Is god pissed?

[Pohemi]

He's posted nothing but cyclical reasoning for 13 pages - scripture quotes as if "god" told it directly to him. Maybe he believes exactly that. How long will you keep trying to reason with someone such as this? You are talking to a wall. "What I read must be true because what I read says so! I believe it so it must be correct! And I will now base all responses for discussion on these supposed factual notions."

People can have strong faith without being idiotic tools. Apparently, not arredondo.

 

[MtnMan]

Please don't tell me I have a narrow, rigid interpretation of how Christianity works when I'm merely quoting and discussing what God is expressing Himself as being true in His bible.
<wall of bullshit deleted>

We don't need to tell you, you just proved your narrow, rigid interoperation with this post.

 

[sdifox]

Aqua strikes again

Konosuba!

 

[Commodus]

Please don't tell me I have a narrow, rigid interpretation of how Christianity works when I'm merely quoting and discussing what God is expressing Himself as being true in His bible.

Again, your claim of having been a Christian is something you invented. That's a personal religion of yours (and others, sadly) that has nothing to do with what God explains in His word. If the bible is the primary and original source for our understanding of Jesus Christ, how can you blatantly conflict with it (as I showed in part in my last post among others in this thread) and then claim that your perspective is the correct one? If what you say is indeed true, that can only mean that the scriptures are false, which would also mean (ironically enough) that you were still never a Christian because what's in the bible would then not be real. I mean, you literally posted this in the quoted text above:

>>> "I don't believe I ever had a relationship with Jesus"

OK. I agree with you. The scriptures from the post I wrote in the link agree with your admission too. Since Christianity is solely about a relationship instead of a religion, then you were never a Christian according to the bible.

My once being a Christian means "I once ascribed to the Christian belief system." That's true whether or not you think I was ever a real Christian in the first place. Can you please accept this fact and move on? Now, to address the points you claim I didn't address:

I've looked through all types of theories because, as I said, it is an extremely interesting subject to me. Whether it's chaotic inflation, a mirror universe, or a cyclic universe, etc. With each one I try to drill down to see what is being said to address how anything (let alone everything) can come from nothing. No one I've seen has tried to answer it directly. In fact, I think I remember Hawkings once griped that question shouldn't be asked a long time ago before he switched his theory of the universe's origins. If you have an answer to share about this, thanks in advance for the info.

In science, you don't try to answer a question when you don't have the data to produce an answer. The very nature of the universe makes it difficult or impossible to collect that data. Our existing knowledge of quantum mechanics only lets us study so far into the Big Bang (the temperatures and density were too extreme), and we can't see past the "dark ages" when there was no light in the universe. I highly suggest you read the Big Bang chronology.

Some have speculated that the nature of quantum mechanics would allow for whole universes to form, and that there may well be a vast array of other universes. But they're careful to stress that it's just that: speculation. And scientists don't automatically rule out the possibility that a god created the universe, but as there is no real evidence pointing to divine origin, they can't use that to explain anything.

In the end, aren't there only two possibilities to how all of the various complex systems in the universe came to be?

~ Option 1: Pure randomness of events over a period of time to eventually produced all of the results of life, the universe and everything that we can readily observe today.

~ Option 2: Non-random influences played a role in how everything became what it is today.

God represents Option 2 (objectively speaking, so do computers, aliens, deities, magic, etc.). But looking at an example like my falling tile question above, isn't Option 1 impossible? I mean, you point to a theory that life came about over a 4 billion year period, but even in all that time it is not close to being possible to drop tiles to the ground in a way that all the works of Shakespeare would appear in perfect order, right? Let's make it even simpler: not even one complete page of a play or poem of his would randomly appear... and that is only about organizing and formatting text into a logical flow! You can't achieve complex order from chaotic randomness.

