is enviornmentalism the new patriotism?

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
This thread is ridiculous. Being anti-environment makes no sense and it seems that a lot of people here have a very loose grasp on reality, maybe because it's not made of polygons and 24 bit pixels. If it weren't for environmentalism, there'd be no emission controls on cars, power plants or anything else, no chemical regulations for effluent into rivers and oceans, or manufacturing standards regarding chemicals.

It's not our fault anti-environment and anti-poor things like biofuel have piggybacked on environmentalism. Blame Al Gore and George Bush and the importance of the Iowa caucus.

I think it's more anti-fake corporate environmentalism used to get publicity and trick people into buying shit.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
It's more like the new communism. Fucking over free industry to make themselves feel good.

 

[ShawnD1]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
MY big problem personally is how little most "enviromentalists" really know about their causes. They act like if you just work hard enough you can change the laws of physics and get energy out of thin air. OR the other thing I hate is all their conspiracy theories like some random guy developed all this technology in his garage 30 years ago and big buisness is just hidding it so they can screw us all.

I always thought this was true, but I never realized how bad it was until that one Penn & Teller episode in the first season. They asked very basic questions, and could not get answers from people who were at environmentalist protests.

Are there any logging methods that do not hurt the environment? No answer.

How do we know X number of species are going extinct every day? No answer (they're making it up)

Why should humans care about species extinction? No answer (there is a real answer, but it shows nobody stopped to ask why this is bad)


Patrick Moore, founder of Greenpeace, said it best when he said that his movement was hijacked by political nutjobs. It's somewhat ironic that Patrick's ideas seem to be in direct opposite to those of environmental activists.

Patrick Moore --> use trees so you don't need plastics as often
Envinromentalists --> use plastic instead of trees, because they hate the earth and refuse to admit it

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
This thread is ridiculous. Being anti-environment makes no sense and it seems that a lot of people here have a very loose grasp on reality, maybe because it's not made of polygons and 24 bit pixels. If it weren't for environmentalism, there'd be no emission controls on cars, power plants or anything else, no chemical regulations for effluent into rivers and oceans, or manufacturing standards regarding chemicals.

It's not our fault anti-environment and anti-poor things like biofuel have piggybacked on environmentalism. Blame Al Gore and George Bush and the importance of the Iowa caucus.

I think it's more anti-fake corporate environmentalism used to get publicity and trick people into buying shit.

yup, chricton is right about the hysterical blindness bit.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
It's more like the new communism. Fucking over free industry to make themselves feel good.

There's no such thing as free industry. Take away subsidies for oil companies and farmers, and the government provided infrastructure, and then you can talk.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
It's more like the new communism. Fucking over free industry to make themselves feel good.

There's no such thing as free industry. Take away subsidies for oil companies and farmers, and the government provided infrastructure, and then you can talk.

Please do.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: Cold Steel
More like a religion.

..eco-theism. the green fog of confusion and propaganda.

 

[HannibalX]

Originally posted by: Cold Steel
More like a religion.

+1

 

[nageov3t]

funny story, both the NYTimes and Vanity Fair's "green issues" were printed on non-recycled paper. :laugh:

 

[Brigandier]

People seem to be so worried about the coming apocalypse, but they do nothing with their dollar-vote. They continue to by the same products from the same companies and cry when nothing happens. If people were really concerned with this world-ending scenario, they'd say so with their dollar vote. Instead they vote for feel good measures like hybrid-Tahoes and ethanol, completely ignoring the issues at hand.

Do I love Mother Earth? For sure, but humans have a relatively tiny impact on the course of geological events.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
This thread is ridiculous. Being anti-environment makes no sense and it seems that a lot of people here have a very loose grasp on reality, maybe because it's not made of polygons and 24 bit pixels. If it weren't for environmentalism, there'd be no emission controls on cars, power plants or anything else, no chemical regulations for effluent into rivers and oceans, or manufacturing standards regarding chemicals.

It's not our fault anti-environment and anti-poor things like biofuel have piggybacked on environmentalism. Blame Al Gore and George Bush and the importance of the Iowa caucus.

I think it's more anti-fake corporate environmentalism used to get publicity and trick people into buying shit.

I agree. In fact, I've been saying this, that consumption isn't environmentalism, for a long time here. That one shouldn't go buy a Prius if you don't need a new car, and don't buy CFL's until your incandescents are used up, etc.

But read again what Throckmorton said. This piggybacked consumerism is not the fault of the environmental movement.
And the simple fact is that conservationism is good for business. Which is only makes sense when you consider that being wasteful is not good for business under any circumstances.

 

[NanoStuff]

Originally posted by: Vic
And the simple fact is that conservationism is good for business. Which is only makes sense when you consider that being wasteful is not good for business under any circumstances.

So you see, it doesn't need to be forced. It will come out of simple corporate interest.

 

[Brigandier]

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

you see, it doesn't need to be forced. It will come out of simple corporate interest.

At the cost of renovating all current business practices? That cost will only be worth it if people actually care enough to not buy products with excess waste materials.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

Originally posted by: Vic
And the simple fact is that conservationism is good for business. Which is only makes sense when you consider that being wasteful is not good for business under any circumstances.

So you see, it doesn't need to be forced. It will come out of simple corporate interest.

I no more suggested forcing it on corporations than I would have it forced on individuals. You and Amused have worked awfully hard in this thread to reveal your hidden collectivist attitudes.
It's in an individual's self-interest not to commit crime, but that doesn't mean we rely solely on self-interest when crime occurs, does it?

