Now imagine Frank tortures Tanesha for all eternity for not wanting to be with him. Now imagine people worshipping Frank the torturer.
Seems he doesn't really care about Jesus much anyway, his great hero is Paul.
You did an amazing job of ignoring the other posts in this thread pointing out the inconsistencies in the bible. Care to address them?Consider a 22-year old guy out there named Frank. His heart longs for a relationship with Tanesha and despite being a pretty decent man who would do his best to treat her well she doesn't want anything to do with him. Question: should he force her to accept his offer to be together even though she has repeatedly denied him? Of course not.
You and I and everyone who has or will ever exist were created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26) for an eternal, loving relationship with Him. However, it is not real love unless it is offered freely and not through force (as a slave) or because we were "programmed" to obey (as a puppet, robot, or other A..I. entity). We have free will to accept or reject the One who created us. How else can love be real between both sides?
To answer you more directly, God absolutely could have used his unlimited power to make us do anything. He chooses not to so that you have the choice to freely offer your heart to Him just as He has already done for you. Real love >>>> than forced obedience.
The ironic thing is that accepting the Lord in your life is the most one-sided free will relationship possible. God created you and breathed His life into your lungs so you can even be alive (Genesis 2:7). All of the good and wonderful blessings you've enjoyed up to this point in your life are from Him (despite your rejection) while he also steered you away or protected you from most of the harmful effects of sin. What consequences He allows you to experience is done only for an ultimate greater good in part to encourage you to make the single most important wise choice you can possibly face.
And as for the sins you personally committed anyway, the Law says you are to die, period. Instead, out of love and grace God sent Jesus who willingly allowed Himself to be tormented, tortured, despised and ultimately be killed in your place so that you could live forever. All of that He endured despite your ongoing rebellion against Him:
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Romans 5:8
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
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Who does something like that for anyone? I mean, in English we have basically one word for "love", but in Greek (the original written language of the New Testament in the bible), there are no less than four different words for the various types of love. The lowest form is associated with sex meant for a man and his wife... eros. It is rarely mentioned in the scriptures, but sadly is the most commonly distorted of them all by society. There is a Greek word for family love, and one for brotherly or friendship love as well.
The highest form mentioned in the bible describes the love that Jesus Christ has for you: agape love. How is it any better than all the other versions? It is a love that you not only did nothing to earn, but it is one you don't even deserve.
It's easy to love a spouse, family members or friends. Can you say with an honest heart that on your own you love your enemies? Read Romans 5:8 above once again... could you die for someone that hates you? Jesus did.
You might have read the novel Valkyrie (or seen the Tom Cruise movie filmed from it). It's based on a true story of German officers and soldiers in WWII who plotted to destroy Hitler by planting a bomb underneath a conference table at one of his hidden retreat meetings. As the story goes there was problem with the explosion and Hitler survived. All of the ones found to have been involved were executed.
Be honest - if Hitler directly killed your loved ones and tried to tear apart all that you hold dear, would you have been willing to rush into that conference room if the opportunity allowed, grab the bomb before it went off and jump out of a window with it for the sole purpose of making sure that you died in place of him?
That's what Jesus did for you on the cross!
The list of what God has done for you to earn your thankfulness and praise is too long to list. He longs to pour even more blessings over you for all of eternity. Now, what's your part in the relationship compared to all of that? Just believe! As I said above, it doesn't get more one-sided than that.
As an answer to your final question, yes, I'd say it is only right to not only call Him God, but to glorify Jesus for His agape love that none of us deserve.
And since Frank is omniscient, he already knows what the creation (Tanesha) will choose, and creates anyways, just so he can torture, forever. Then Frank tells Tanesha she had free will, but made the wrong decision, and he knew she would, because he's omniscient....but it's her fault. Hmmm, I wonder where religious people get their proclivity for victim blaming
Frank while torturing Tanesha repeatedly screams "look what you made me do"
Tough guy, huh! Did ytou also slaughter your whole family when you found out the Easter Bunny isn't real. You need to dress up in knights armor and go out and joust with the headless horseman or maybe just bang your head on the wall.If god doesnt want me to fuck a tranny out of wedlock I will fuck a tranny out of wedlock.
and then send photos to pope francis.
fuck 'em.