Up above you mentioned something about the laws of physics (which are far more complex than the text of Shakespeare randomly coming into existence). First we have to go back first to the idea that physics itself came from nothing, and then you have to believe that once it became a thing, the laws developed into what they are to make sense because of what? Pure randomness like the tile drop analogy? That the laws became what they are because enough time allows for everything we have to eventually come into existence?

Seriously, how do complex realities like physics, gravity, light, darkness, sound, energy, matter, space, etc. develop into what they logically are out of pure randomness and time, especially when there is absolutely nothing to develop from to begin with?

That's before you go into other complex realities like the eye, the heart, the water cycle, the miracle of reproduction, and a gajillion other examples. All are more complex than letter tiles forming text, so how can they come about from random chaos no matter how much time is allowed?

Or do you instead think that something in some way, shape or form always existed?

Option 1 is absolutely possible, but calling it "random" is also arbitrary and even spiteful; it implies that existence is down to rolls of the dice rather than the predictable mechanisms we know are present. Stars, planets, life and human beings like you were dictated by physics, evolution and other throughly verified natural behaviors. We can't definitively explain how basic behaviors like physics or even space itself came to be, but again: scientists are allowed to say "we don't know" even as they pursue answers.

If I recall correctly, I've already shot down your "how could something this complex possibly come to be?" claim — that is, the irreducible complexity myth. Take the eye, for example. We have ample evidence of the evolution of the eye, ranging from species that were simply receptive to light using "eyespots" through to the advanced mechanisms you see today. The whole principle of evolution is that the genetic traits that offer the best chance of survival are the ones that pass down from generation to generation; it's a succession of mostly very gradual changes.

Part of why it seems unbelievable to you, and indeed many people, is that humans have a difficulty grasping the time scales and how much can change from era to era. Humans in their basic present form have only been around for about 300,000 years, and our entire recorded history is several thousand years old. We're a tiny blip on Earth's timescale, let alone the larger universe. We've seen evolution on short scales, such as people getting taller over the past few hundred years; why is it so difficult to accept that more substantial changes happened over thousands, millions and billions of years?

I honestly don't know whether or not something has always existed, but I also don't presume to know; I just know that the Big Bang model of the universe has so far held up very well, and act accordingly. I'm not going to leap to claim "God did it" simply because I crave an explanation I don't immediately have.

 

[arredondo]

arredondo,

I am a rare poster but have been an avid reader of this forum for many years. However, I felt the need to reply to you in particular.

You follow your path with strength and fortitude. Many wonder what your motivations are, they fear because that is their nature. However, many are open to your message.

Someone else here suggested that the way you deliver your message may make it difficult to digest. I know you found the truth of “Christ” through Christianity. But realize the verses that you quote are meaningful to you in a way that the English language cannot properly represent. The others that you are trying to help seem deaf to your words because the quotes you display are too quickly glossed over without diving into their deeper meaning. Unfortunately, when you attempt to present a deeper meaning you are again regurgitating your own comprehension, which can be meaningless to others. Although I do appreciate your dark interpretation. Understand also, that even if you delve into the deeper meaning the symbiology may not be universally represented.

You have come to a technical forum, so I will try to speak to you in a technical way. If you want your message to be better understood you will first need to convey the symbols you wish to discuss through our shared reality. We must grok them in the same way you do. Then from these symbols we can begin to converse. From our conversation we can then begin to understand. However, I am unsure if you wish your message to be better understood or if the act of presenting your epiphany is the entire point of your posts.

Please know there are no real battles between us. What you see and what Moonbeam see’s are the same. All adversaries are simply an illusion, all beliefs are only beliefs in an illusion.

I wish you well on your path.

Thank you for the thoughtful and respectful response. There's no need for anyone to be disagreeable when all we're doing is discussing various topics, even when we aren't agreeing on this point or that one.

As to the heart of your post, it misunderstands in a way that I've addressed may times about what's been going on with what I've been writing here. It doesn't surprise me though because God said this will often be the case, and here we have another example of where He is right when it comes to the head scratching expressed by unbelievers (which you reveal yourself to be later in your post).

