is declawing a cat cruel?

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: moonbit

Originally posted by: QueBert
Cats love to scratch, I don't exactly think people who do it are intentially trying to be cruel, most of them are just too lazy to try to train the cats not to scratch sh!t like furniture. A scratching post will save your stuff you don't want shreaded and the cat stays happy, everyone wins.

QFT

Regardless of how cruel it is, declawing is unnecessary. Save yourself some $$ and go buy a squirt bottle and the scratching post. Soak the cat for scratching anything but the scratching post. Problem solved.

works good if you are home. so what happens if you are at work and your cat decides to shred your new leather couch? beat the cat when you get home saying BAD BAD BAD kitty?

 

[0roo0roo]

no more cruel than having its genitals altered for your convience.
people get too self righteous over this as if its perfectly natural to keep a pet for your amusement. they just draw the line where they want to and damn everyone else with absurd babble. the cat isn't traumatized ok? its no more cruel than not giving into the kitties need to kill little creatures. is depriving it of its natural behavior cruel? perhaps why own a creature if so..blabbity blah blah

 

[KK]

life is cruel. is declawing a cat cruel, sure. do I give a ****** it's cruel, no, it's just a damn cat.

 

[Capitalizt]

just clip the claws...I keep the clipper in my desk, and whenever my cat jumps on my lap to chill and/or sleep, it's easy to clip them in about a minute.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: alkemystIt is relevant. Even trimmed claws can damage and many cats even with training (and dogs) do not like their toes clipped. I clip my cat's rear toes about once a month and they are fine with it...many do not have my experience nor willing to spend the time with the animal.

I'd like to see how properly trimmed claws can cause damage, it doesn't make any sense to me. They are blunt at that point. If you use nail clippers or something that causes the nails to crack, then they could theoretically pierce things. I use nail scissors and they cut pretty cleanly.

You simply don't have enough experience.

Think of things like say lace, or net...etc. If you have a room full of 1x12 and cinder block furniture then it's fairly indestructable.

I have been pretty pro-animal since I was young. My first word was my dog's name...not my parent's much to their amazement. Starting young I began my education in Zoology and volunteered / worked alot for vets and animal places.

I have three cats currently, all litter mates and people are amazed at their behavior they come and are very friendly and like attention. The sad thing is their other 2 litter mates went to homes where it was thought just throw the cat in and let it come and go...give it water/food and that's it. One cat I found was taken to a lethal pound as it had basically become feral being an indoor/outdoor cat since weaned. The other is a hider and biter. Whenever people come home it disappears including the owners except for food. I wish i could have adopted all 5 now. I originally wanted 2 but all but one was taken, so I signed on for him...by the next day two others came back. I had asked the person that found them if anyone decided to not want them I would take the other brothers.

A cat's toe nails are blunt, but they grow fast...all it takes is one 'accident' where the owner now looses $2000 in furniture and now hates the cat. If you have the time to keep the claws constantly clipped and can afford an occasional accident then that's great.

I personally feel an indoor cat is happier and has a better life declawed and altered.

I also feel this forum is the wrong place for any serious animal debate as you have those that simply jump on the bandwagon they have heard.

We have constantly heard declawing = losing the first phalange on each finger...it's anatomically the same, but physiologically not. The post above about the cat not using a coffee mug like we do was great..but they still like the mug and sticking there faces in: "HAI MORNIN'. 2 KWEEM, 2 SOOGA, PEAS! KTHXBYE!"

Also declawing in days of old was done with usually the same tool to cut the toenails. The skin was pulled back, the first digit clipped and a stitch or superglue to seal the wound. Even with this barbaric sounding procedure (actually it is very fast and not much trama) most cats were playing the next day as if nothing happened. Usually care was needed to get them to not play for fear of opening the closed wound (my idiot did this jumping about 6' to his cat bed and then right back down again).

Today there is laser procedures as well as a simple tendon cut that keeps the claw intact, but it's not retractable.

Cats are trainable, but it's beyond the skillset and time that the average owner has. I spent alot of time with mine as kittens getting them used to nail clipping, water, being held, getting down when told, stopping when told. My tools were time, strictness and a trusty can of air and spray bottle. Today all it takes is for me to touch the can of air and they all get down from whereever they are at and come over to me trying to be as friendly and innocent as possible.