What I am imagining is you torturing yourself over a dogma perfectly suited to some people and not right for you. Better for you might be the realization that willful separation from whatever it really is for which you are using the word God, is also a state for which the word hell applies. Bridged are tools that require faith, each for a time a place and a people. Each bridge is vital for people of faith. No religious bridge will likely work for you. You will use logic to pick them apart rather that you heart to trust. But with or without a bridge people still arrive at the same destination. One can sleep in a church, on a bus or in a bed but being awake is being awake and the awake know, really know, who is sleeping.Now imagine Frank tortures Tanesha for all eternity for not wanting to be with him. Now imagine people worshipping Frank the torturer.
Expending resources on a bridge when there is no river to cross is a fool’s errand. We know the toll collector insists that the river is there and that the toll is reasonable but still shows us nothing but the shiny tollbooth.What I am imagining is you torturing yourself over a dogma perfectly suited to some people and not right for you. Better for you might be the realization that willful separation from whatever it really is for which you are using the word God, is also a state for which the word hell applies. Bridged are tools that require faith, each for a time a place and a people. Each bridge is vital for people of faith. No religious bridge will likely work for you. You will use logic to pick them apart rather that you heart to trust. But with or without a bridge people still arrive at the same destination. One can sleep in a church, on a bus or in a bed but being awake is being awake and the awake know, really know, who is sleeping.
What sort of fool is it, then, that says to himself I am from Kansas and before I declare this isn't Kansas I need to be in a place that isn't Kansas but before I ever leave?Expending resources on a bridge when there is no river to cross is a fool’s errand. We know the toll collector insists that the river is there and that the toll is reasonable but still shows us nothing but the shiny tollbooth.
Would you believe in Paris if none who set off for Paris ever came back to tell the tale? Would you believe in Paris if those who say there is a Paris also say that you must die (really die, like dead dead) to see it yet aren't too keen on going first? Would you believe in Paris if those who say there is a Paris also told you that you must hate yourself utterly in order to perceive Paris?What sort of fool is it, then, that says to himself I am from Kansas and before I declare this isn't Kansas I need to be in a place that isn't Kansas but before I ever leave?
Such a fool, I suppose would have to be somebody like you, a person of faith that the in one way or another the entirety of human existence is like growing up on a farm.
So what of those who have seen Paris? I know that it was famine and word of a better life elsewhere that drove my grandparents and beyond to come to the New World, as it was called. Bridges like ships are only for the curious seeker or people with deep needs. No fresh tea can be poured into a full cup. You to your tractor and me to my fairy land.
If you seek safety it is on the shore, but in the sea one can find treasures beyond imagination. A Sufi saying.
Hehe, here I am talking to someone named IronWing about the difficulty he might be having getting off the ground. Try catching hold of a moonbeam.
Again, nonsensical preacher babble is all you offer. You'll have to start with the basic building blocks of your belief system and provide evidence for each and every block. You want to start on what you perceive is the top of a pyramid of beliefs without offering evidence for the underlying pyramid. Jesus doesn't come on the scene until we get near the closing credits.
As I was trying to express in my most recent response above, I don't expect to persuade anyone. In fact, that's literally impossible according to the bible. Who am I that people will literally seek out and enter into a permanent relationship with their Creator based on anything I have to say? Sure, some people may go around with that false, arrogant attitude in the name of Christianity, but I'm not one of them.<Part I of III>
Here's why you're not going to persuade anyone: you're acting as if every human on Earth accepts your view of the Universe as true, and just chooses to reject it.