If you truly want a specific explanation as to why you and everyone else who continues to make this discussion about me vs. the world is incorrect, please read this (relatively short) post written up way-back-when in this thread. One of the verses from a full bible quote featured in that link says this:

~~~~~
1 Corinthians 2:14
"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
~~~~~

As I pointed out in the post, your attempt to understand what God is telling you cannot be comprehended solely through either an analytical approach or by generating an emotional response alone. At best, our hearts and minds are secondary, supportive "tools" for us to be able to process what the Lord expresses to each of us in the bible.

Supportive of what? Supportive of the primary way God's word will make any legitimate and effectual sense, which is when the Holy Spirit communicates directly to the spirit which is the real you. All other attempts to figure out the scriptures is "foolishness" to you, as stated in the bible, because they are instead "spiritually" appraised (or discerned). Take a close look at this prayer from Jesus on how this works:

~~~~~
Luke 10:21
"In that same hour He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was Your gracious will.'"
~~~~~

Do you see what He is saying? The point being made is that the grace and truth of the God's word are "hidden" from the wise and understanding (people who rely primarily on intelligence and their emotions to to discern what the scriptures are expressing), but is "revealed" to the spirit of a person by the Holy Spirit of those who approach the Lord with a child-like faith (which Jesus described in several passages like this one):

~~~~~
Mark 10:15
"Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”
~~~~~

A child-like faith is no different than when a three-year old simply and confidently trusts that his loving daddy will guide, protect and correct him as he goes through life.

So all of that was typed up is to say something I've declared a bunch of times along the way: it is not me you are contesting but God Himself when you debate if the foundation of what I point out in the bible is real. You mean well, but your helpful tips and strats for what and how I post has no purpose at all if I am truly doing what I'm actually trying to do.

Trying to do what... convince any of you Godless sinners to get saved? No, because (as I've said), that's impossible. Only the Lord can save. Then what is my role in any of this? To willingly allow the Him to use me for His purpose when it comes to God reaching out to knock on the door of your heart.

Again, I didn't write the scriptures. I'm not responsible for the grace and truth found within them. All of that is from your Creator who the words directly come from. I merely repeat what He has said and expand on some of the concepts He has expressed.

Here's when you know it is "me" behind my typed up responses and not God... when I am clearly saying something that is in conflict with His word. That's when any of you reading this is free to blame me all you want.

On the contrary, for everyone who eventually believes, the bible explains why it was the Lord (and not some mere individual's convincing debate of words) that saved their soul so they can go to heaven:

~~~~~
1 Thessalonians 2:13
"And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers."
~~~~~

I mean, it doesn't get any clearer than that. If God is real and the bible is true, then I get no credit whatsoever if anyone reads a few posts I write here and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. None! It is God who speaks through me that would get 100% of the praise and glory for keeping you from eternal damnation when He agreed to be punished for all your wrongdoings in your place. You are only asked to accept the free pardon of grace that He offers since He will never force you to take it.

So now that I am relieved of the great responsibility of trying and get you to believe in God, it makes it infinitely easier for me to write these posts. That's why I don't do hours of research before I respond; in fact, I don't even read ahead to anybody's post before I start writing.

As long as I am aligned with God's will and not my own in a way that is apart from Him, and as long as I continue to diligently read His word in general while staying in prayer and going to church, the Lord directs me to show people scriptures from the bible for anyone to read/hear what He has to say for themselves:

~~~~~
Matthew 10:19-20
"...do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you."
~~~~~

I am not strategizing any of this on my own (which is why I must respectfully dismiss your well intentioned advice), which is why I am free to simply trust that whatever it is God led me to respond with in these posts, it will accomplish His goals in your lives:

~~~~~
Isaiah 55:11
"So shall My word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
~~~~~

That means I get the easy part by willingly letting Him use me in how His word that goes out (spiritually) from His mouth to your spirit. God's word then accomplishes its purpose, which is an effort towards mainly one of two things per individual, depending on if a particular reader is saved or not:

~~~~~
1 Thessalonians 3:2
"...and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith."
~~~~~

If you are not a believer, the Lord's main purpose by sending out His word is to communicate the need for you to "establish" your faith (get saved) through simple belief in Jesus and what He did for you on the cross. Out of love, compassion, and mercy, He will continue to do that for every unsaved person until the day they die.