Again, there are complete books on anyone of these topics and even then people get it wrong. The same is with any pet though, you have the person looking at them as a companion and the person looking at them as a possession. In those two schools of thought one is willing to shell out a couple grand for a serious, but curable condition...the other is looking at $100 or less to put them down and start over with Fluffy the Second.

If there was a shortage of animals, then by all means if one has to alter them in anyway pass on them unless you can offer a way better standard of living for them. Unfortunately this is not the case, there are too few homes for the animals today (mostly caused by the those same owners that think "let them run wild") and everyday it's a mass murder of them.

One of the charities I donate to is www.10thlife.org which is within 2 hours of my home. This is their latest newsletter, 1030 cats

Their paypal is here.

If anyone heard of the 'Chipper' story, this was the place as well as the vet for my cats and one I worked for in the past, Dr. Zeitlin.

Å

 

[lokiju]

I have two cats and had their fronts removed.

I had the laser removal method which reduced their recovery time.

They didn't act any different after they healed contrary to what these anti declaw sites claim.

It cost about $150 each cat IIRC.

They run around all day long just like before it was done.

I was very against the idea when my wife and I got them as I never had any declawed cats as a kid but she always did. I don't regret it now though.

 

[lokiju]

Originally posted by: QueBert
Cats love to scratch, I don't exactly think people who do it are intentially trying to be cruel, most of them are just too lazy to try to train the cats not to scratch sh!t like furniture. A scratching post will save your stuff you don't want shreaded and the cat stays happy, everyone wins.

Have you ever actually had a cat?

 

[lokiju]

Originally posted by: torpid
It is debatable whether it is cruel. It is an unnecessary surgery that involves the equivalent of cutting off fingers at the first knuckle. There is a recovery period that is not pleasant for the cat most likely. There are potential complications.

In that regard, I'd say it's slightly cruel since it is an unnecessary surgery for the convenience of the owner. It'd be like forcing your cat to get liposuction or lasik surgery.

I have one cat with claws and one cat without. Both arrived that way from the humane society. There is a very noticeable difference between the two.

I don't know whether I buy into the long term psychological effects BS, but my cat with claws is much more adept at playing with all cat toys and doing general cat activities. My other cat tends to stay low to the ground and rarely tries to climb up cat trees, which are much more difficult for her to climb since she can't dig in with the front claws and pull herself up like the other cat.

She can't do the full range of cat playing things, such as swiping a toy with a tail and thereby hooking it. Her method is kind of sad, she just stomps it and tries to pull it toward her, and gives up. When I had carpet, it was really hard to find a toy that interested her for long. With hardwood floors it is better since the toys naturally fly all over the place when batted.

She also tends to be victimized by the cat with claws because she can't really defend herself that well with just rear claws.

Also, when I pick her up, she digs her rear claws into my chest and in general gets very stressed out when she doesn't have her rear feet planted because she can't get stabilized on anything with just her front paws.

So, cruel? I don't know... but it has a negative impact on the cat, or at least my cat. And it is rare that a cat cannot adapt to human rules about what to claw and not claw. Scratching posts and catnip pretty much take care of all of it.

I wouldn't get the cat declawed.

I'm not trying to be all pro declawing but saying that the reason one cat acted the way it does is simply because it was decalawed is silly.

I have two cats that are brother and sister, one is fat, one is skinny.

The skinny one runs all over the place like crazy and plays with toys all the time without issue while the other on seems just to simply be lazy. This is how they were before getting declawed and is how they still are.

 

[HomeAppraiser]

Yes, No, Yes, Yes, and Yes.

Yes it is cruel, like cutting off your finger at the lowest knuckel.

No my outdoor cat was not declawed.

Yes I asked my wife to have her cat's front claws removed because she is a mean little b!tch. The cat not my wife.

Yes we had a cat that became allergic to everything and would scratch her inner-eyelid out so we had her declawed. Both declawed cats are indoor only.

No we did not get our new kitten declawed so she could stand up to the b!tch cat.

And yes we need a new couch now!

