Is ghosting in keyboards an actual problem?

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Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
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Guess it's me, but I need some contrast. I don't get the appeal of blank keys.
Like I said, in my subjective opinion blank keys look better than 99% of printed keys out there. Only some custom keysets and perhaps this Topre black-on-black look nicer. The advantage of blanks would be more pronounced on low-quality keyboards where some of the printing eventually wears off and/or looks crap to begin with.

I get that the black-on-black Topre isn't a good fit for you since you hunt and peck, but I fail to understand why you'd complain about that model instead of just looking at any other model which all have high contrast.
 

Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
0
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I use capslock for crouch in FPS games and I've never had a problem with "ghosting".

I don't understand why anyone would... Are you guys using both hands on the keyboard? How do you control the mouse, with your foot?
Something like holding caps for crouch (pinky), C for aim (thumb), W for forward (middle finger) while tapping E for firing mode (index finger) is easily done with one hand. That's four simultaneous inputs. All of the cheap keyboards already fail at least some three-key combos. Some three-key combos I have observed failing in normal work at the office are caps-alt-A, caps-shift-S, caps-shift-D. (My keyboard layout has ctrl in caps' place; those shortcuts are standard Microsoft Outlook, Visual Studio etc. shortcuts.)
 

kamikazekyle

Senior member
Feb 23, 2007
538
0
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Rollover and ghosting are different things. Rollover is when you have three keys pressed like run/forward/strafe and you hit a 4th key like jump during this and it doesn't register. Ghosting is when you have those three keys pressed, and a 4th 'ghost' key is sent by the keyboard (before you hit a 4th key).

I've had problems with rollover in the past on cheap keyboards, but have never run into ghosting. Like another poster said, I had to actually look it up since I've never been affected by it. I can't even remember ever seeing the term while browsing keyboards.

Can I ask why this feature is so important? Did you have issues before? I've never had this issue in 20 years and around 30 keyboards used, the wiki article mentions the use of 'jamming' by keyboard manufacturers to negate ghost keys, and my lack of ever hearing about this makes me think it is a non-issue (unless you are buying super cheap keyboards from China or something maybe).

Huh, wonder WTF I read then? Guess that's what I get for trying to make logical replies when I'm working 140 hours in 15 days. Whoops.

Anywho, my original comment, thankfully, is still valid
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
http://steelseries.com/us/products/keyboards/steelseries-6gv2

That's the cheapest mechanical kb w/ all those ghost etc. features I've seen.

I considered one of those as I've had a few key presses fail to go through while playing MMOs, but that keyboard has one huge issue with it. The enter key is the silly, old-school 'L' shape. The problem is... all throughout my days spent programming, the "pipe key" (\ & |) has always been right above the enter key all the way on the side, but the L-shaped enter key pushes it over. Most people probably don't care about backslash or pipe, but that's the escape character or a bit-wise OR operator to me (respectively).

I don't like that, and it seems all of Steelseries mechanical keyboards use the fat enter.
 
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AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
3
81
While on the subject of keyboards. Does anyone know of an ergonomic (keys angled away from center) that's mechanical + nice features. I have issues with wrist pain and this thread peaked my interest in looking for a nicer keyboard (currently using some microsoft ergonomic keyboard).
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,716
417
126
tbqhwy.com
Probably not. The only time I've ever noticed it was competitive play in an MMO, where you might have 20-30 keybinds (For example, if I tried to run forward, while strafing to the left, while pressing shift, and then pressing a specific key (can't recall which), that key wouldn't register.) I'd say you'll probably never notice it.

Basically this, the ONLY time i ever saw it was in WOW and EQ when you were trying to do 100 things at once
 

Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
0
0
While on the subject of keyboards. Does anyone know of an ergonomic (keys angled away from center) that's mechanical + nice features. I have issues with wrist pain and this thread peaked my interest in looking for a nicer keyboard (currently using some microsoft ergonomic keyboard).
Kinesis Advantage.
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
15,682
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www.markbetz.net
Like I said, in my subjective opinion blank keys look better than 99% of printed keys out there. Only some custom keysets and perhaps this Topre black-on-black look nicer. The advantage of blanks would be more pronounced on low-quality keyboards where some of the printing eventually wears off and/or looks crap to begin with.

I get that the black-on-black Topre isn't a good fit for you since you hunt and peck, but I fail to understand why you'd complain about that model instead of just looking at any other model which all have high contrast.

Because the website I looked at sported a specific disclaimer that the black keyboards were not available with high contrast key labels, and that users who wanted higher contrast labels should buy the white keyboard.
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
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If anyone is having issues with Key Rollover and/or Ghosting

.. the answer is simple

Use a PS2 adapter - USB only has these issues
:whiste:


Kinda sorta.