For those who are already saved and read the scriptures, the Lord sets out to "encourage" their faith until the day they go to be with their Father in heaven for eternity.

God's word is is successfully doing these two things in general (and so much more) for each of you, and will continue to do so while you still walk the earth whether you asked Him to do it or not. It serves His purpose either way; between the two of you God does His part. The only open question is how you will react to what He has to say to you.

This is not my path, as you put it at the end of your response. This is the Lord's path. Whether I ever existed or not it still is what it is. You will either choose to follow it or you won't, and it has absolutely nothing to do with me. Ultimately, you will stand before God alone to receive the eternal reward or never-ending consequence of your decision.

 

[Captante]

ONE thing I can say I DO believe with absolute certainty.

Nobody here actually KNOWS if God is real or not.


<-----<<<<< breaks for the exit

 

[ch33zw1z]

ONE thing I can say I DO believe with absolute certainty.

Nobody here actually KNOWS if God is real or not.


<-----<<<<< breaks for the exit

Gottem'

Oh, and @sdifox pads his chest

 

[arredondo]

This is... not really why we're not taking in the message. And I haven't really seen anyone open to that message besides you.

Arredondo isn't regurgitating comprehension so much as he (I'm guessing it's a he) is assuming everyone accepts his worldview as inherently true. To him, all atheists quietly know God exists — they just pretend otherwise.

If Arredondo wants to have a real discussion, he has to accept that non-religious people operate completely outside of his worldview. You won't persuade us by warning us of judgment or insisting that you can never let go of a "relationship" with Jesus. How can we be afraid of something that we've said doesn't exist? It's like telling a middle-aged person to behave if they want presents from Santa Claus... the threat is toothless.

The tricky part, of course, is that he's unlikely to convert anyone (and despite his claims, he's trying to convert people) when stepping outside of that bubble. How do you persuade someone to become Christian knowing they will only accept tangible, verifiable evidence? Well, you don't.

My response to the point you're raising would be similar to what I just recently wrote up above on this page to vjeltz. In no way am I posting because I am "assuming everyone accepts my worldview". That's never even crossed my mind, let alone a concept that I actually believe.

In fact, my guess is hardly any of you agree with me at all. It doesn't phase me because what I personally think isn't even important. The only thing that's important from my POV is what the Lord wants of me at any given time. For the unsaved out there, what should concern you is what God's response is to what you say, do and think - don't worry about what I want at all.

Commodus, it sounds like you want to explore this idea further. So I will offer the best analogy I can produce.

Let’s say you’re a programmer, you love to program, in fact you have been programming computers since you were a small child. You realize that nothing happens on a computer without programming and it’s really the key to getting the most out of your computer. Soon you want to tell everyone how much they have been missing using off the shelf software and how much more they could get from their computer if they also knew how to program. But they seem disinterested, they truly feel that the software that came with their machine is perfectly fine and they really don’t care how it works or to make it better.

So you go off to find other programmers and start writing code together. However, when you reach out to different groups you realize that each group writes code with a different combination of languages and tools. Some of these other programmers are adamant that their language and dev tools are the best and the others are all junk. There are even claims that some languages aren’t even real programming and are just scripting.

Now Commodus, you have no interest in programming. But to a young programmer who wants to write code, where do they begin? What programming language do they learn? Do they even know English yet? So much programming is based in English. What a mess and we are only talking about computers.