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: alkemystAlso a domestic cat doesn't use it's front claws for attacking as much as holding prey and climbing. Both of which don't happen in a home.

They do if you buy cat toys or cat furniture.

my cats can pick up a toy and play on cat furniture without claws.

Do you realize you are all over the place with your views in posts in this thread?

 

[dug777]

When you see how much a cat loves stretching massively on a tree (or a chair ), there's only one correct answer to this.

It is cruel.

There's no way a cat can effectively hang off something and stretch so well without them. You're denying your cat this pleasure because you're not prepared to train it to use a scratching post or an old chair.

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: sourceninja
Hmm lets think about this. A cat is an animal. Animals have instincts. one instinct of a cat is to bury its crap. So you show it a box of sand and it burys its crap there. Without training it might also bury it in potted plants, etc. But another instinct is to crap in the relative same area. This means once it goes in the box, it usually stays going in the box. Thus there is training, you might just be lucky it decided to poop there first.

Actually the mother teaches the cat this. Cats taken too early often learn to use the box, but never to cover it. The instinct is to not crap where they eat and sleep....not necessarily to bury it as they usually have no predators in a home.

Originally posted by: sourceninja
The cat post is not the same as crapping. Cats instinct is to mark its territory by clawing, its instinct is to find things to claw to help it shed claws and keep them sharp. This means you need to spend a very good deal of time teaching it what is right and what is wrong with positive reinforcement from a kitten age. Or find the substance it likes to scratch the most and make it the scratching post.

Again just as you are talking instincts and all that. Cat's use their face, paws and urine to mark territory. Fixing a cat usually curbs the urine problem, but it's not the claws that they are using to mark the territory with, it's glands in their paws. Cats will still claw/paw at things even with the scratching post. All cats are different though and most peoples homes are as well...

Originally posted by: sourceninja
Cats are very picky, they require a lot of work, even more work if you have more then one cat as the cats interactions with his cat buddy can screw it up even more. For example, maybe the other cats territory is where the scratch post is, so the first cat won't use it. If it was as simple as dropping in a scratch post and showing the cat to it, we wouldn't even have this discussion.

Cats are some of the least need for working with animals out there. They don't have to have attention, but they do learn to like it if you spend enough time with them.

Originally posted by: sourceninja
The worst part about declawing is this. No one is making you get a cat. You choose to have a cat, then you choose to not pay attention to its behavior (which everyone is well aware cats scratch stuff). Then you decide the cat needs to be injured to satisfy your desires. In reality, you should of just not gotten a cat.

Its like people who build near highways and airports then sue about noise.

Total invalid argument. While no one is forcing anyone to adopt, it's in the best interest of the cat to at least find a home as more than likely it will be put to sleep.

I really think you know nothing about cats other than things you have picked up here and there. Much like someone that watched St. Elsewhere or any of the other hospital shows and think they know medicine now.

The best part is, with as little as I apparently know about cats, I have had well over a dozen. And not a single one has EVER clawed my furniture. I'm just freaking lucky. Or it could be that I spend time with them and freaking TRAIN them.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: QueBert
Cats love to scratch, I don't exactly think people who do it are intentially trying to be cruel, most of them are just too lazy to try to train the cats not to scratch sh!t like furniture. A scratching post will save your stuff you don't want shreaded and the cat stays happy, everyone wins.

Want a bet? We tried a cat a while back, and we even bought it a cat tree scratch post thingy and make sure it was taller than anything else in the house.

But that little bitch insisted on climbing the one thing it knew would get it in deep ******: my $4000 Definitive Technology speakers. Definitive speakers are huge towers that look like black monoliths that have black piano gloss end caps on the top and bottom, and a sort of fabric tube sock that stretches tight over the entire length of the tower. Irresistible to a cat I'm sure.

She'd walk along the wall acting all cute, stop and stare at you and flop and purr if you looked at her, and if you watched her eyes, she would go back and forth between looking you in the eye and looking at the speakers. She would inch close to the side of the room where they were, and all of the sudden she would bolt to the speakers and climb them.

Second time this happened the cat was given to her parents who had other cats.

