Is god pissed?

[ch33zw1z]

Soo, is god pissed? Tell us how you know!

I don’t think any god is pissed, most likely because they dont exist.

Now your turn

 

[ch33zw1z]

man are you gonna be real sad when you find out hinduism has been around far longer than christianity or judaism, and must therefore be the correct religion because it's been around longer.

also, your argument is rooted in tradition rather than logic. you're essentially saying "because we've always done things this way" which is kind of the antithesis to the progression of humanity.

Yes, this is the Appeal to Tradition fallacy.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Science is belief without evidence in every hypotheses in formulation until others have established the insight that led to its formulation predicts consistent results. Science is faith in that process because of results. Religion is faith that some psychological discipline prescribed by a person with the knowledge of how to transmit it to another produces a similar enlightenment. You have a tradition or cultural roots in the scientific method, but no belief that a transcendent conscious state is possible or that any real teaching of it exists.

Because of the threat to the ego any news you are missing something of vital will produce a defensive reaction. The way past this is only open to those with a profound sense of curiosity that a science of mind might exist, or who suffer so badly they can’t stay asleep.

As you know, I am not a person of faith. I am only empty of things others believe. I know nothing. I survived a shipwreck and woke up on a hidden island full of pirate treasure. Now back to sleep. There’s a hungry wild kitty ar my back door I want to feed.

Speculation, intuition, etc….is not belief. I guess you could attribute belief in the method and its ability to prove a hypothesis.

The glaring difference here is that scientists are either going to prove or disprove a hypothesis.

Religious people won’t prove their deity exists, but expect you to believe them anyways

 

[Moonbeam]

Let's say I move to a land in which people are dreary and dull and spend all their time worrying and complaining about things and I've come from a place where people dance drink wine together get tipsy and have lots of fun so I decide to introduce a new religion with the promise that people can experience ecstasy by partaking of the grape. I import cuttings and root stock teach grafting techniques, how to string out the vines allow air circulation and sun to reach the grapes etc and all the fermentation techniques to produce the holy spirit. That is what religion is like. But none of that will prove anything about the existence of different state of consciousness or the ecstatic state unless one actually drinks. You can pray till you are blue in the face or preach the wonders therein contained till the cows come home, but none of it will avail.

The purpose of religion in my opinion isn't to prove there is a God to anybody else but to experience for yourself there exists an altered state of consciousness in which the separation of self and non-self vanishes as the lover and the beloved become one and the same thing.
Imagine that humans are like holes in a tent and God as the light of the sun. If you look at the wall of the tent you can see billions of holes but if you look within you will look directly into the sun. But if you were made to feel worthless how will you look withing since you are already full of lies about what you will find.

 

[dank69]

... Science is faith in that process because of results. ...

No, there is tons of evidence that the process delivers results. Results that are repeatable. Results that anyone else can test for themselves and witness the results first hand. Zero faith needed.

 

[Moonbeam]

No, there is tons of evidence that the process delivers results. Results that are repeatable. Results that anyone else can test for themselves and witness the results first hand. Zero faith needed.

Of this tons of evidence how much of it have you personally verified and how much do you take on faith that it has been verified.

In the article on the evolutionary origins of religion numerous scientific theories where presented suggesting the survival value it confers, a sense of well being it offers to its believers, as well as its inevitability due to brain size. Perhaps it is the pea brains among us who find faith contemptible.

All I have said is that my personal experience as a person for whom only scientific evidence of the existence of God could make a believer out of me and it’s failure to do so led me into an existential crisis of despair from which reading Zen literature suggested ideas I had never considered and a moment of insight that completely altered my world view.

In any of the big religion I look at I see what I experienced personally at the core of it, buried under the accumulated ravages of self hate produced rubbish. They were all propounded by people who in my opinion lived lives in a conscious state without a perception of duality. Religions are the misunderstood historical records of such efforts in my opinion.

Unfortunately since such profound and vital insights of what might be termed spiritually evolved people in so many ways corrupted by lack of real comprehension over time, the scientific method focused on where is the proof of God, threw the baby out with the bath water,leaving them doubtful of the spiritual nature of grace, never to consider that knowing God requires special scientific instruments they doubt exist.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Of this tons of evidence how much of it have you personally verified and how much do you take on faith that it has been verified.

In the article on the evolutionary origins of religion numerous scientific theories where presented suggesting the survival value it confers, a sense of well being it offers to its believers, as well as its inevitability due to brain size. Perhaps it is the pea brains among us who find faith contemptible.

All I have said is that my personal experience as a person for whom only scientific evidence of the existence of God could make a believer out of me and it’s failure to do so led me into an existential crisis of despair from which reading Zen literature suggested ideas I had never considered and a moment of insight that completely altered my world view.

In any of the big religion I look at I see what I experienced personally at the core of it, buried under the accumulated ravages of self hate produced rubbish. They were all propounded by people who in my opinion lived lives in a conscious state without a perception of duality. Religions are the misunderstood historical records of such efforts in my opinion.