And again, this is a technical forum. So what is happening here is akin to trying to find programmers on a home and gardening forum. The only reason I originally posted was to provide my message to Arredondo who might be a little confused.

The analogy falls apart if God is real and the bible is indeed filled with what He has to say to all of us. The reason why is because He tells us inside of it that there is no other "programming language" in reality for people to choose from... only that which He has offered to us according to His word.

~~~~~
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Acts 4:12
"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

1 Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..."
~~~~~

Sure, it's true that plenty of people feel differently, but if it is also true that He is the Creator of us all, then what others feel to the contrary to what He has expressed is 100% insignificant and wrong. It's actually worse than that since the consequence of being wrong on the most important issue of one's existence (the choice to believe in the God of the bible) is more terrifying than mere words can describe.

This particular point is so vitally important, that the Lord directly addresses it in the very first of the ten commandments:

~~~~~
Exodus 20:3
“You shall have no other gods before Me."
~~~~~

What is the name of the sin for those who do choose to follow false gods? Idolatry:

~~~~~
1 Chronicles 16:26
"For all the gods of the peoples are idols, but the Lord made the heavens."
~~~~~

The single most basic reason why idolatry in all of its forms is wrong is because it diverts a person's heart away from the one true God towards something that literally does not exist. The bible calls out all false gods for what they truly are: "nothing".

~~~~~
1 Samuel 12:21
"And do not turn aside; for then you would go after empty things which cannot profit or deliver, for they are nothing."

Jeremiah 51:17-18
"...Every metalsmith is put to shame by the carved image; for his molded image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. They are worthless, a work of mockery;"

1 Corinthians 8:4
"Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one."
~~~~~

So what's so wrong about false gods and idolatry anyway? As long as it makes a person feel good and doesn't bother anybody else there's no harm, right?

Wrong. Any time someone ignores a sincere relationship with the only real God and pursues in their hearts anything else above Him instead, it robs the Lord of the praise and glory He deserves, and it separates that person from the only chance of being saved from damnation.

The further one drifts away from God, the more their idolatrous, sinful pursuits of all types that the person embraces infects every aspect of their lives instead:

~~~~~
Isaiah 42:8
"I am the Lord; that is My name; My glory I give to no other, nor My praise to carved idols."

Ephesians 5:5
"For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God."

Revelation 9:20-21
"The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts."

Galatians 5:19-21
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
~~~~~

As I mentioned before, "sorceries" in scripture is usually a reference to illicit drug use.

After the rapture (which I discussed in this post), the world will be filled with those who are 100% intent on pursing all of their idolatrous desires to the fullest extent possible. What's described in the bible tells us that there has been no time in history that was filled with as much evil and wickedness as it will be during what is referred to as the tribulation period.

Idolatry is real, and all false gods are wrong.

 

[Captante]

My response to the point you're raising would be similar to what I just recently wrote up above on this page to vjeltz. In no way am I posting because I am "assuming everyone accepts my worldview". That's never even crossed my mind, let alone a concept that I actually believe.

In fact, my guess is hardly any of you agree with me at all. It doesn't phase me because what I personally think isn't even important. The only thing that's important from my POV is what the Lord wants of me at any given time. For the unsaved out there, what should concern you is what God's response is to what you say, do and think - don't worry about what I want at all.


The analogy falls apart if God is real and the bible is indeed filled with what He has to say to all of us. The reason why is because He tells us inside of it that there is no other "programming language" in reality for people to choose from... only that which He has offered to us according to His word.

~~~~~
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Acts 4:12
"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

1 Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..."
~~~~~

Sure, it's true that plenty of people feel differently, but if it is also true that He is the Creator of us all, then what others feel to the contrary to what He has expressed is 100% insignificant and wrong. It's actually worse than that since the consequence of being wrong on the most important issue of one's existence (the choice to believe in the God of the bible) is more terrifying than mere words can describe.

