Is elective abortion a woman taking or avoiding responsibility?

[Ancalagon44]

Child support is for the child's welfare.

It's not a matter of what happened during conception/gestation. It's about giving the kid a fair shot regardless of the parents' issues.

Lets not pretend this is some sort of punishment the court places on men.

If it was purely for the child's welfare, a lot more women would abort unwanted pregnancies so that they could children when they really wanted and could afford them. When they had a stable partner around to assist in raising the child.

The standard should be that if the man does not want the child, he should not be required to pay child support. She could always abort the baby if he does not want it. If he doesn't want it, and she does not abort, she is bringing a child into this world knowing that he will only have one devoted parent. The other parent will resent him.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I suppose if you're going to be willfully dishonest, you can always claim to be right.

I've not been dishonest. The facts remain as I have stated, and no amount of pictures will refute them.

You said there's no such thing as an unborn human being.

There isn't.

I showed you one.

No, you didn't. That is a lie.

That's a pretty straightforward refutation.

Only an idiot would think that.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Is it your position that a woman should be allowed to get an abortion on the day before her due date?

Depends on the circumstances. On simple demand? No. At the recommendation of a qualified medical professional that is subject to review by a suitably accredited medical review board? Yes.

What about after labor has started but before delivery is complete?

No, for reasons already stated.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Fetus=human being. Science has been over this.

False.

A fetus is human. A fetus is not a human being. A "human being" is a legal term, not a scientific one. This is the fact that you are dishonestly denying.

Because it's completely arbitrary. We pull it out of nowhere and pretend its official.

No, it isn't. It is the event which distinguishes it as a metabolically independent organism. That's what people are.

 

[DrDoug]

If she makes the decisions, why is he responsible for at least 50-50 (likely more considering how child support is biased towards women in the USA) of the responsibilities? I could agree that he should be responsible for impregnating her. If she wants an abortion, the man should have to pay at least half of the costs. She is 100% responsible for giving birth to a child, however, therefore she should bare the entire burden for her decision.

Most fathers paying support aren't paying anything near 50% of a child's upkeep so keep dreaming. Those who are paying large sums are usually doing so because they were in arrears for years and have accumulated a large bill or were in a marriage where there were some assets to divide. Regarding her being 100% responsible for giving birth to the child? Did she get pregnant on her own or did the guy impregnate her? Yeah... Here's a great solution for you guys who are bitching about this or too lazy to get a vasectomy: How about getting every woman you sleep with to first sign a notarized agreement as to what happens if she gets pregnant?

The problem with that idea is that a lot fewer guys would be getting laid, right?

Yeah...

 

[DrDoug]

Why do leftists love single mothers so much? Were you the result of a single mother?

I am far from a leftist but yes, I am the product of a single mother. As are my five other siblings. Our hard drinking, truck driving devout Catholic father refused to let our Mom use birth control and we were the result. His response once he realized what he got himself into? He ran off with her best friend, fleeing to another state to avoid paying support. When they finally nailed him for child support, the bastard tried to take off with us so he wouldn't have to pay it. We were very happy when the cops came with Mom and took us away from him. My Mom overcame the adversity of being a young mother with a minimum education and bunch of kids who went on to a career that included secretary of the meatcutters local, an aide to Congressman Tom Foley and eventually ended with her retiring from Boeing after "her plane", the 777, entered production. She was on one of the design teams and we all got our 777 shirts from her prior to their announcing it (and a promise to not wear them until the plane was announced!).

So yes, I am the product of a single mother and that colors my view on this subject. That and I am a man so I know firsthand what assholes some of us are to women.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

They also aren't around the child anywhere near 50%. The median is nearly $5,000 per year, and keep in mind that's tax free. Granted, there are a lot of deadbeats that don't pay a cent as seen in the following figure, but regardless it's the amount dictated by a judge. That's a lot of money for making the simple, personal choice of not having an abortion.

I'm pretty sure that a notarized statement wouldn't hold up to a child custody judge depending on their whim.

EDIT: That was irt your earlier post. Your family clearly turned out well and I wouldn't suggest that everyone that is a single mother is so because of selfishness. Your mother already had five children with the guy before he left; that makes him responsible for his children and from the sounds of it, he deserved every reaming by the child support justice system he could get. That's the exception though, not the norm of single motherhood.