Unfortunately since such profound and vital insights of what might be termed spiritually evolved people in so many ways corrupted by lack of real comprehension over time, the scientific method focused on where is the proof of God, threw the baby out with the bath water,leaving them doubtful of the spiritual nature of grace, never to consider that knowing God requires special scientific instruments they doubt exist.

Have you ever used GPS navigation? Congratulations, you verified multiple scientific principles, including:

Newtons first law
Newtons second law
Newtons third law
Special relativity
Orbital mechanics/gravity

Because GPS cannot work unless those things are real.

And now I will go lash myself for responding to a moonbeam post

 

[Moonbeam]

Have you ever used GPS navigation? Congratulations, you verified multiple scientific principles, including:

Newtons first law
Newtons second law
Newtons third law
Special relativity
Orbital mechanics/gravity

Because GPS cannot work unless those things are real.

And now I will go lash myself for responding to a moonbeam post

How self important do you have to be to imagine that responding to me makes you punishment worthy. And so much bother with GPS.
I was found by Amazing Grace.

 

[dank69]

Of this tons of evidence how much of it have you personally verified and how much do you take on faith that it has been verified.

I don't take anything on faith that it has been verified. I know that if it is bullshit then it will collapse during peer-review, or if/when new evidence is found to contradict it.

In the article on the evolutionary origins of religion numerous scientific theories where presented suggesting the survival value it confers, a sense of well being it offers to its believers, as well as its inevitability due to brain size. Perhaps it is the pea brains among us who find faith contemptible.

If "scientific theories" is being used correctly in this context then that means there is evidence for each of them that has been tested and peer-reviewed, and the results can be reproduced by people with the expertise to do so. That would mean that faith is not required to "believe" each theory. If "scientific theories" in this context just means "some people think" then it isn't likely to be useful.

If these theories are indeed the former, we would need to know if "the survival value it confers" is offset by other side effects such as turning the brain to pudding to the point that when orange man goes on TV to say you can't trust your eyes and ears but only what he says, well that sounds completely reasonable. What good is this possible bonus "survival value" when it just makes it easier to convince them to vote themselves off the island?

All I have said is that my personal experience as a person for whom only scientific evidence of the existence of God could make a believer out of me and it’s failure to do so led me into an existential crisis of despair from which reading Zen literature suggested ideas I had never considered and a moment of insight that completely altered my world view.

In any of the big religion I look at I see what I experienced personally at the core of it, buried under the accumulated ravages of self hate produced rubbish. They were all propounded by people who in my opinion lived lives in a conscious state without a perception of duality. Religions are the misunderstood historical records of such efforts in my opinion.

Unfortunately since such profound and vital insights of what might be termed spiritually evolved people in so many ways corrupted by lack of real comprehension over time, the scientific method focused on where is the proof of God, threw the baby out with the bath water,leaving them doubtful of the spiritual nature of grace, never to consider that knowing God requires special scientific instruments they doubt exist.

Who says any babies have been thrown out? That is an assumption by you. Billions of people are exploring every possibility they can to the best of their ability every second of every day. Lot's of useful information is discovered every day, yet very little (if any) of it is coming in the form of benefits of faith or religion, and if there are benefits you have to weigh them against the downsides, especially if they cannot be separated.

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't take anything on faith that it has been verified. I know that if it is bullshit then it will collapse during peer-review, or if/when new evidence is found to contradict it.

Here you say you know something that allows you the certainty of being trustworthy. But unlike you I don't know anything. Is there any proof you can offer that would allow me to have this faith in the truth of what you say? Have you not entered the state of having unexamined assumptions being projected as truth. I always thought there was a monkey in the sky somewhere who has a big basket of scientific theories from which he draws at random and orders the universe to cooperate.

If "scientific theories" is being used correctly in this context then that means there is evidence for each of them that has been tested and peer-reviewed, and the results can be reproduced by people with the expertise to do so. That would mean that faith is not required to "believe" each theory. If "scientific theories" in this context just means "some people think" then it isn't likely to be useful.

The point I have made and which you so far have not dealt with is that there is a science behind the teachings of enlightened men who know how to teach. Western science teaches that physical principles lie at the heart of physical phenomenon, lightning is the result of electric charge not some angry god, etc. These laws given an understanding of the theory and the apparatus to test with can be verified and a accepted by a population that is open to trust the methodology. Science can go nowhere without that trust communal trust.

In Eastern schools of knowledge of how the mind is able to enter different conscious states methods exist for those who trust to do the experiments. The difference is that the laboratory and all the results are known only to those who already know or have just become aware. The results of the experience can only be known to those who meet the requirements and run the experiment. Scientists become scientists because they have faith that science reveals certain truths. People seek out the wise to learn how to become that way themselves. They trust what they see in the teacher. The Bible says you will know them by their fruits. You learn fruit knowledge by tasting.

If these theories are indeed the former, we would need to know if "the survival value it confers" is offset by other side effects such as turning the brain to pudding to the point that when orange man goes on TV to say you can't trust your eyes and ears but only what he says, well that sounds completely reasonable. What good is this possible bonus "survival value" when it just makes it easier to convince them to vote themselves off the island?