This particular point is so vitally important, that the Lord directly addresses it in the very first of the ten commandments:

~~~~~
Exodus 20:3
“You shall have no other gods before Me."
~~~~~

What is the name of the sin for those who do choose to follow false gods? Idolatry:

~~~~~
1 Chronicles 16:26
"For all the gods of the peoples are idols, but the Lord made the heavens."
~~~~~

The single most basic reason why idolatry in all of its forms is wrong is because it diverts a person's heart away from the one true God towards something that literally does not exist. The bible calls out all false gods for what they truly are: "nothing".

~~~~~
1 Samuel 12:21
"And do not turn aside; for then you would go after empty things which cannot profit or deliver, for they are nothing."

Jeremiah 51:17-18
"...Every metalsmith is put to shame by the carved image; for his molded image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. They are worthless, a work of mockery;"

1 Corinthians 8:4
"Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one."
~~~~~

So what's so wrong about false gods and idolatry anyway? As long as it makes a person feel good and doesn't bother anybody else there's no harm, right?

Wrong. Any time someone ignores a sincere relationship with the only real God and pursues in their hearts anything else above Him instead, it robs the Lord of the praise and glory He deserves, and it separates that person from the only chance of being saved from damnation.

The further one drifts away from God, the more their idolatrous, sinful pursuits of all types that the person embraces infects every aspect of their lives instead:

~~~~~
Isaiah 42:8
"I am the Lord; that is My name; My glory I give to no other, nor My praise to carved idols."

Ephesians 5:5
"For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God."

Revelation 9:20-21
"The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts."

Galatians 5:19-21
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
~~~~~

As I mentioned before, "sorceries" in scripture is usually a reference to illicit drug use.

After the rapture (which I discussed in this post), the world will be filled with those who are 100% intent on pursing all of their idolatrous desires to the fullest extent possible. What's described in the bible tells us that there has been no time in history that was filled with as much evil and wickedness as it will be during what is referred to as the tribulation period.

Idolatry is real, and all false gods are wrong.

You may be completely right.

On the other hand you may have based your entire belief system on a made up story written by people to whom a lightbulb would have been perceived as "sorcery" and who firmly believed the earth was flat.

I'm leaning towards the latter.

I have no way to be certain ultimately though and more importantly neither do you. The difference is that I can admit it.

 

[MtnMan]

Thank you for the thoughtful and respectful response. There's no need for anyone to be disagreeable when all we're doing is discussing various topics, even when we aren't agreeing on this point or that one.
<snip for brevity>

You are not discussing, you are just preaching babble from your bible, and at great length. You seem incapable of expressing thoughts in your own words.

 

[sdifox]

Bible quotes Vs. this.

I'll stick to anime.


Here is a paraphrased quote from Karl Marx : Religion is the opium of the people.

 

[Pohemi]

You are not discussing, you are just preaching babble from your bible, and at great length. You seem incapable of expressing thoughts in your own words.

He's expressed to some extent what some of the scriptures mean to him. For how many scriptures he's quoted now across the 14 pages of the thread though, that's pretty much all he's done with the quoting, and not actually explained anything outside himself (and his bible-claimed issues with non-believers, that he states as truth for everyone).

You are still not having discussions with a rational person.

 

[MtnMan]

He's expressed to some extent what some of the scriptures mean to him. For how many scriptures he's quoted now across the 14 pages of the thread though, that's pretty much all he's done with the quoting, and not actually explained anything outside himself (and his bible-claimed issues with non-believers, that he states as truth for everyone).

You are still not having discussions with a rational person.

View attachment 59252

I really suspect that isn't true, but what he was instructed by preachers or someone with influence in his life as to what they mean.

Religion and rational thought are like matter and anti-matter. They cannot exist in the same mind.

 

[Captante]

I really suspect that isn't true, but what he was instructed by preachers or someone with influence in his life as to what they mean.

Religion and rational thought are like matter and anti-matter. They cannot exist in the same mind.

It all depends on a persons approach.... the problem is many folks take the bible literally rather then really trying to understand its message.