Training and teaching a pet is one thing, but I will not tolerate deliberate defiance when it comes to my expensive toys.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: sourceninja
The best part is, with as little as I apparently know about cats, I have had well over a dozen. And not a single one has EVER clawed my furniture. I'm just freaking lucky. Or it could be that I spend time with them and freaking TRAIN them.

what furniture did you have?

Also why do you speak of a dozen in past tense?

My cats are trained, however go troll!

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: dug777
When you see how much a cat loves stretching massively on a tree (or a chair ), there's only one correct answer to this.

It is cruel.

There's no way a cat can effectively hang off something and stretch so well without them. You're denying your cat this pleasure because you're not prepared to train it to use a scratching post or an old chair.

that made no sense.

It's like ok, I am married. Some chick digs me and wants to go somewhere. Do I blame my wife?

try again.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Want a bet? We tried a cat a while back, and we even bought it a cat tree scratch post thingy and make sure it was taller than anything else in the house.

But that little bitch insisted on climbing the one thing it knew would get it in deep ******: my $4000 Definitive Technology speakers. Definitive speakers are huge towers that look like black monoliths that have black piano gloss end caps on the top and bottom, and a sort of fabric tube sock that stretches tight over the entire length of the tower. Irresistible to a cat I'm sure.

She'd walk along the wall acting all cute, stop and stare at you and flop and purr if you looked at her, and if you watched her eyes, she would go back and forth between looking you in the eye and looking at the speakers. She would inch close to the side of the room where they were, and all of the sudden she would bolt to the speakers and climb them.

Second time this happened the cat was given to her parents who had other cats.

Training and teaching a pet is one thing, but I will not tolerate deliberate defiance when it comes to my expensive toys.

wow you really talked about your DT speakers so much but never mentioned which. The BP6's are hardly monoliths...then again either are the BP8's...

Regardless the sock is easily replaceable.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: QueBert

Originally posted by: shocksyde
I sure hope the people that voted "yes" didn't get their baby boys circumsized.

what's one have to do with the other? I mean a declawed cat that gets out of the house will get royally owned in a cat fight. Foreskin doesn't serve any useful purpose. Weird argument. I don't think the op was refering to the actual declawing in a pain sense, but more of a cruel as what it does to the cat long term.

Look for Titandiddly's thread on circumcision. He said that after his circumcision, he lost a LOT of sensation. Cutting it off removes a helluva lot of nerve endings.

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Cats don't care if they're declawed. After the first month, they don't remember the claws anymore, and go on with happy lives. It's people who only look at half the picture who think it's unbelievably cruel.

Currently there are 4 cats here, 3 are declawed, and there is absolutely no difference in playfulness between those who are declawed, and the one that isn't. In fact, one of the declawed cats is by far the most playful with cat toys.

My thoughts exactly.
My cats are only declawed in the front. They don't seem to have been inhibited at all.


I had one cat which had her front claws. She apparently had never been trained in terms of what to scratch. She also didn't respond properly to training. Instead of learning to scratch the various things we'd provided - corrugated cardboard scratchers and scratching posts, she still preferred furniture. Whatever we'd to to dissuade her from the furniture, she simply learned to avoid the punishment. If myself or my parents were in the room, she'd use the cardboard scratcher, but only briefly. If our attention wasn't on her, she went right after the furniture.
For all I know she was mildly insane. She'd been kept in a small room for most of her life, and neglected too. She was adopted, or maybe "rescued" would be a better term, as an adult. She had odd habits which I'd not seen in other cats. She'd sometimes seem to ration her food. And she was meticulous about the litter box. She went almost systematically in a pattern, carefully burying everything, moreso than most cats I've seen. I guess she did it that way since her litter box had been changed so rarely. This house must have seemed like a luxury estate compared to what she'd known before.

Originally posted by: novasatori

Originally posted by: wizboy11
Rip our your finger and toe nails.
How ya feel?

if I was under anesthesia I suppose I'd feel fine.

And if it was done at a young age, I'd learn to adapt quite easily. If I had the mentality of a cat, I don't think I'd have the capacity to assign blame for anything. Besides, what if in exchange for those finger and toenails, you were offered a life of luxury? You'd have meals provided, a large home, and creatures that otherwise attended to your needs. That, or live on the streets. Yes, sure, take my fingernails.