Ghosting is a problem with a keyboard registering more than certain number of keys at once. Usually it's around 3 or 4.. So you're pressing W, strafing with D, holding down shift, and then when you press spacebar the keyboard wigs out and registers some other random keys messing everything up (IF it's plugged into the PS2 port)

If you're in the same situation but plugged into USB it will either not register anything extra or act like nothing is pressed.


IMO it's a non-issue except for old or crappy mechanical keyboards. If you have a rubber dome (logitech, microsoft, etc etc) this isn't a problem.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
Ghosting I've never experienced, my laptop's keyboard has issues with key rollover however, so I can at least attest to that much.
 

modestninja

Senior member
Jul 17, 2003
753
0
76
Kinesis Advantage.

Anyone know of a B&M store that carries this? It looks crazy enough that I'd want to try it out before dropping $250+ on it.

That being said, I've used different microsoft ergonomic keyboards for 10 years while playing FPSs (sometimes competitively) and have yet to experience any of these issues.
 

Ross Ridge

Senior member
Dec 21, 2009
830
0
0
Use a PS2 adapter - USB only has these issues

No, it's not caused by the protocol used. Its caused by how the keyboards themselves are wired. Instead of having each key wired as an on/off switch that's directly and individually connected to the the the keyboard's microcontroller, the keys wired in a grid. This requires much fewer conections to the microcontroller.

The problem with using a grid is that it leads to problems that have been described in this thread. Depending on the combination of keys pressed down at the same time the keyboard controller might either be misled into thinking the wrong key was pressed or be simply unable to detect that one or more of the keys were pressed.

USB does have one related issue, but in practice is not likely to be a problem. The USB keyboard protocol sends reports to the PC that describes the current state of the keyboard, giving a list of all the keys that are currently pressed everytime a key is pushed or released. The PS/2 keyboard protocol just sends reports that describe what's changed, sending a message only that a key has been pressed or released. The USB keyboard "boot" report format only allows the keyboard to report that up to 6 different keys being pressed at the same time. (Basic modifier keys like shift, ctrl, and alt don't count towards this limit by the way.)

However, the USB keyboard "boot" format is only designed to be used with the BIOS to simplify its implementation. Once an operating system that fully supports USB is started, it's possible for the keyboard to use an arbitrary report format that would allow it report as many keys being pressed down at once as the keyboard has. In practice most keyboards only support the boot format, but most keyboards can't come even close to reliably detecting whether 6 different keys have been pressed at the same time anyways.

A USB to PS/2 adapter won't make any difference, since the USB protocol is still being used part of the way and so is still a limitating factor.
 

tweakboy

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2010
9,517
2
81
www.hammiestudios.com
I have anti-ghosting feature on my Razer Tarantula keyboard ... thx gl,

just avoid cheapo keyboards,, if your keyboard is 50 dollars or more it shouldnt ghost ,,unless your some crazy quake 3 player or something...




I can find barely any keyboards that are anti-ghosting and actually decent (I hate macro keys since I don't use them and almost all gaming keyboards have macro keys along with anti-ghosting so those are out). Is it really important to get an anti-ghosting keyboard? Will my casual game playing suffer greatly if I don't? I don't want a mechanical keyboard either.

I never remember these keyboards when I built my first computer 8-10 years ago and game play seemed fine. Are keyboards getting shittier and shittier or something? Man, nothing in my build has taken as long to choose besides a fucking keyboard and it's driving me nuts lol. The only decent looking, non-macro anti-ghosting keyboard I've found is this...and this doesn't even seem great.

Thanks.
 
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Sep 7, 2009
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destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
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Kinda sorta.

Ghosting is a problem with a keyboard registering more than certain number of keys at once. Usually it's around 3 or 4.. So you're pressing W, strafing with D, holding down shift, and then when you press spacebar the keyboard wigs out and registers some other random keys messing everything up (IF it's plugged into the PS2 port)

If you're in the same situation but plugged into USB it will either not register anything extra or act like nothing is pressed.


IMO it's a non-issue except for old or crappy mechanical keyboards. If you have a rubber dome (logitech, microsoft, etc etc) this isn't a problem.

A lot of rubber domes don't even properly support 6KRO over USB across the entire keyboard.
It certainly is a problem... if it's a problem for the individual making the purchase.

Even a lot of "gaming-optimized matrix" boards, like some mechanical and some dome(including scissor switches), only technically can be called 2KRO.

If a board cannot even truly do 6KRO across all keys (and that is not including modifier keys), I'm pretty sure it cannot magically reach NKRO over PS2.

If it's a true NKRO board over PS2, it will have no problem maxing out USB (and some boards even have special USB signaling methods that support 10+KRO).

