Is eSATA really hot-swapable?

[ruler]

Hi, guys.

I run Windows XP Professional, and recently bought a Thermaltake MAX 4 N0003US Aluminum & Plastic 3.5" USB2.0 & eSATA external case for a 200 gb WD SATA hd of mine. The case works great, but for some reason when I try to use it through eSATA Windows won't recognize the HD unless it's turned on before the booting process.

This is really annoying, since I like to keep this specific HD off most of the time. And having to reboot everytime I turn it on is a major pain in the a**.

Does anybody know what could be causing this, please? I have an Asus A8V deluxe motherboard, and the Thermaltake enclosure is plugged to a eSATA port on small "card" that came with it, which on its term is plugged into the motherboard's onboard RAID controller.

Thanks!

 

[Matthias99]

Depends on what you have it plugged into.

Technically, true "eSATA" controllers are all supposed to support hot-swap and hot-plug. But you're not plugging it into a real "eSATA" controller, you're just using the regular SATA one on your motherboard. It wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't necessarily support hot-plug (even if it does support hot-swap, ie removing and/or replacing the disk after booting.)

Is the device 'removable' within Windows after you boot with it attached?

 

[Zepper]

eSATA is NOT simply a connection. You'll probably have to check in your bios to see if there are any eSATA features that need to be enabled - check Asus' web site to see if eSATA is fully supported by your onboard controller. If neither of those are GO, then you'll need to buy an eSATA card. Vantec makes one for PCI slots (about $25.) and maybe for PCI Express too. I know there are others for PCI-Ex.

You can use the one you have like a normal SATA drive. Just connect it and power the drive up before powering your PC and then disconnect after powering down your PC. In other words, no hot-swapping w/o a true eSATA controller and OS support.

.bh.

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: Zepper
eSATA is NOT simply a connection. You'll probably have to check in your bios to see if there are any eSATA features that need to be enabled - check Asus' web site to see if eSATA is fully supported by your onboard controller. If neither of those are GO, then you'll need to buy an eSATA card. Vantec makes one for PCI slots (about $25.) and maybe for PCI Express too. I know there are others for PCI-Ex.

You can use the one you have like a normal SATA drive. Just connect it and power the drive up before powering your PC and then disconnect after powering down your PC. In other words, no hot-swapping w/o a true eSATA controller and OS support.

.bh.

what is PCI-Ex? i have heard of pci-e and pci-x, but never pci-ex...

 

[Zepper]

I use PCI-Ex as shorthand for PCI Express - not knowing or caring if a convention has been agreed to. But I will start using PCI-Exp as that will differentiate between Express and Extended.

.bh.

 

[corkyg]

As was stated, an eSATA external drive has to be connected to a real eSATA port - not common on mobos or laptops. It requires an an expansion card normally - and I use the Vantec PCMCIA eSATA card with my laptop. It has two real eSATA ports, and hot plugging into them is not a problem.

eSATA

 

[ruler]

Thanks a lot for clarifying things guys.

One last question: does eSATA perform significantly better than USB 2.0? I don't wanna know the nominal speed rates only, but actual user experience.. USB 2.0 seems fast enough for me, considering I will not be using that HD for heavy video editing or anything. I wonder if buying a eSATA card would be justified in my case..

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: ruler
Thanks a lot for clarifying things guys.

One last question: does eSATA perform significantly better than USB 2.0? I don't wanna know the nominal speed rates only, but actual user experience.. USB 2.0 seems fast enough for me, considering I will not be using that HD for heavy video editing or anything. I wonder if buying a eSATA card would be justified in my case..

unless you use the external hdd just like you would a internal one, usb2.0 will be fine. in a benchmark esata will probably be better, but if you are just accessing stuff off of it every now and then or backing up every week or so, i don't think esata would be necessary. usb2.0 is ~480Mb/s or 60MB/s plus whatever overhead usb2.0 has, esata is the same as sata, so at least 150MB/s, but current hdds usually only move data ~40-80MB/s depending on the drive, and as the file size gets smaller the speed goes down the toilet.