Well I see in Christianity the relics of a long dead enlightened teacher but I have little faith in many of its followers. Still the essence seems to reach some of them. I met one years ago, a janitor at the local Catholic church I regularly had coffee with and who told me his job was to keep the priests there from falling asleep. I could feel his love for me. He was a Yugoslavian and his personal space was about six inches. He'd grab my shirt and draw my face up to his to speak. His whole being screamed I know who God is.

Who says any babies have been thrown out? That is an assumption by you. Billions of people are exploring every possibility they can to the best of their ability every second of every day. Lot's of useful information is discovered every day, yet very little (if any) of it is coming in the form of benefits of faith or religion, and if there are benefits you have to weigh them against the downsides, especially if they cannot be separated.

I,of course said it and you are the proof of it. You address me from the world of duality where positives and negatives exist. Heaven is heaven because it is perfection itself. Is there a conscious state of awareness in which opposites do not exist. I ran the experiment and the answer is yes. Why are you wasting time casting doubt on religious faith when in reality what you are doing is using your own doubt to to say to yourself you are not worthy of saving. Nothing in this dialog on religion yes or know has any interest to me other than to suggest to you that there is a Truth with a capital T and you are worth the joy of experiencing of it can bring. I don't have faith. I don't have doubt. I know.

But I'm inclined to forget that I do.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Ya know, people who know that their perspective is true and just beyond a shadow of a doubt are the same people who become zealots capable of horrible things. Weird.

 

[APU_Fusion]

I am the direct reincarnation of Arjuna and I sayeth that Leeea lives in delusion believing himself to have direct contact and knowledge of God. For if he were in Truth a true disciple he would humble himself in the closet of deepest meditation while serving others in compassionate silence. The Lord serves in silence while those on the Wheel of Delusion talk.

😁

 

[arredondo]

Can't you just post one instead of thousands?

Haha, I guess some of the posts do get a bit long. I tell you what - if you simply focus on the scriptures I quote and ignore whatever I type up in between them, you'll have less to read and you are guaranteed to be tremendously blessed in the process.

 

[arredondo]

Not just the crusades, and not just Christianity. Christians specifically have little qualms about harming vulnerable people groups, and Islam has no problem with it either, those two alone cover half the worlds population.

Modern examples are how non believers or people who don’t fit the mold are treated.

In regards to the comment of yours that I highlighted, just because someone claims to do something in the name of Jesus Christ does not make them a Christian, nor does it make their actions a directive of God. Only the Lord can determine who is Christian and what He directs them to do through the Holy Spirit:

The term "Christian" means Christ-like, and Jesus said that we can know who is behaving in a Christ-like matter (so to say) by the results of the thoughts, words and deeds that they show.. This is explained by Jesus in an analogy that compares a person to a tree that is known known by the fruit that it bears:

~~~~~
Matthew 7:15-20
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits."
~~~~~

So just because someone claims they are Christian, let what God says about how a Christian should emulate Christ before you believe them. The only way to know if they are doing so, of course, is to read the bible to know what it says about the Savior of the world. After sharing the warning above, Jesus immediately goes on to show what happen to those who claimed to be Christian but were unsaved all along when they finally died:

~~~~~
Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!"
~~~~~

...and those unrepentant sinners are immediately thrown into hell by God's angels. It really is that simple. People can claim they are a part of the true faith that is presented in the word of God all they want, but since Jesus is the only one who defines what Christianity really is, it makes sense to take His word for who is one of His and who is not:

~~~~~
Luke 6:46
"Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?"
~~~~~

 

[arredondo]

LOL:

1 Samuel 15:3 NIV
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”

Numbers 31:17-‬18 NIV
Again, kill innocent little boys. Even women that slept with a man. I have no idea how they will know whether a woman slept with someone or not to be honest. Not only that, but commanded them to take the girls that didn't sleep with anyone for the men.
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Joshua 6:21 NIV
Again, God commanded Joshua to destroy everything and everyone
They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

The big picture perspective is this: the Lord created everyone as a spirit that eventually are placed into a physical "temple" that grows into a body that possesses a soul to interact within the body with the reality that the person is in (i.e. emotions, one's intellect, responses to the five senses, etc.). Example verses:

~~~~~
Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 2:7
"...then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature."

<after the physical death:>
Ecclesiastes 12:7
"...and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

1 Corinthians 5:3a
"For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; "

Isaiah 26:9
"My soul yearns for You in the night; my spirit within me earnestly seeks You. For when Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness."

Mark 12:30
"And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
~~~~~

This is important to note because of the perception of death by many people is incomplete, as far as what the bible explains. For obvious reasons, the main focus of most is what the bible calls the first death, which is physical. It is when the body ceases to function, and the word of God recognizes that as well but more specifically it says it no longer functions because the spirit (which is the "real" you made in God's image) has separated from it.