As to it being a problem, well... it's an individual thing. You'll know if it's an issue or not, it's not something where you don't really notice it yet it causes problems. If you press a key, unless you are mashing and aren't paying attention... you likely know what you want to happen following that key press; if it doesn't happen and you've been hitting a lot of other keys, then quite likely "ghosting" is holding you back (how much, if at all, is another argument... and once again should be something you can feel out for yourself).
However, it's not relegated only to MMOs.
Well technically, NKRO might as well basically only be advertised for an MMO and/or complex RPG/RTS player... but the difference between true 6KRO (across all keys, not just the WASD cluster) and limited 6KRO/2KRO (or to be accurate: 2KRO with select key combinations allowing up to 6KRO), can definitely impact performance in many multiplayer games.

To be fair, it's not an average occurrence in FPS games to utilize more than 4 or 5 keys at once, and likely one or two of those is a "modifier" key (like CTRL, ALT, Shift, Tab, etc)... and other keys will be one-time on top of the continually-depressed keys at that moment.

It probably happens rarely enough (unless your are a truly pro or pro-level gamer) for 99% of the general gaming community that one shouldn't make an effort to get such a keyboard (or pay much more), unless of course you notice something is seriously wrong between key presses and what is displayed.
If that's not you, purchase a board based on preferences.


For reference: I've recently gone through a few keyboards (and one arrives tomorrow), attempting to find just what I'd actually prefer most.
I had a Logitech G110 for the longest while, felt like I should try different switch types.
First I tried the Razer Lycosa, just to see how I'd react to scissor-switches on my desktop, with a full-size keyboard to boot. (yes, it's technically a dome/membrane-style key type).
Then, with enough research, I felt prepared to try a mechanical board. Because I was utilizing Best Buy so returns are super easy, I picked up the Razer BlackWidow Ultimate (I want/need backlighting!). I can get along well enough with the Cherry MX Blue switches used in this board, but prefer no click.
I then was notified by Razer that the Black Widow Ultimate Stealth Edition (Cherry MX Brown switches, matte finish as opposed to the mirror-like shine of the original BlackWidow line) was in stock on their website, as I had signed up to be notified.
It also appears a nice benefit to this upgrade is the fact that the Stealth line also features true 6KRO across the whole board. The original BW line only supports 2KRO with limited "6KRO" around the WASD cluster. I already noticed... I think... that a key press wasn't registered when I was trying to do a lot of things while running around in BF3. I can't be sure... and I cannot imagine I'll have myself in a situation where I find that to even be an issue all that often. The fact that the keyboard arriving tomorrow improves the KRO figure is a nice bonus but I seriously doubt it'll hamper my abilities all that often.
Granted, I'm no all-star, so some of the top-ranking BF3 players may have other things to say. I cannot imagine it's anything other than rare even for the top BF3 players...
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
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For what it's worth, I tried black, blue, brown, and red cherries... And red is by far the best. They're lighter than browns, easier to type on, and just perfect. IIRC red switches are ~20% more expensive which is why razor and other companies don't use them very often.
 

Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
0
0
A lot of rubber domes don't even properly support 6KRO over USB across the entire keyboard.
That implies some rubber dome boards are 6KRO, but as far as I know, every rubber dome board is 2KRO, and every scissor key board except Sidewinder X4 is also 2KRO.
limited 6KRO/2KRO (or to be accurate: 2KRO with select key combinations allowing up to 6KRO)
I think "up to 6KRO" is in the same class of things as "slightly pregnant". Rollover numbers are absolute. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure any keyboard will register some combination of 6 keys so specifying that isn't really conveying information either.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
To the best of my knowledge Key Rollover has nothing to do with the physical keyboard implementation. You can have a mechanical with 2KRO or a dome/switch keyboard with 10KRO; mechanicals just tend to have more robust rollover to appeal to the type of user who cares what's in their keyboard.

My own keyboard at home is a rubber dome as I recall, but I haven't actually had any rollover issues, whereas I have on my laptop in many of the same games.
 

Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
0
0
To the best of my knowledge Key Rollover has nothing to do with the physical keyboard implementation. You can have a mechanical with 2KRO or a dome/switch keyboard with 10KRO; mechanicals just tend to have more robust rollover to appeal to the type of user who cares what's in their keyboard.

My own keyboard at home is a rubber dome as I recall, but I haven't actually had any rollover issues, whereas I have on my laptop in many of the same games.
Might the construction of rubber dome boards make it harder to do NKRO? Just guessing, I'd think *someone* would make a rubber dome board with NKRO as a selling point if it was not prohibitively expensive. On mechanicals it's simple, the board just needs an extra diode at every key to go NKRO. Microsoft, OTOH, uses their proprietary "resistive multitouch" tech to do NKRO on the Sidewinder.
 
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