 

[DrDoug]

They also aren't around the child anywhere near 50%. The median is nearly $5,000 per year, and keep in mind that's tax free. Granted, there are a lot of deadbeats that don't pay a cent as seen in the following figure, but regardless it's the amount dictated by a judge. That's a lot of money for making the simple, personal choice of not having an abortion.

I'm pretty sure that a notarized statement wouldn't hold up to a child custody judge depending on their whim.

EDIT: That was irt your earlier post. Your family clearly turned out well and I wouldn't suggest that everyone that is a single mother is so because of selfishness. Your mother already had five children with the guy before he left; that makes him responsible for his children and from the sounds of it, he deserved every reaming by the child support justice system he could get. That's the exception though, not the norm of single motherhood.

My father's initial child support for six kids was $53.00 a month. That's the bundle my Mom got for being involuntarily single with six kids in 1967. His ending child support was $93.00 a month. If it wasn't for the public assistance she got my Mother wouldn't have made it and made something out of herself. As it was, the PA was a pittance and we were frequently left wanting despite her best efforts. She worked her ass off as a Kelly office temp and worked her way up from there. She wanted more for us and she strove to do so, very successfully. My Mom passed in 2009 and she will always have my love and thoughts. My father passed last week before Thanksgiving and I couldn't care less about it.

The notarized statement might not hold up but then again if you're not going to get a vasectomy and are willing to risk letting her get pregnant, it's probably your best option...lol! A friend of our son's recently got his girlfriend pregnant. The problem for them started when he wanted her to get an abortion and she didn't want one. He kept arguing with her about it (and treating her like crap) and eventually she broke up with him. Now he's pissed because now he's going to be stuck with support and he didn't want the kid. I asked him why he didn't wrap his pecker and he said because "condoms suck". I pointed out that while they suck he wouldn't be in the position he was in if he had used one. It was her decision to have it but it was his decision to have sex without protection that led to the pregnancy.

She wouldn't have had to make the decision if he hadn't made his first.

 

[Meghan54]

Simple question. Is a woman who gets an abortion being responsible and accountable, or selfish and irresponsible? For sake of argument consider it as an unintended but healthy pregnancy and exclude abortions for "live of mother," rape, and other typical exception cases.

Why do you care? Does a woman's decision about this issue impact your life one whit? Didn't think so.....so why do you care?

 

[FerrelGeek]

That's a very touching story; thank you for sharing. I'm glad you had such a great, devoted mom.

I am far from a leftist but yes, I am the product of a single mother. As are my five other siblings. Our hard drinking, truck driving devout Catholic father refused to let our Mom use birth control and we were the result. His response once he realized what he got himself into? He ran off with her best friend, fleeing to another state to avoid paying support. When they finally nailed him for child support, the bastard tried to take off with us so he wouldn't have to pay it. We were very happy when the cops came with Mom and took us away from him. My Mom overcame the adversity of being a young mother with a minimum education and bunch of kids who went on to a career that included secretary of the meatcutters local, an aide to Congressman Tom Foley and eventually ended with her retiring from Boeing after "her plane", the 777, entered production. She was on one of the design teams and we all got our 777 shirts from her prior to their announcing it (and a promise to not wear them until the plane was announced!).

So yes, I am the product of a single mother and that colors my view on this subject. That and I am a man so I know firsthand what assholes some of us are to women.

 

[dank69]

Nope. If she's the mother and she decides to have the kid and not marry him then that's her problem. There was no trap, she put herself in that position. She freely gave of herself just to have some sex while not thinking of the consequences. If she was really concerned about being stuck with a child and not having support then she could have abstained from sex or went and had her tubes tied first.

It's not the job of the man to protect a woman from talking with the wrong lips.

You need to understand the difference between the pregnancy and a born child. If a woman has a child and then decides she doesn't want to care for it, she has to pay the father child support according to the same laws men are held to. There is no discrepancy here.

The pregnancy is where the woman has 100% of the decision as it should be.

 

[dank69]

Why do you care? Does a woman's decision about this issue impact your life one whit? Didn't think so.....so why do you care?

It makes him feel good to know that he is "standing up for the weak (embryo/fetus)." It fills a void in his life to be a hero to unborn souls. It doesn't matter that the logic required to maintain this outlook is awful. You can't take those good feelings away from him and can't overpower the immense suffering these people imagine each embryo/fetus is subjected to. Their brains are wired to pervert reason to ends you can't possibly imagine in order to protect these emotions. He is fighting evil, don't you know that? The liberals must be stopped.

 

[Cozarkian]

False.
No, it isn't. It is the event which distinguishes it as a metabolically independent organism. That's what people are.