The first death is a reality in the life experience because of sin (Genesis 2:17), as I've shared several times in this thread. The bodies created by God were perfect in the Garden of Eden, but were cursed by sin like everything else in the universe when Adam and Eve disobeyed God's commandment (Genesis chapters 1-3). No one can say that is unfair based on the sin of Adam and Eve because the bible also says you too have sinned (just like me):

~~~~~
Romans 5:12
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"
~~~~~

The reason I am highlighting these passages is to back up the statement above about the need to focus on the big picture. As terrible as the "first death", which is guaranteed for just about everyone when their physical life comes to an end, what is literally infinitely more terrible by a magnitude of a million-billion-trillion is the second death, which is spiritual.

That is also a separation, but in this case it is the separation of you the spirit from your Creator for eternity. Only one place exists for that to happen - hell. It was a place made solely for the devil and his demons who fell from heaven with him because of their disobedience (Matthew 25:41), but the lake of fire will also accommodate all people who have both sinned (which is everyone - Romans 3:23) and who have also rejected the gift of salvation based on the sacrifice of Jesus who died for those sins (John 3:16):

~~~~~
2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

Revelation 20:14b-15
"This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
~~~~~

If anything is taken from this collection of verses, it should be that the second death is far, far, far worse than the first death. In fact, like a lot of things (good and bad) that are experienced in a life time, the reality of the physical death is to be properly understood as something to warn us to do what is necessary to avoid the second spiritual death.

For the unsaved, they do not have to wait until the afterlife to be declared spiritually dead. Sadly, they are dead through judgment for not accepting forgiveness for their sins in that sense already (separated from God):

~~~~~
John 3:17-20
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."
~~~~~

All physical deaths are a horrible reality. Your list of bible passages leaves out some even greater examples of this... for instance, the great flood destroyed everyone in the world except for one man, his wife, three sons and their wives. Everyone else died. The Lord sent down fire and brimstone from heaven to wipe out Sodom and Gomorrah (except for one man, his wife and their daughters). There are many, many nations from the ancient times that have been completely wiped out in history, like Babylon, Tyre, Sidon, Edom, and yes, Moab and Amalek.

All of those examples have one thing in common - they were all completely immersed in deep sin, according to the bible. This is what it says about the sinful condition of the world that led to the flood be released to kill 99.9999% of the population on earth:

~~~~~
Genesis 6:5
"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
~~~~~

People do not like to hear it, by the Lord judges sin. Again, it's why pretty much everyone will eventually suffer the first death. It's just a question of how and when that death comes. The second death is where the ultimate focus should be on because that is infinitely worse. It's with that in mind that God offers an escape from it that could not be easier... simply accept the free gift of salvation from His Son!

In the cases of several of the nations mentioned in the bible that were judged by God to be destroyed, please understand that their situations also offer the examples of the Lord's other aspects of His nature other than judgement, and that's His grace, mercy and patience. Just like the case of some of the sinners reading this text, God didn't destroy these nations after one sin, or even two sins. That is because He wants to give a chance for repentance to all if they will accept forgiveness with an honest, repentant heart.

Consider the Amalekites you mentioned. The evil works they committed that so upset God happened when the weak and nearly defenseless Jewish people fled from Egypt after 400 years of slavery, and out in the wilderness their most vulnerable was attacked from behind by the people of Amalek. Decades later, God said this to His people about that episode:

~~~~~
Deuteronomy 25:17–19
"Remember what Amalek did to you on the way as you came out of Egypt, how he attacked you on the way when you were faint and weary, and cut off your tail, those who were lagging behind you, and he did not fear God. Therefore when the Lord your God has given you rest from all your enemies around you, in the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you shall not forget."
~~~~~

Why didn't God have them destroyed immediately? Because he wanted to give a chance for the Amalekites to repent for their sins. The Lord does this over and over again, not just to nations, but to individual people.

~~~~~
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some consider slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

Psalms 86:15
"But You, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness."
~~~~~

Despite the Lord's patience with them, the Amalekites continued in their wickedness, particularly against His people. Finally, in 1 Samuel 15., God commanded that they be destroyed, but it was hundreds of years after their initial offense. That's patience, but even though the Lord is longsuffering, it does not mean He suffers from determined rebellion forever.

It is truly sad that when judgement comes, sometimes the young have perished as well. Thankfully, anyone who has not reached the age of accountability will not experience the second and more devastating second death of eternity in hell, but will instead be in heaven.

God is not indifferent to any of this. Death by any means hurts His heart, which is why he set out to provide a way to ultimately defeat it. Jesus wept when his friend Lazarus died, but He also took that as an opportunity to encourage everyone by raising Lazarus from his physical dead that the same will be true for those who are resurrected spiritually through a relationship with Him ((John 11 details all of this).

Also, it is especially important to mention the obvious: our Father in heaven suffered when His own innocent Son was brutally murdered, but it is through that act (after Jesus prayed to His Father to forgive the sinners before He breathed His last - Luke 23:34) that we have the only way to be saved from the second death through Christ.

