of fortune, bringing happiness, wealth, and health to the house where she chooses to stay.

2. Qutbiyyat (ral.) (A) Divine analytic wisdom, the sixth level of consciousness, which explains the truth of God; Qutb is also a title used for the great holy men of Islam.

Thank you for this beautiful post. It is profound.

Since we are on the topic of Islam, I have had the good fortune of knowing some religious Muslims in who I have sensed something similar to the above. A sense of calm and acceptance which isn't to be found in regular folks. That submission to the will of Allah, as they say
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
Oh while are on the absurd topic of Muhammad's wife age - maybe it would help for people to know that not too long ago there was this character named Juliet whose age was 13. Imagine what it would do today to Shakespeare. But I suspect the kind who get so riled up over these things aren't exactly the kind to partake in literature. So maybe its all good! Unless of course it made it to the outrage of the day (or hour) news story, then all hell would break loose!
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
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Oh while are on the absurd topic of Muhammad's wife age - maybe it would help for people to know that not too long ago there was this character named Juliet whose age was 13. Imagine what it would do today to Shakespeare. But I suspect the kind who get so riled up over these things aren't exactly the kind to partake in literature. So maybe its all good! Unless of course it made it to the outrage of the day (or hour) news story, then all hell would break loose!
a 13 y/o teen girl is quite different then a 9y/o even in modern day societies
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
a 13 y/o teen girl is quite different then a 9y/o even in modern day societies

Again you are getting lost in specifics, missing the broader point. These things and age numbers are not important. Throughout history men and women have been considered and lived as adults at puberty. Not by some artificially defined number by some authority. Even today in indigenous cultures, people live the same way. No big deal. Plus people mature early in those cultures, not like the modern one where too many people spend their entire lives in an adolescent stage. There are a gazillion ways in which people in the modern culture live and things they do, that would be outright abhorrent and morally repugnant in both native and ancient cultures. So there...
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
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you guys know that we actually know pretty much nothing about muhammed and nearly everything said about him wasn't put to paper until a couple centuries after he purportedly existed, right?
 
Reactions: whm1974

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
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you guys know that we actually know pretty much nothing about muhammed and nearly everything said about him wasn't put to paper until a couple centuries after he purportedly existed, right?

From what I know, the Koran was compiled within 10 or so years after Muhammad. Of course not in paper form but whatever form it was at that time. And it does contain a lot about Muhammad
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
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From what I know, the Koran was compiled within 10 or so years after Muhammad. Of course not in paper form but whatever form it was at that time. And it does contain a lot about Muhammad
And how do you verify if it is true or not? To be clear, I highly doubt that any old holy writings are proper guides to Ethics and Morality at all.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
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From what I know, the Koran was compiled within 10 or so years after Muhammad. Of course not in paper form but whatever form it was at that time. And it does contain a lot about Muhammad

well, that's the story at least.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
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well, that's the story at least.

Yeah it’s hard to know facts with certainty from say 300 years ago. So no way of knowing for sure.

For people who follow the religions, it is the message and structure it gives to their lives is what matters
 
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