Interpreting the bible (and most religious tomes) as philosophy rather then some kind of twisted "rule-book" can really change ones perspective.

The conflict is between religious fundamentalists and reason not the concept of God itself far as I can tell.

 

[MtnMan]

It all depends on a persons approach.... the problem is many folks take the bible literally rather then really trying to understand its message.

Interpreting the bible (and most religious tomes) as philosophy rather then some kind of twisted "rule-book" can really change ones perspective.

The conflict is between religious fundamentalists and reason not the concept of God itself far as I can tell.

Even interpreting it as a philosophy is irrational. The stories are deeply steeped in the lack of knowledge of the times. Not basing anything in my life based on the musings and fears of a man that didn't know where the sun went at night.

Thus, the term "god of the gaps" and the willfully ignorant are fighting desperately to maintain the gaps in knowledge, so there will be a place for their god.

 

[Captante]

Even interpreting it as a philosophy is irrational. The stories are deeply steeped in the lack of knowledge of the times. Not basing anything in my life based on the musings and fears of a man that didn't know where the sun went at night.

Thus, the term "god of the gaps" and the willfully ignorant are fighting desperately to maintain the gaps in knowledge, so there will be a place for their god.

I suppose the above depends on who is doing the interpreting.

I've read the bible almost in its entirety and dismissing the lessons it contains because dumb/ignorant people are incapable of really understanding it or because the people who wrote it were primitive doesn't sound like a very enlightened approach to me.

Of course IMO the more one learns about what motivates others the better off they are and for better or worse the Bible motivates a lot of people.

I understand not everyone shares this viewpoint.



I'm struggling to find the "negative" here....

Definition of philosophy:


philosophy
noun

phi·los·o·phy | \ fə-ˈlä-s(ə-)fē \
plural philosophies


1a(1): all learning exclusive of technical precepts and practical arts

(2): the sciences and liberal arts exclusive of: medicine, law

(3): the 4-year college course of a major seminary
b(1)archaic : physical science

(2): Ethics
c: a discipline comprising as its core logic, aesthetics, ethics, metaphysics, and epistemology

*2a: pursuit of wisdom
b: a search for a general understanding of values and reality by chiefly speculative rather than observational means
c: an analysis of the grounds of and concepts expressing fundamental beliefs

3a: a system of philosophical concepts
b: a theory underlying or regarding a sphere of activity or thoughtthe philosophy of war

4a: the most basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group
b: calmness of temper and judgment befitting a philosopher


~ Per Mirriam-Webster

 

[Pohemi]

It all depends on a persons approach.... the problem is many folks take the bible literally rather then really trying to understand its message.

Interpreting the bible (and most religious tomes) as philosophy rather then some kind of twisted "rule-book" can really change ones perspective.

The conflict is between religious fundamentalists and reason not the concept of God itself far as I can tell.

As Wu-Tang says- "GOD" : Good Orderly Direction, and 'BIBLE' : Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth

I don't deny that there are some good notions, ideas, philosophies, or guidelines contained in scriptures, but that basically requires cherry-picking to ditch other parts that suggest damnation, violence, etc.

Personally, I'd just as soon ditch the whole thing. Reading it and translating it in a philosophical manner as opposed to literally should be obvious to any but easily-led non-thinkers, but here we are with billions of people stating it as fact (sometimes when they haven't even read it themselves).

 

[Captante]

As Wu-Tang says- "GOD" : Good Orderly Direction, and 'BIBLE' : Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth

I don't deny that there are some good notions, ideas, philosophies, or guidelines contained in scriptures, but that basically requires cherry-picking to ditch other parts that suggest damnation, violence, etc.

Personally, I'd just as soon ditch the whole thing. Reading it and translating it in a philosophical manner as opposed to literally should be obvious to any but easily-led non-thinkers, but here we are with billions of people stating it as fact (sometimes when they haven't even read it themselves).