Lastly, even for nations this amazing opportunity to be saved from a sinful past from future anhelation has played itself out in the bible. Consider the city of Nineveh, which was one of the most powerful entities in the ancient world. They were soaked in sin like many of the other examples I posted above, and God sent Jonah to tell them that they would be destroyed in 40 days. What happened next is astounding:

~~~~~
Jonah 3:5-10
When the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them. When the word reached the king of Nineveh, he arose from his throne, laid aside his robe from him, covered himself with sackcloth and sat on the ashes. He issued a proclamation and it said:

“In Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let man, beast, herd, or flock taste a thing. Do not let them eat or drink water. But both man and beast must be covered with sackcloth; and let men call on God earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands. Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish.”

When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
~~~~~

In fact, Nineveh not only avoided destruction after the 40 days were up, they went on to thrive for another 120 years! What happened next? After a few generations of serving the Lord, the later generations increasingly went back to the sinful ways. God sent another prophet in Nahum a hundred years later to warn them of imminent doom but they did not listen this time and were completely wiped out of existence twenty years after that.

Summary: all people will die the first death in one way or another. God made a way to avoid the ultimate second death for those who are able to choose between right and wrong, good and evil through the forgiveness provided by Jesus Christ from His death (and resurrection) on the cross for their sins. He offers plenty of opportunities for individuals and nations alike to repent and be covered by His grace through His love and patience, but time eventually runs out.

Joshua put it this way to his people after forty years wandering in the wilderness due to the lack of faith in God were over:

~~~~~
Joshua 24:15
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
~~~~~

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Jesus saves from the fires of hell. Okay, but who is throwing people into the fires of hell? ... Who is throwing people into the fires of hell?

Since responding to the no true Scotsman fallacy in post 614 is a waste of time.

 

[ch33zw1z]

In regards to the comment of yours that I highlighted, just because someone claims to do something in the name of Jesus Christ does not make them a Christian, nor does it make their actions a directive of God. Only the Lord can determine who is Christian and what He directs them to do through the Holy Spirit:

The term "Christian" means Christ-like, and Jesus said that we can know who is behaving in a Christ-like matter (so to say) by the results of the thoughts, words and deeds that they show.. This is explained by Jesus in an analogy that compares a person to a tree that is known known by the fruit that it bears:

~~~~~
Matthew 7:15-20
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits."
~~~~~

So just because someone claims they are Christian, let what God says about how a Christian should emulate Christ before you believe them. The only way to know if they are doing so, of course, is to read the bible to know what it says about the Savior of the world. After sharing the warning above, Jesus immediately goes on to show what happen to those who claimed to be Christian but were unsaved all along when they finally died:

~~~~~
Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!"
~~~~~

...and those unrepentant sinners are immediately thrown into hell by God's angels. It really is that simple. People can claim they are a part of the true faith that is presented in the word of God all they want, but since Jesus is the only one who defines what Christianity really is, it makes sense to take His word for who is one of His and who is not:

~~~~~
Luke 6:46
"Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?"
~~~~~

Cool story, little comfort to those who are persecuted by Christian’s. They’re not true Christian’s though, right?

 

[dank69]

The big picture perspective is this: the Lord created everyone as a spirit that eventually are placed into a physical "temple" that grows into a body that possesses a soul to interact within the body with the reality that the person is in (i.e. emotions, one's intellect, responses to the five senses, etc.). Example verses:

~~~~~
Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 2:7
"...then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature."

<after the physical death:>
Ecclesiastes 12:7
"...and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

1 Corinthians 5:3a
"For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; "

Isaiah 26:9
"My soul yearns for You in the night; my spirit within me earnestly seeks You. For when Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness."

Mark 12:30
"And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
~~~~~

This is important to note because of the perception of death by many people is incomplete, as far as what the bible explains. For obvious reasons, the main focus of most is what the bible calls the first death, which is physical. It is when the body ceases to function, and the word of God recognizes that as well but more specifically it says it no longer functions because the spirit (which is the "real" you made in God's image) has separated from it.

The first death is a reality in the life experience because of sin (Genesis 2:17), as I've shared several times in this thread. The bodies created by God were perfect in the Garden of Eden, but were cursed by sin like everything else in the universe when Adam and Eve disobeyed God's commandment (Genesis chapters 1-3). No one can say that is unfair based on the sin of Adam and Eve because the bible also says you too have sinned (just like me):

~~~~~
Romans 5:12
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"
~~~~~

The reason I am highlighting these passages is to back up the statement above about the need to focus on the big picture. As terrible as the "first death", which is guaranteed for just about everyone when their physical life comes to an end, what is literally infinitely more terrible by a magnitude of a million-billion-trillion is the second death, which is spiritual.

That is also a separation, but in this case it is the separation of you the spirit from your Creator for eternity. Only one place exists for that to happen - hell. It was a place made solely for the devil and his demons who fell from heaven with him because of their disobedience (Matthew 25:41), but the lake of fire will also accommodate all people who have both sinned (which is everyone - Romans 3:23) and who have also rejected the gift of salvation based on the sacrifice of Jesus who died for those sins (John 3:16):

~~~~~
2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

Revelation 20:14b-15
"This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
~~~~~

If anything is taken from this collection of verses, it should be that the second death is far, far, far worse than the first death. In fact, like a lot of things (good and bad) that are experienced in a life time, the reality of the physical death is to be properly understood as something to warn us to do what is necessary to avoid the second spiritual death.