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: Zepper
I use PCI-Ex as shorthand for PCI Express - not knowing or caring if a convention has been agreed to. But I will start using PCI-Exp as that will differentiate between Express and Extended.

.bh.

i am sure you know this but why not just use their proper terms?
pci-e = pci express
pci-x = pci extended

 

[vailr]

Try enabling AHCI in bios setup, in order to get advanced capabilities such as hot swap.
However, changing this bios setting after Windows is already installed on the boot drive can create problems.

 

[Zepper]

Reading it won't give you a lot of improvement, writing should give a significant improvement. I generally get 20MB/sec on writing to USB 2.

.bh.

 

[gramboh]

As stated above USB2 writes are generally 25-30mbyte/s max, you will improve this a lot with eSATA/SATA (you are using an SATA setup now, I don't think the A8V has real eSATA on it). If you are using it for backup this may be important.

 

[ruler]

Thank you all so much for all the very valuable information!

 

[TBSN]

Originally posted by: gramboh
As stated above USB2 writes are generally 25-30mbyte/s max, you will improve this a lot with eSATA/SATA (you are using an SATA setup now, I don't think the A8V has real eSATA on it). If you are using it for backup this may be important.

Does anyone know how eSATA would compare to both Firewire 400 (IEEE-1394a) and Firewire 800? Most common PC motherboards (that I know of) do not use firewire 800, but firewire 400 is pretty common. How do the write speeds on firewire compare to eSATA for external, hot-swappable or pluggable drives? Thanks for any info.

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: TBSN

Originally posted by: gramboh
As stated above USB2 writes are generally 25-30mbyte/s max, you will improve this a lot with eSATA/SATA (you are using an SATA setup now, I don't think the A8V has real eSATA on it). If you are using it for backup this may be important.

Does anyone know how eSATA would compare to both Firewire 400 (IEEE-1394a) and Firewire 800? Most common PC motherboards (that I know of) do not use firewire 800, but firewire 400 is pretty common. How do the write speeds on firewire compare to eSATA for external, hot-swappable or pluggable drives? Thanks for any info.

just think of esata as sata as that is what it is external sata. again, if you use the hdd like you would as an internal, esata is the way to go, but if you are like me and use an external hdd to get data from friends every once in a while, usb2/1394a/b is more than adequate

 

[n7]

FWIW, eSATA works just great on my systems.

Shows up correctly when PC is turned on already w/o issues.

 

[TBSN]

Originally posted by: bob4432
just think of esata as sata as that is what it is external sata. again, if you use the hdd like you would as an internal, esata is the way to go, but if you are like me and use an external hdd to get data from friends every once in a while, usb2/1394a/b is more than adequate

USB2.0 may be adequate for getting data from friends, but not necessarily doing back-ups and rendering video to. There is a post above that relates USB write speeds to SATA, but I was just wondering how 1394a compares to SATA in terms of bandwidth, etc...

 

[Paperdoc]

I've seen real-world tests based on copying to and from drives, and using loads of files and data to get average transfer rates. USB2 and Firewire 400 (aka IEEE 1394a) were close to 30 MB/s, with Firewire 400 a bit faster. eSATA was more like 40+ MB/s, but it ranged from 60 on a near-empty drive to a low near 30. Firewire 800 (aka IEEE 1394b) ran close to 60 MB/s or better.

I also understand, like others here, that not all SATA comtrollers support everything that eSATA does, and hot swapping is one of those. In my case I have an eSATA-connected external HDD hooked to a true eSATA controller on my ASUS A8R32-MVP Deluxe mobo, and it does what OP wants. Turn it on and Win XP finds it. Turn it off and it disappears. I don't have to reboot.

 

[TBSN]

Hmmm, I didn't know firewire 800 was so fast. Why hasn't it become common among PCs as it has among the high-end Macs?