 

[Aharami]

funny, i always thought it's the liberals and environmentalists who were portrayed as un-patriotic...at least in this forum

 

[NanoStuff]

Originally posted by: Brigandier

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

you see, it doesn't need to be forced. It will come out of simple corporate interest.

At the cost of renovating all current business practices? That cost will only be worth it if people actually care enough to not buy products with excess waste materials.

I certainly don't care, and I'll continue not to care until I'm given reason to think the benefits of reducing waste material outweigh the benefits of not doing so. What will give me good reason to think this is if companies start changing as a result of cost benefits due to reduced excess, however once this happens, it will require no effort on my part to pick out such products. So as I said before, I'll let the companies decide whether going "green" is a good idea. If it makes sense, it will happen naturally through economics. If it doesn't make sense, I won't make any artificial effort to be "greener".

Substances that are downright dangerous and a substantial health risk have been and will continue to be either banned or highly restricted, but stupidity like CO2 and global warming will not stop me from buying a nice big SUV if I choose to pay for the gas, nor will the government stop me from doing so. They don't tend to make policy through mass hysteria.

 

[NanoStuff]

Originally posted by: Vic
It's in an individual's self-interest not to commit crime

The criminals would disagree.

Originally posted by: Vic
but that doesn't mean we rely solely on self-interest when crime occurs, does it?

Actually, I think it does, yes.

 

[Xavier434]

It is certainly in the spotlight now, but I can think of many worse things that America has chosen as its new fad in the past. Just because something is in the spotlight doesn't make it a bad thing. Getting sick of hearing about it is another issue, but there will rarely be a time that any of us can be free of such things. Marketing is far too dense to avoid so the best we can hope for is some minor relief during fad transitions.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: loki8481
in the line of generally positive things that have been completely co-opted by commercialism?

I'd like to think I live a somewhat environmentally friendly life... I walk or bike to work in the spring/summer/fall, I buy whatever I can local-grown, and I recycle all of my plastic/metal/paper/cardboard, but god damn am I tired of having all this "green" shit shoved down my throat.

I think the green carpet was the last straw for me... I mean, if a company wants to be environmentally friendly, that's great, but stop polluting the air with crappy commercials and mailing me crap that I just throw out.

I think "go green" is the new american flag bumper sticker.

Why don't you go throw a mcdonalds bag on your front lawn in protest...:roll:

 

[NanoStuff]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Getting sick of hearing about it is another issue, but there will rarely be a time that any of us can be free of such things.

I hoped to avoid the stupidity by not watching TV, but it's everywhere, even on sites that you would expect could maintain some level of sensibility.

The more intellectual corners of the intertubes call out the global warming bullshit, but that doesn't really help much, I still have to hear about it all the damn time.

That's the problem with people who can't think for themselves, they like to be a part of something and propagate their sheep mentality. Does any of it make sense? No matter, everyone says it does, that's good enough for me.

 

[FoBoT]

got poll?

yes, or religion, environmentalism is like evangelism to many, some people are saved by Christ, some are saved by recycling soup cans

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

Originally posted by: TehMac

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
It's more like the new communism. Fucking over free industry to make themselves feel good.

Industry is not "free" to pollute the property of others.

Which is why capitalists believe in something called "private property" which means that people who own property do not let it become ruined by the irresponsibility of others.

China, a former communist country, does not hold that attitude, and look how they are.

I think you were trying to make some sort of point, but it seems to have failed miserably considering how well China is doing.

Yeah, China is truly a world leader in pollution and poisoning their people. We should be more like them...

 

[NanoStuff]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Yeah, China is truly a world leader in pollution and poisoning their people. We should be more like them...

In some ways we should be more like them, yes. For example, Americans want to be "greener", yet China is extremely green per capita compared to the US. They are friggin' greenpeace.

Also, they have admirable capitalist policy. Their free market is more free than that of supposedly free countries. I find it very amusing that communists are the benchmark of an open economy.

Chinese are also very intelligent, hard working, and probably the nicest bunch you can run into, which easily explains their excellent growth and extreme modernization which eclipses anything that came out of the industrial revolution.

They will be a world leader in many things. Possibly THE world leader in general, and this will only mean tremendous growth and prosperity for the entire planet.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: NanoStuff

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Yeah, China is truly a world leader in pollution and poisoning their people. We should be more like them...

In some ways we should be more like them, yes. For example, Americans want to be "greener", yet China is extremely green per capita compared to the US. They are friggin' greenpeace.

Also, they have admirable capitalist policy. Their free market is more free than that of supposedly free countries. I find it very amusing that communists are the benchmark of an open economy.

Chinese are also very intelligent, hard working, and probably the nicest bunch you can run into, which easily explains their excellent growth and extreme modernization which eclipses anything that came out of the industrial revolution.

They will be a world leader in many things. Possibly THE world leader in general, and this will only mean tremendous growth and prosperity for the entire planet.

Isn't it also great that China micromanages everyone's freedoms? Hell as just a small example, they limit how many hours you can play WoW. There is nothing about China that I want to bring over here short of their recipes for Lo Mein and Duck.

 

[KentState]

I still laugh everytime I see the house they are giving away on HDTV that's suppose to be green. They always pan to the nice big fire pit on the back porch or then show the Tahoe Hybrid that gets worse gas mileage than a midsize V6 car. I personally see this as the next big money grab and the corporations are soaking it up.