For the unsaved, they do not have to wait until the afterlife to be declared spiritually dead. Sadly, they are dead through judgment for not accepting forgiveness for their sins in that sense already (separated from God):

~~~~~
John 3:17-20
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."
~~~~~

All physical deaths are a horrible reality. Your list of bible passages leaves out some even greater examples of this... for instance, the great flood destroyed everyone in the world except for one man, his wife, three sons and their wives. Everyone else died. The Lord sent down fire and brimstone from heaven to wipe out Sodom and Gomorrah (except for one man, his wife and their daughters). There are many, many nations from the ancient times that have been completely wiped out in history, like Babylon, Tyre, Sidon, Edom, and yes, Moab and Amalek.

All of those examples have one thing in common - they were all completely immersed in deep sin, according to the bible. This is what it says about the sinful condition of the world that led to the flood be released to kill 99.9999% of the population on earth:

~~~~~
Genesis 6:5
"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
~~~~~

People do not like to hear it, by the Lord judges sin. Again, it's why pretty much everyone will eventually suffer the first death. It's just a question of how and when that death comes. The second death is where the ultimate focus should be on because that is infinitely worse. It's with that in mind that God offers an escape from it that could not be easier... simply accept the free gift of salvation from His Son!

In the cases of several of the nations mentioned in the bible that were judged by God to be destroyed, please understand that their situations also offer the examples of the Lord's other aspects of His nature other than judgement, and that's His grace, mercy and patience. Just like the case of some of the sinners reading this text, God didn't destroy these nations after one sin, or even two sins. That is because He wants to give a chance for repentance to all if they will accept forgiveness with an honest, repentant heart.

Consider the Amalekites you mentioned. The evil works they committed that so upset God happened when the weak and nearly defenseless Jewish people fled from Egypt after 400 years of slavery, and out in the wilderness their most vulnerable was attacked from behind by the people of Amalek. Decades later, God said this to His people about that episode:

~~~~~
Deuteronomy 25:17–19
"Remember what Amalek did to you on the way as you came out of Egypt, how he attacked you on the way when you were faint and weary, and cut off your tail, those who were lagging behind you, and he did not fear God. Therefore when the Lord your God has given you rest from all your enemies around you, in the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you shall not forget."
~~~~~

Why didn't God have them destroyed immediately? Because he wanted to give a chance for the Amalekites to repent for their sins. The Lord does this over and over again, not just to nations, but to individual people.

~~~~~
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some consider slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

Psalms 86:15
"But You, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness."
~~~~~

Despite the Lord's patience with them, the Amalekites continued in their wickedness, particularly against His people. Finally, in 1 Samuel 15., God commanded that they be destroyed, but it was hundreds of years after their initial offense. That's patience, but even though the Lord is longsuffering, it does not mean He suffers from determined rebellion forever.

It is truly sad that when judgement comes, sometimes the young have perished as well. Thankfully, anyone who has not reached the age of accountability will not experience the second and more devastating second death of eternity in hell, but will instead be in heaven.

God is not indifferent to any of this. Death by any means hurts His heart, which is why he set out to provide a way to ultimately defeat it. Jesus wept when his friend Lazarus died, but He also took that as an opportunity to encourage everyone by raising Lazarus from his physical dead that the same will be true for those who are resurrected spiritually through a relationship with Him ((John 11 details all of this).

Also, it is especially important to mention the obvious: our Father in heaven suffered when His own innocent Son was brutally murdered, but it is through that act (after Jesus prayed to His Father to forgive the sinners before He breathed His last - Luke 23:34) that we have the only way to be saved from the second death through Christ.

Lastly, even for nations this amazing opportunity to be saved from a sinful past from future anhelation has played itself out in the bible. Consider the city of Nineveh, which was one of the most powerful entities in the ancient world. They were soaked in sin like many of the other examples I posted above, and God sent Jonah to tell them that they would be destroyed in 40 days. What happened next is astounding:

~~~~~
Jonah 3:5-10
When the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them. When the word reached the king of Nineveh, he arose from his throne, laid aside his robe from him, covered himself with sackcloth and sat on the ashes. He issued a proclamation and it said:

“In Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let man, beast, herd, or flock taste a thing. Do not let them eat or drink water. But both man and beast must be covered with sackcloth; and let men call on God earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands. Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish.”

When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
~~~~~

In fact, Nineveh not only avoided destruction after the 40 days were up, they went on to thrive for another 120 years! What happened next? After a few generations of serving the Lord, the later generations increasingly went back to the sinful ways. God sent another prophet in Nahum a hundred years later to warn them of imminent doom but they did not listen this time and were completely wiped out of existence twenty years after that.

Summary: all people will die the first death in one way or another. God made a way to avoid the ultimate second death for those who are able to choose between right and wrong, good and evil through the forgiveness provided by Jesus Christ from His death (and resurrection) on the cross for their sins. He offers plenty of opportunities for individuals and nations alike to repent and be covered by His grace through His love and patience, but time eventually runs out.