 

[V00D00]

It doesn't make sense that firewire 800 would be faster than SATA. SATA is also a storage oriented protocol, which I assume has far less overhead.

I've done tons of benchmarks on USB to IDE enclosures, and I have an eSATA pcmcia card on the way, so I'll be able to compare some raw numbers. I think eSATA is much better than 1394b simply because it's 2/3 more bandwidth. If you're going to say "I've seen real-world tests"... then please provide a link to them so your claims can be backed up. They are meaningless unless EVERYONE can see these numbers.

The industrie's current support of eSATA is a joke. It's hardly implemented properly. Most "eSATA" ports are actually normal sata ports on the outside of your case. Many don't even use the real eSATA connector.

 

[TBSN]

Originally posted by: V00D00
It doesn't make sense that firewire 800 would be faster than SATA. SATA is also a storage oriented protocol, which I assume has far less overhead.

I've done tons of benchmarks on USB to IDE enclosures, and I have an eSATA pcmcia card on the way, so I'll be able to compare some raw numbers. I think eSATA is much better than 1394b simply because it's 2/3 more bandwidth. If you're going to say "I've seen real-world tests"... then please provide a link to them so your claims can be backed up. They are meaningless unless EVERYONE can see these numbers.

The industrie's current support of eSATA is a joke. It's hardly implemented properly. Most "eSATA" ports are actually normal sata ports on the outside of your case. Many don't even use the real eSATA connector.

I agree. I think what we need is for someone to post some links to benchmarks or articles comparing these different 'protocols.' That's basically what I've been asking for the last couple of posts

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: Paperdoc
I've seen real-world tests based on copying to and from drives, and using loads of files and data to get average transfer rates. USB2 and Firewire 400 (aka IEEE 1394a) were close to 30 MB/s, with Firewire 400 a bit faster. eSATA was more like 40+ MB/s, but it ranged from 60 on a near-empty drive to a low near 30. Firewire 800 (aka IEEE 1394b) ran close to 60 MB/s or better.

I also understand, like others here, that not all SATA comtrollers support everything that eSATA does, and hot swapping is one of those. In my case I have an eSATA-connected external HDD hooked to a true eSATA controller on my ASUS A8R32-MVP Deluxe mobo, and it does what OP wants. Turn it on and Win XP finds it. Turn it off and it disappears. I don't have to reboot.

it is very easy to skew results for transfer speeds so yes, please show us results. your claim doesn't make sense because it if did, we would have 1394b connectors inside the machines. please back it up.

 

[Old Hippie]

There's some benchmarks here.

 

[mcurphy]

Originally posted by: Zepper
eSATA is NOT simply a connection. You'll probably have to check in your bios to see if there are any eSATA features that need to be enabled - check Asus' web site to see if eSATA is fully supported by your onboard controller. If neither of those are GO, then you'll need to buy an eSATA card. Vantec makes one for PCI slots (about $25.) and maybe for PCI Express too. I know there are others for PCI-Ex.

You can use the one you have like a normal SATA drive. Just connect it and power the drive up before powering your PC and then disconnect after powering down your PC. In other words, no hot-swapping w/o a true eSATA controller and OS support.

.bh.

Is there any chance you could please provide a link to a Vantec eSATA card? PCI or PCI Express? I've done a few searches but I cannot find one. I am probably not looking in the right sections for the cards, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks (and sorry OP, not trying to hijack your thread! )

 

[Old Hippie]

Is there any chance you could please provide a link to a Vantec eSATA card? PCI or PCI Express?

I'm gonna get one of these also and was researching them yesterday. Here's tests and more tests of the cards and places to buy. It looks like the PCI card, not PCI-E, is a little faster and cheaper. Some cards have more than one internal and external ports.
Mcurphy, I just bought one here. I did find them @ 3.00 cheaper at some unknown places, but this guy has them in stock and the price is about the same as the bigger stores.