Again, as I pointed out, it is not up to you or I to determine how God communicates to us.<Part II of III>
But that's not how it works in reality. When you're non-religious, you operate entirely outside of the religious mindset. You operate on tangible evidence, logic and reason. There is no such thing as unquestioning faith; you are allowed to change your mind as new evidence comes to light, or to say "we don't know."
<Part IIII of III>
Suggesting we'll live in eternal damnation doesn't do a thing for us as there's no real evidence to suggest Hell (or anything supernatural, for that matter) exists. It's like threatening to tickle someone; it will do nothing at best, and annoy your target at worst.
Nice try sparky, now start at the bottom of the pyramid of your beliefs.If my goal was to convince you of my belief, then based on what God had written in His word, I would be doing it wrong. Instead, I'm was merely pointing out to you what He says about how He chooses to become real to everyone of us without exception. I mean, since I didn't come up with this life we live in, it is for me to dictate how He should communicate to you. You will either accept His explanation (which I copied from the bible in my link to you) or you won't.
For example your last sentence contradicts what it says about Jesus. What would be the point of trying to debate it based on my opinion? Instead, I choose to let the Lord speak for Himself. Here it clearly says the opposite of "Jesus doesn't come on the scene until we get near the closing credits":
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John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God."
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It's common knowledge that this entire first chapter of John is all about Jesus, so if the Lord is telling us that Jesus not only existed "before the closing credits", and not only before He was born in a manger two thousand years ago, but He goes all the way back before anything, then it is what it is regardless of your or even my opinion.
As I was trying to express in my most recent response above, I don't expect to persuade anyone. In fact, that's literally impossible according to the bible. Who am I that people will literally seek out and enter into a permanent relationship with their Creator based on anything I have to say? Sure, some people may go around with that false, arrogant attitude in the name of Christianity, but I'm not one of them.
Instead, my efforts here are towards doing something infinitely easier than that... follow this commandment of Jesus:
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Mark 16:15
"And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."
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That's literally it. Am I trying to save sinners? No, because as I said that's impossible even if I tried. Instead, I try to let God speak for Himself through me. That's why the heart of pretty much every post of mine in this thread are the verses lifted directly from His word. To be more specific, the Holy Spirit (part of the God triune) does 99.9999999% of the work. The .00000001 of the work I do (writing forum responses in this case) is still worthless and possibly counter-productive if it solely comes from me:
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Mark 13:11
"...do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you at that time; for you are not the ones speaking, but it is the Holy Spirit."
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Whether you agree with anything the bible says or not, hopefully you at least understand why I say the premise of what you wrote is not in sync with how God approaches unbelievers. So if it is Him trying to tug at your soul for a relationship, He will do so in His own way. I mapped out some of that in my first post of this thread.
Again, as I pointed out, it is not up to you or I to determine how God communicates to us.
For instance, your stated rule set for proving "reality" has significant limitations that even you have to acknowledge if God of the bible is real. Surely you have some general concept of places the bible describes as heaven and hell, and if their spiritual existence is true, how can your rule set possibly prove anything about them using tangible tools and analysis? I'm not saying you believe any of it, but you have to see how impossible that effort is.
As I said in a similar analogy in another post, it's easier to explain to a grub worm at the bottom of the deepest ocean all the complexities of a modern space station than it is for you to use a essentially physical approach to decipher a spiritual reality. I pointed to one example from the bible that shows how God explains this position when heaven is described for people of faith in God who will be there:
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1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
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So literally no one has seen, heard, or even imagined anything whatsoever about what heaven is like. Our limited tool set in our universe (and the senses we have as people) is faaaaaar too limited. No matter how advanced tech gets, why do you assume it can eventually interact with a spiritual reality when God literally says right here that it will never happen? He made all things, so he controls what we can and cannot interact with on HIS terms, not ours:
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Colossians 1:16
"For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through Him and for Him."