Originally posted by: alkemyst
Also the whole 'finger tip' debate is a layman's one. Cat's do not use their paws how we use our hands. The loss of that digit to them is not as traumatic as it is to a human.

Good point. They lack opposable thumbs, so they're not going to be gripping things anyway. And my one cat was quite proficient at using his clawless front paw to swipe the supper bowl away from my other cat. She never got the hang of that technique for some reason.

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
The next thing people will say is that neutering your pets is cruel. You think a cat is going to be emotionally scarred because you cut its claws off? Cut its nuts off and see how it feels.

I shouldn't find this hilarious, but I do. :laugh:
*chop* "How's that feel???!?"

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: exdeath

Want a bet? We tried a cat a while back, and we even bought it a cat tree scratch post thingy and make sure it was taller than anything else in the house.

But that little bitch insisted on climbing the one thing it knew would get it in deep ******: my $4000 Definitive Technology speakers. Definitive speakers are huge towers that look like black monoliths that have black piano gloss end caps on the top and bottom, and a sort of fabric tube sock that stretches tight over the entire length of the tower. Irresistible to a cat I'm sure.

She'd walk along the wall acting all cute, stop and stare at you and flop and purr if you looked at her, and if you watched her eyes, she would go back and forth between looking you in the eye and looking at the speakers. She would inch close to the side of the room where they were, and all of the sudden she would bolt to the speakers and climb them.

Second time this happened the cat was given to her parents who had other cats.

Training and teaching a pet is one thing, but I will not tolerate deliberate defiance when it comes to my expensive toys.

wow you really talked about your DT speakers so much but never mentioned which. The BP6's are hardly monoliths...then again either are the BP8's...

Regardless the sock is easily replaceable.

BP3000TLs sorry. Can barely see them on the edges of the pic for size reference. A pair of BP6's don't cost $4000 at any rate I automatically think of the BP2000 and BP3000 when talking about DT speakers, but they make all sorts of stuff now.

You seem familiar with Def Tech; fan? Before I got these I never knew you could hear subtle things like the sound of the ridges of the fingerprints sliding along the windings of a guitar string or tell the difference between DTS and DD or 128kbps and 320kbps. Awesome stuff. There is way more accurate and expensive stuff out there for music only, but these things are among the best for double duty for both clean music and slab shaking movies and gaming without breaking a sweat. It actually changed my taste for music, I enjoy listening to stuff that has two distinct spectral lines in the highs and the lows simultaneously rather than crowded noise. The sound of a heavy bass guitar with the ear piercing sound of a triangle being struck at the same time and ringing your ears, the bass stopping instantly on command... ok I'm rambling now. Before these I thought my Optimus/Pioneer junk with pro logic was awesome...

Yeah the socks are, but she climbed all the way to the top and the sock will easily give and sink into the drivers with risk of claw puncture the way she threw her weight around to climb them to the top as fast as she could.

She knew she wasn't allowed, she scrambled up them with full force and you could hear the ripping of the fabric (even though it wasn't ripping). Fortunately none of the drivers were punctured, though individual drivers aren't too expensive to replace, I'd rather not have to replace them every month.

Cats have wide ranging personalities, and this one was a bit defiant and feral and not compatible with us. I'm not exaggerating at all, we tried for a week to train her and would yell no, chase her away, lock her up in the bedroom for a few hours, etc. every time she tried. First 5 minutes of being let out, I'd turn around and see her halfway towards the speakers and she'd stop cold in her tracks and stare me in the eye. When I got up to intervene, all of the sudden her pupils enlarged 110% and she bolted straight for them and nothing else. Never mind we got her the tallest cat tree we could find so she could feel superior being above everything else. We couldn't trust her and it wasn't fair to keep her locked up in a bedroom all time.

 

[Raduque]

Cruel? Depends. If you do it for convenience, yes. Furniture is easily replaceable, and minor scratches heal. I would only consider it for health reasons (claws growing wrong, or the cat is using them to damage itself). Though, I did have a cat once years ago who was declawed. He would box with you rather then trying to scratch without claws like some cats do.

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Ya know what's cruel? Seeing your $2,000 leather couch get ripped to shreds by some psychotic feline terror!