Joshua put it this way to his people after forty years wandering in the wilderness due to the lack of faith in God were over:

~~~~~
Joshua 24:15
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
~~~~~

Look, you said God would never hurt an innocent, yet there were certainly innocent children and babies among the Amalekites. Your religion has no internal consistency, and no amount of scripture or pretzel logic can refute it.

You believe in a universe where gangsters can rape and murder to their hearts' content but then "accept Christ" on their deathbeds and go to heaven while poor tribal children who've never heard the word Christ during their lifetime will suffer for all eternity. You're welcome to believe/respect such a system, but don't expect other people to play along or pretend you have a sane outlook on eternal existence.

 

[ch33zw1z]

We’re all born sinners, so no one is innocent. Checkmate heathen.

 

[APU_Fusion]

Round and round we go on the irrational fact free religaround.

Bhagavad Gita is the only truth. Jesus is Satan trying to trick humanity into believing the false promise that their redemption resides outside of their own Power. Arredondo is a satan worshipper.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Round and round we go on the irrational fact free religaround.

Bhagavad Gita is the only truth. Jesus is Satan trying to trick humanity into believing the false promise that their redemption resides outside of their own Power. Arredondo is a satan worshipper.

In the everlasting words of apostle RAtM, fear is your only god

 

[arredondo]

Cool story, little comfort to those who are persecuted by Christian’s. They’re not true Christian’s though, right?

You must have read the post I shared that you are quoting because it seems now you get it.

 

[arredondo]

Look, you said God would never hurt an innocent, yet there were certainly innocent children and babies among the Amalekites. Your religion has no internal consistency, and no amount of scripture or pretzel logic can refute it.

You believe in a universe where gangsters can rape and murder to their hearts' content but then "accept Christ" on their deathbeds and go to heaven while poor tribal children who've never heard the word Christ during their lifetime will suffer for all eternity. You're welcome to believe/respect such a system, but don't expect other people to play along or pretend you have a sane outlook on eternal existence.

To the first paragraph, don't simply claim something such as "you said" towards me without actually quoting what I supposedly wrote before shooting it down. It's an act of arguing with yourself if it turns out you're the one who wrote it.

To the second paragraph, it doesn't matter what I believe. All I'm doing is sharing what the bible says about a particular topic or issue if I am able to do so (and I make no claims at knowing everything about God and His word).

With that said, the reason the concept of the offer of the Lord's complete forgiveness to anyone seems to be so appalling to you is primarily for two reasons: you overestimate your own goodness and underestimate God's holiness. The first half of your example about the gangsters who "rape and murder to their hearts' content" describes completely wretched and wicked human beings that deserve all the punishment coming their way and more. I do not disagree, and neither does the Lord according to a bajillion scriptures railing against evil people. I've quoted plenty of them in this thread.

However, without explicitly stating it, you likely believe that if God were "fair" according to your definition), you would not receive the same punishment as them for your wrongdoing. Here's the truth - everyone sins in many, many, many ways throughout their lifetime, which is to say that we've all intentionally defied His commandments for doing the right thing over and over again.

~~~~~
Jerimiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?"

Romans 3:23
"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
~~~~~

That's proof that the word of God says you underestimate your own goodness when it states how bad your unsaved heart is, and that you don't even know how bad it is. The next verse there goes on to say this applies to everyone who refuses to accept the Lord. The law of God has only one spiritual punishment for sin (Genesis 2:17) in the next life - separation from Him because he is holy. This is what you underestimate.

A person with any sin charged to them cannot be around the Father in heaven. Separation from God is the bible's definition of death in the afterlife (called the second death), and only hell exists to accommodate that person's eternal existence to remain separate from him:

~~~~~
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
~~~~~

Now, for the violent gangster you point your finger at, I wrote in this post that the bible indicates that the amount and severity of his sins means that his suffering in hell will be more intense than yours (should you choose to continue to reject Jesus' free offer of forgiveness for your sins), but the flames of eternal damnation will be the payment you both have respectively earned and will receive for all the wrongdoing you have done in this lifetime:

~~~~~
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
~~~~~

The Lord won't let your sin enter heaven because it will infect that place just as it has already done here on earth. Adam and Eve committed one sin, and look at how bad things are in the world now! Please, don't minimize your own sins by comparing them to someone worse because in the end, it won't matter. The scriptures clearly state that the wrath of God will be poured out on ALL sin and unrighteousness (Ezekiel 30:15, Romans 1:18), not just the people we think are extra mean.

This is why Jesus chose to take everyone's sin upon Himself. Despite all the physical torment He suffered over 2,000 years ago on the cross, the wrath of God being poured over Him for our sins is what punished Him the most. He died for that reason, and it is because God loves you (John 3:16). Your debt to the Lord (as well as anyone else, including your vicious gangsters) for sins is now paid in full, but it won't do you any good if you continue to be in rebellion since He will never force you to accept His forgiveness.