Who cares whether you call it an unborn child before this event of a fetus. Based upon your response in post #103, you believe there are at least some limitations that can be placed upon a woman's right to abortion prior to the birthing event. Is there a justification you have for controlling a woman's body at that point other than a balancing between the fetus' right to life against the woman's right to make decisions regarding her own body?

 

[jackstar7]

To avoid forming an opinion that Cerpin Taxt is completely psychotic based upon a statement of opinion that was made in haste without thinking through the natural consequence of said opinion.

If you have no interest in having a reasonable discussion, don't put on airs.

 

[abj13]

"In the parameters you have set..."

An ectopic pregnancy, being a threat to the mother's life as well as an automatic death sentence for the embryo, is not exactly a healthy pregnancy.

False. It is not an "automatic death sentence." I suggest you read more about the medical concept before you speak more about it.

 

[Cozarkian]

If you have no interest in having a reasonable discussion, don't put on airs.

Look right above your post. You'll note that Cerpin Taxt did respond and that based upon his response, I was able to move forward with a far more reasonable discussion than the one we are having, so it is not I that is putting on airs.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Who cares whether you call it an unborn child before this event of a fetus.

Just those of us who care about the truth. It seems that you may not be among us.

Based upon your response in post #103, you believe there are at least some limitations that can be placed upon a woman's right to abortion prior to the birthing event. Is there a justification you have for controlling a woman's body at that point other than a balancing between the fetus' right to life against the woman's right to make decisions regarding her own body?

Yes, there are several important factors. At that late of a stage in pregnancy, the procedures for abortion are not significantly less invasive than birth itself. Additionally, it can be reasonably argued that after such time has elapsed in the term of a pregnancy, the fetus has acquired "squatter's rights" -- that is to say that the mother had ample opportunity to be aware of her pregnancy and decide to terminate it before such point as the day before her due date, as in your hypothetical. Add to that fetal viability which I will take as a given for your hypothetical, and it seems clear that any suggestion of termination of that pregnancy at that stage should be subject to medical review by a qualified physician and/or board of medical professionals.

There is room for reasonable limitations on late term abortions, but in order for that to work, there must be some room for late term abortions to happen under extraordinary circumstances, as evaluated by qualified medical professionals.

 

[jackstar7]

Look right above your post. You'll note that Cerpin Taxt did respond and that based upon his response, I was able to move forward with a far more reasonable discussion than the one we are having, so it is not I that is putting on airs.

Oh, are you willing to state that you're open to having your mind changed by a convincing argument on this topic?

 

[CitizenKain]

The standard should be that if the man does not want the child, he should not be required to pay child support. She could always abort the baby if he does not want it.

Then maybe he shouldn't get someone pregnant.

 

[Cozarkian]

but it was his decision to have sex without protection that led to the pregnancy.

She wouldn't have had to make the decision if he hadn't made his first.

Correction. It was their decision, and she wouldn't have had to make a second choice if either of them had made a more responsible first choice.

 

[Cozarkian]

Just those of us who care about the truth. It seems that you may not be among us.

I care about the truth, which is why I am more concerned with the facts regarding development of the fetus than the label assigned.

Your discussion regarding the invasiveness of the procedure, viability, and squatter's rights also suggest you are more concerned with the underlying facts, so it is somewhat surprising you are so insistent on selection of the label, which is only useful for a fallacious argument based on appeal to emotion.

If I say unborn child and you say fetus, we are perfectly capable of understanding each others' meaning and discussing the relevant factors for considering the legal and moral appropriateness of abortion.

 

[Cozarkian]

Oh, are you willing to state that you're open to having your mind changed by a convincing argument on this topic?

Always. And in this particular case, I would even say my opinions on abortion are not fully formed.

 

[buckshot24]

Removing an embryo is a far cry from killing a living self aware and feeling child. What a specious and weak argument, often used by the far right to justify control over others.

"Removing embryos"? How about dousing the baby with saline solution.

NSFW: http://clinicquotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/c053sm.jpg

What do you think of this picture? Should this be allowed to occur?

 

[CitizenKain]

"Removing embryos"? How about dousing the baby with saline solution.

NSFW: http://clinicquotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/c053sm.jpg

What do you think of this picture? Should this be allowed to occur?

This just in, medical procedures can be gross.

 

[buckshot24]

This just in, medical procedures can be gross.

You are a sick disgusting human being. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but you're not which makes it all the worse.