Not being an easily led non-thinker myself I'm not all that concerned personally although I do understand where your coming from.

As mentioned previously I find it interesting and useful to at least try to understand why people do what they do and being familiar with what they believe is true is part of that. (sorta like being familiar with Windows 11.... sorta!)

Here on AT the majority are intelligent and/or well educated and understand that religion is about controlling people and that it was invented by men not God as a tool for doing so.

The majority out there in the cold, hard world however this cannot be said of.

 

[MtnMan]

As Wu-Tang says- "GOD" : Good Orderly Direction, and 'BIBLE' : Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth

I don't deny that there are some good notions, ideas, philosophies, or guidelines contained in scriptures, but that basically requires cherry-picking to ditch other parts that suggest damnation, violence, etc.

Personally, I'd just as soon ditch the whole thing. Reading it and translating it in a philosophical manner as opposed to literally should be obvious to any but easily-led non-thinkers, but here we are with billions of people stating it as fact (sometimes when they haven't even read it themselves).

But they (the good notions) carry very little water.

The hated, racism, misogyny, child abuse, violence, division, discrimination, science deniers, that anchors man to the beliefs of ancient goat herders who didn't know where the sun went at night, based on "interpretation" of those same scriptures is carrying a lot more water in society.

 

[Captante]

But they (the good notions) carry very little water.

The hated, racism, misogyny, child abuse, violence, division, discrimination, science deniers, that anchors man to the beliefs of ancient goat herders who didn't know where the sun went at night, based on "interpretation" of those same scriptures is carrying a lot more water in society.

Truth is we barely know more then they did.

 

[MtnMan]

Truth is we barely know more then they did.

The vast majority of scientists don't believe in any god. Of course, there are outliers, such as the Texas doctor that believe in alien DNA and demon sperm.

 

[Captante]

The vast majority of scientists don't believe in any god. Of course, there are outliers, such as the Texas doctor that believe in alien DNA and demon sperm.

Again it all depends on what you call "God".... I suspect if you were to have a conversation with 100 random highly educated people in the scientific or medical field you would find the reality a tad more nuanced.

Ahhh good old P&N.

 

[Commodus]

My response to the point you're raising would be similar to what I just recently wrote up above on this page to vjeltz. In no way am I posting because I am "assuming everyone accepts my worldview". That's never even crossed my mind, let alone a concept that I actually believe.

In fact, my guess is hardly any of you agree with me at all. It doesn't phase me because what I personally think isn't even important. The only thing that's important from my POV is what the Lord wants of me at any given time. For the unsaved out there, what should concern you is what God's response is to what you say, do and think - don't worry about what I want at all.

I'm sorry, but this is explicitly false; you even contradicted yourself in this very statement.

You may acknowledge that "hardly any" agree with you, but you generally try to frame every discussion not just as if the Bible is a universally accepted truth, but that your particular interpretation of it is a universal truth. You do know many Christians don't expect a rapture, right?

And yes, this includes your attempts to persuade others (despite your incorrect claims, that's what you're trying). You just said "for the unsaved out there, what should concern you is..." you're arguing as if fear of being unsaved matters to us. If I have no reason to believe in any gods, why would I have that fear?

The issue is that you aren't really willing to consider the non-religious mindset in discussions. Frankly, it's clear you're uncomfortable with taking even a partially detached view of things, as if really, truly accepting that others don't share your beliefs is tantamount to rejecting those beliefs yourself. It is possible to maintain full conviction while being genuinely considerate of others who don't share that conviction; I just wish you'd actually try.

 

[cytg111]

Yes. I am pissed off.

 

[Moonbeam]

Again it all depends on what you call "God".... I suspect if you were to have a conversation with 100 random highly educated people in the scientific or medical field you would find the reality a tad more nuanced.

Ahhh good old P&N.

He knows what the majority of scientists think the same way that arredondo establishes his beliefs, he read it somewhere from an authority source.