The vicious gangsters who accept the gift of forgiveness would be in heaven and not you. Why? Not because of anything "good" they've done, but for the "good" that Jesus did for everyone:

~~~~~
1Peter 3:18a
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust"
~~~~~

As explained above, according to God's law, everyone who sinned deserves eternal damnation. Everyone also has the offer for forgiveness... that's how much love the Lord has. However, don't act as if a person can simply ask the Lord for His grace in the last ten seconds of his life and all is well. On paper it works like that, but in real life it isn't so simple.

For one, no one is guaranteed the next breath that the Lord allows them to breathe. Too many people die suddenly for that to be a master plan to heaven. More importantly than that, the problem for anyone who tries this strategy of waiting to the end to accept Jesus in their life has to consider this verse:

~~~~~
1 Samuel 16:7b
"God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
~~~~~

He knows the heart of a person who asks for forgiveness with a lawyer-like heart... just covering all bases before he dies without any sincerity. That fake prayer will be rejected, along with everyone else who pretends to be Christian but never really were (as I pointed out in this thread from Luke 13:27). Only a real heart of humility to submit to God will result in eternal life in heaven.

===

The second half of your example is just flat out not supported by the bible when you think you're defending the "poor tribal children who've never heard the word Christ during their lifetime will suffer for all eternity". There are two primary mistakes you wrote about there. The Lord only expects people to believe in what He has revealed of Himself. Noah, Aaron and Jeremiah from the Old Testament days never heard the name of Jesus, yet no one doubts that they will be in heaven. The same is true for people in distant and remote areas throughout the ages, as I partially explained here:

<arredondo wrote>:
This includes everyone who is maturely capable of making this choice (which excludes the young who die early or the mentally enfeebled who all go to heaven by grace). The only thing the Lord ask is that one responds favorably to what He has revealed of His nature to them.

For those of us who know of what Jesus did by dying for our sins and resurrecting to heaven, we are to respond to that to be saved. If a more vague understanding of their Creator is all one knows, (i.e. an ancient islander who merely believes in the nameless One who created her, created the stars and created the universe around her), that's good enough for a fair God if He is acknowledged in her life:

~~~~~
Romans 1:20
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Psalm 8:3-4
"When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place, what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You care for him? "
~~~~~

I say partially because although I show some verses in the bible that addresses people who have not read it and how their belief in what they know will be enough to get to heaven, I didn't include verses that indicate children who pass away prematurely will be in heaven too. Here is one passage comes to mind.

King David in ancient Israel had a sick child that he prayed over to the point that he even stopped eating and in sadness and humility for a period of time. His servants were Eventually the child died, and David cleaned himself up and ate some food. This is what the scriptures say happened next:

~~~~~
2 Samuel 12:21-23
Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? ]While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
~~~~~

Right there David knows he will see his son in heaven. Children are not righteous or unrighteous because they cannot fully grasp the concept of right (and wrong) like you and me. Instead, they are innocent so the second death (eternal separation from God) does not apply to them.

After the Hebrews' 40 year trek in the wilderness after escaping slavery under Pharaoh in Egypt, their sin of unbelief prevented them from entering the "promised land". Although many of them still went to heaven after they died, they were not allowed to enter the earthly analogy of it except for Joshua and Caleb (whose faith never wavered) as well as all the youth under twenty years of age:

~~~~~
Numbers 32:12-13
'None of the men who came up from Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob; for they did not follow Me fully, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite and Joshua the son of Nun, for they have followed the LORD fully.’ So the LORD’S anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until the entire generation of those who had done evil in the sight of the LORD was destroyed.
~~~~~~

Along with over a dozen specific verses of instructions of responsibility and duty in the Old Testament for people aged twenty years or older, this passage above speak of an age of accountability for your actions. For those who clearly don't have the maturity of an adult, this would mean that you do not have to worry about the eternal fate of tribal "children". God is infinitely more fair and gracious than you or me if you are wondering if any of them will end up in hell (they won't). Just in case you need more biblical proof, listen to what Jesus says about children and their eternal destination:

~~~~~
Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
~~~~~

If you only had the simple faith and love a child often shows towards his daddy, then the child-like faith and love for your Father in heaven would be enough to save you from your terrible choice to remain separate from God forever.

 

[ch33zw1z]

You must have read the post I shared that you are quoting because it seems now you get it.

So here your doubling down on the No True Scotsman assertion?

If you’re not sure, go read about this informal fallacy

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bottom line here is that those other Christian’s will claim you’re not a true Christian as well, and the wheel of religious nonsense goes round and round.

 

[APU_Fusion]

25 pages of no proof and circular logic. Bhagavad Gita is the only truth and Arredondo is a satanist. Stop lying and trying to convert people to the satan that is Jesus Christ. The character Jesus falsely tries to teach salvation comes from without.

Arredondo can quote that same circular bullshit without proof as proof of itself in a turtles all the way down fit of willful ignorance but the fact remains he is a satanist.

May you see the oldest Truth that is revealed by the Bhagavad Gita before it is too late.