I let my cat keep his claws, though. As long as he doesn't attack any of my good furniture, he'll get to keep them

That's what you deserve for buying leather furniture! I'll never understand the fascination with leather upholstery, in cars or homes.


An alternate to following around a cat with a squirt bottle 24/7 is to either put down some tinfoil where the cat usually stands to scratch, or hang the tinfoil on your furniture where the cat scratches. They absolutely hate the feel of the stuff.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Raduque
Cruel? Depends. If you do it for convenience, yes. Furniture is easily replaceable, and minor scratches heal. I would only consider it for health reasons (claws growing wrong, or the cat is using them to damage itself). Though, I did have a cat once years ago who was declawed. He would box with you rather then trying to scratch without claws like some cats do.

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Ya know what's cruel? Seeing your $2,000 leather couch get ripped to shreds by some psychotic feline terror!

I let my cat keep his claws, though. As long as he doesn't attack any of my good furniture, he'll get to keep them

That's what you deserve for buying leather furniture! I'll never understand the fascination with leather upholstery, in cars or homes.


An alternate to following around a cat with a squirt bottle 24/7 is to either put down some tinfoil where the cat usually stands to scratch, or hang the tinfoil on your furniture where the cat scratches. They absolutely hate the feel of the stuff.

I like leather because its virtually liquid proof, doesn't stain or soak up odors, drink up a glass of beverage into the underlying foam and mold when someone spills something, etc.

Basically zero maintenance other than wiping it down with leather condition ever so many moons, and zero paranoia with rambunctious guests over for parties, etc.

Usually I thought cats prefer a rough porous cloth surface (like speaker fabric :|)that hooks their claws because they like the ripping feeling, so they wouldn't care for leather.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: dug777
When you see how much a cat loves stretching massively on a tree (or a chair ), there's only one correct answer to this.

It is cruel.

There's no way a cat can effectively hang off something and stretch so well without them. You're denying your cat this pleasure because you're not prepared to train it to use a scratching post or an old chair.

that made no sense.

It's like ok, I am married. Some chick digs me and wants to go somewhere. Do I blame my wife?

try again.

You're a moron.

Why on earth would you blame your wife? She hasn't removed some part of you that you use to relax, has she? I hope not

There's no part of your analogy that is comparable with you getting the vet to rip out your cat's claws, unless you really are suggesting your wife ripped your wang off?

 

[dug777]

As to those who suggests cats don't use their claws that much, and couldn't possibly be worse off without them, have you ever actually watched a cat with claws playing?

Ours extends her claws when grabbing anything, so she's certainly making great use of them She is allowed to hang off/climb/scratch my computer chair, she has a scratching post, and except for the odd stretch on the carpet, she doesn't mess with anything else in our house.

I've no doubt that they adapt to life without them pretty readily, but you cannot deny that there are things cats will not be able to do, that they can do with claws, and which they appear to take great pleasure in.

Taking those things away from them because you're a lazy jerk who can't be bothered to train it seems pretty arrogant and cruel to me

EDIT: I might add that declawing cats is extremely uncommon here, whereas half of yankland appears to be into it?

 

[0roo0roo]

right...as if declawed cats can't "play" dude get over yourself. who are you kidding.

whats arrogant and cruel is chopping the cats nuts off so you can more conveniently own the pet while depriving it of its natural right to procreation

antideclaw folks are basically religiously against it

 

[oldman420]

Originally posted by: Skiddex
so i was looking on google trying to figure out how much it might cost to declaw my cat and came across tons of sites about how cruel it is. i never knew that there were people so passionate about this kind of thing...thought it was widely accepted for domestic cats.

your thoughts?

Imagine having your fingertips cut off so that you can't regrow fingernails.
I say if you have a cat and value your furniture that much get rid of the cat

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
right...as if declawed cats can't "play" dude get over yourself. who are you kidding.

whats arrogant and cruel is chopping the cats nuts off so you can more conveniently own the pet while depriving it of its natural right to procreation

antideclaw folks are basically religiously against it

I don't recall talking about about de-sexing cats?

Sticking to the topic, try reading what i typed before making yourself look stupid