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Here's the thing. In spite of what I wrote above, God still goes out of His way to make Himself real to you. Not on your terms, but on His terms. Every single person that will enjoy heaven forever chose not to ignore what He reveals of His caring nature to them. By faith (and faith alone) they believe in Him, which establishes an eternal relationship with the Lord as described in bible:
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Hebrews 11:6
"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him."
Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God."
Romans 10:17
"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
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God comes after you out of love. He wants to be in your life as well as save you from hell. In various ways He pours out his heart to you through His word (the bible). It is evident in print, in sermons, in His people's verbal and living testimonies, in the splendor of the universe He made, etc. Sure, they all have a different, personal stories of how they got saved, but the story is always rooted in the truth of His word with no exception, and it is always activated by one's faith in Him.
It's sad that people feel they need a higher power to help them not be evil.The point of Christianity, in my opinion, is help people to become Christians. My idea of a Christian from what I know about Christianity can be found in The Lord's Prayer:
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
When I read that I get the impression I would like a person who sets before him or her such an aim. I really don't need to judge what brought them to have such an aim. I would say too that anybody truly dedicated to such a prayer would be a much better person than me.
I would also say to have such an aim one would not specifically need to be a Christian.
Even sadder that people than use that belief to do/justify some of the most evil shit imaginable.It's sad that people feel they need a higher power to help them not be evil.
But it is more than a matter of need. Implicit in your statement is that one can achieve the same thing without reference to a higher power. But that same thing is a higher aim, one you seem to imply is possible. You certainly came to believe such a thing possible because something within you says it is. You may have picked up such a feeling from someone else's belief in a higher power, no? What is the problem with projecting it out there as a higher power if the effect is the same.It's sad that people feel they need a higher power to help them not be evil.
It isn't actually a higher aim. It just feels good to be good. Took me a long time to figure it out. Being bad often feels really good in the moment, but then there is a lifetime of regret that follows. Doing good, defined here as doing something selfless for someone else, produces a memory that you can feel good about for the rest of your life. No higher power required, and everybody wins.But it is more than a matter of need. Implicit in your statement is that one can achieve the same thing without reference to a higher power. But that same thing is a higher aim, one you seem to imply is possible. You certainly came to believe such a thing possible because something within you says it is. You may have picked up such a feeling from someone else's belief in a higher power, no? What is the problem with projecting it out there as a higher power if the effect is the same.
The danger is also pretty much the same. One can believe that one's ego aim or one's idea of God justifies violence as a form of support and thus creating hell on earth.
The psychologist who was my teacher recommended digging the tunnel from two ends, doing something in life that is positive, real proof one can't actually be the worst person in the world, and rooting up to conscious memory negative feelings. The former is just living up to a higher ideal. The way of the Monk, the as opposed to the yogi who stops thought or the fakir who masters the body, consists of loving an external so much that the self is lost in that love, the lover and the beloved becoming one. There are many ways because there are many different kinds of people
I'm never happy when we talk about symptoms. I want to know why why why. I guess somehow you are sui generous and reflect nothing of the laws of nature. I kind of thought that several hundred million years of mammalian evolution in parental care on top of your reptile brain and several million years of frontal lobe evolution additionally might have built in that empathy you find so satisfying in a way that makes you feel pleasure to expressing it to your fellow human beings more generally. Religion just affirms we we create god and hopefully the world in our deepest self image or visa versa since it isn't possible to say for sure.It isn't actually a higher aim. It just feels good to be good. Took me a long time to figure it out. Being bad often feels really good in the moment, but then there is a lifetime of regret that follows. Doing good, defined here as doing something selfless for someone else, produces a memory that you can feel good about for the rest of your life. No higher power required, and everybody wins.
Christianity, and every other religion, is all about the same thing.The point of Christianity, in my opinion, is help people to become Christians. My idea of a Christian from what I know about Christianity can be found in The Lord's Prayer: