Is god pissed?

[cytg111]

This is the repertoire of a prisoner who can't see his prison, the shadows that flicker on the wall of Plato's cave. And when told there is a world outside that casts shadows they think are reality, they aren't interested. As I said, you seem not to have a seeker's need. That need can't come from me. I have tried to offer you some words to suggest there is more in heaven and earth than your philosophy encompasses, but more I cannot do, but I am happy to try.

As to your comments you start with how arrogant I must be to value my opinion in a sea of other opinions all of a different nature and end up telling me what Jesus probably really felt. You tell me there is a million views of a glass of wine and I agree, but also it is a glass from which I have drunk. I have the object of taste and the tongue that can taste it and the experience of bringing the object to the taste buds but I can never with words cause you to taste the wine. The only way a single person can know the effects of wine on the tongue and later the experience of intoxication is for that single person to drink it. Nobody can drink it for you or prove it has an effect.

When you tell a person who has experienced a God-Conscious state that no such state exists all you are saying is that no such state has been experienced by you. You fail to realize yourself as an observer, an observer amongst another billion or so observers that has observed this Jesus narrative and come up with something that resonates within the walls of your own skull. Isn't it pretty arrogant on your part to just flat out assume you're the one that got it right? I could argue that the premise for the experiment is in err, how can you hope to conjure anything meaningful to the nature of the universe, the human condition if the seed is a fairy tale? Its bonkers. It is a fool who pretends to be a cognoscente who has not tasted.

The fine difference between you and me is that I do not roam the surface and preach my belief, though I do express it in response to you.
I too recognize that what you do, preach/missioning, is coming from a place that wants to do good. I get that. But you're being pushy. Your truth may not be some one else's truth, and you absolutely refuse to accept that possibility.

Do you have time to talk about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
No thank you.

Do you have time to talk about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
Nah Im gut brah

Do you have time to talk about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
Dude.

Do you have time to talk about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
*stare*

Do you have time to talk about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
GET THE FUCK OF MY LAWN YO.

I dont want to do spoilers, but dude, your ego aint dead.

 

[Moonbeam]

The fine difference between you and me is that I do not roam the surface and preach my belief, though I do express it in response to you.
I too recognize that what you do, preach/missioning, is coming from a place that wants to do good. I get that. But you're being pushy. Your truth may not be some one else's truth, and you absolutely refuse to accept that possibility.

Do you have time to talk about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
No thank you.

Do you have time to talk about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
Nah Im gut brah

Do you have time to talk about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
Dude.

Do you have time to talk about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
*stare*

Do you have time to talk about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
GET THE FUCK OF MY LAWN YO.

I dont want to do spoilers, but dude, your ego aint dead.

It always comes down to that in the end it seems. The ego is there to keep you far from your pain and in order to do its job it has to shit on anything that suggests it can be lost. So I have to have as much or a bigger ego than you. I can have the biggest ego on Earth and it wouldn't change a word of the truth. A cup full of self can't hold a drop of the truth.

Do you have time to talk about how much larger my ego is than yours?
Of course I do.

Do you have time to talk about how much larger my ego is than yours?
Yes, of course why not.

Do you have time to talk about how much larger my ego is than yours?
Dude. All the time in the world.

Do you have time to talk about how much larger my ego is than yours?
Look!

Do you have time to talk about how much larger my ego is than yours?
You are most welcome in my house. And why not. My ego is so large it fills the universe. You can find a green pepper there.

Enjoy: https://lyricstranslate.com/en/kingston-trio-coplas-lyrics.html

 

[cytg111]

It always comes down to that in the end it seems. The ego is there to keep you far from your pain and in order to do its job it has to shit on anything that suggests it can be lost. So I have to have as much or a bigger ego than you. I can have the biggest ego on Earth and it wouldn't change a word of the truth. A cup full of self can't hold a drop of the truth.

Do you have time to talk about how much larger my ego is than yours?
Of course I do.

Do you have time to talk about how much larger my ego is than yours?
Yes, of course why not.

Do you have time to talk about how much larger my ego is than yours?
Dude. All the time in the world.

Do you have time to talk about how much larger my ego is than yours?
Look!

Do you have time to talk about how much larger my ego is than yours?
You are most welcome in my house. And why not. My ego is so large it fills the universe. You can find a green pepper there.

Enjoy: https://lyricstranslate.com/en/kingston-trio-coplas-lyrics.html

:: first sign of denial is denial.
You got the tautology down alright.
Meh. Your constant insistence that i am somehow lost makes me conclude that you is the one that is at sea my friend. I hope you find kind winds wherever you are going.

 

[Mai72]

You don't have to try to convince me of your complete rejection of God. As I said above, ultimately that foolish approach is between you and the Holy Spirit who will continue to try to persuade you to change your heart until your dying day (well, until the first death at least). It's not even me that calls your write-up foolishness... the Lord says that about you personally:

~~~~~
Psalm 53:1
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; There is none who does good.
~~~~~

To be honest, while you struggle in your heart about your Creator, I doubt you even believe all that you posted. These are your words: "Jesus never spoke about hell." Seriously?

The single most famous verse in the entire bible, John 3:16, explains that out of love for everyone in the world, God sent Jesus to die for your sins so that you won't spend eternity in hell because of the wickedness of the life you've led... and that's just one of many, many quotes from Jesus that references eternal separation from God (which is the ultimate definition of hell):

~~~~~
Matthew 5:22
"But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire."

Matthew 7:13
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it."

Matthew 7:19
"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Matthew 10:28
“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew13:40
"Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age."

Matthew 13:42
"...and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 16:18
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Matthew 22:13
"Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."

Matthew 23:33
"Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"

Matthew 25:30
"...and cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels'"

Mark 9:43
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."

Mark 9:45
"And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."

Mark 9:47
"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire."

Luke 10:15
"And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to hell."

Luke 12:5
"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Mark 9:47-48
"...to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Mark 12:40
"...who devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation."

Luke 13:3
"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

John 5:29
"...and come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

John 15:6
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
~~~~~

That addresses just one false claim you posted. The words of Jesus refutes it, and I didn't even include every single reference!

You don't have to try to boldly declare your resistance to God, if that's your goal. Due to free will that He has given all of us, if you don't want a relationship with Him, your decision will be honored and you will be separated from God forever. Do know that you invite His wrath to engulf you if this is your chosen path in life:

~~~~~
Romans 1:18-32
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Claiming to be wise, they became fools."
~~~~~

You are engaged in a fallacy and its not my fault that you do a bad job in regard to representing your religion. You might want to take a debate class my friend. The bible is the claim. Its not the proof. Its why you need to go outside the bible for your claims. Can you do that? I seriously doubt it. But anyway, I have Muslim friends who would tell you that the bible has been corrupted, and that YOU are rejecting ALLAH (God) and YOU will be judged because YOU didn't follow scripture in the Quarn. There is only one God, and that is Allah. Jesus message was corrupted and there is only ONE God. Not Jesus. This is what a Muslim would say, and so YOU are doomed for hell. I can play the same game as you, and we get nowhere.

Matthew 19:17- 21 The young man asked Jesus what good thing I must do to obtain eternal life. Jesus replied "If you want to enter life keep the commandments." The young man replied "Which ones" Jesus replied "do not steal, do not murdeer, and do not commit adultery." The young man said "All of these I have kept. What else do I lack." Jesus told him“If you want to be perfect, go, SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS AND GIVE TO THE POOR, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”…

Funny how Christians like yourself forget to include this passage. You like to cherry pick parts in the bible. But the truth is how many of the sick have you helped? Have you given away many of your possessions to the poor? My guess is NOPE. This passage is coming from the horses mouth. Jesus is saying what you must do, and yet you ignore what he is telling this young man. If there was a Jesus he had a ministry. He took care of the sick, the poor, the old and the helpless. What have you done lately my friend. My guess NOT MUCH. And yet you think you deserve to be allowed into heaven? Yea, right. The one thing Jesus wasn't doing was telling people they are doomed for hell. He was Jewish. Jews have a totally differnt view on the afterlife. You need to get your bible game up my friend. its very very weak.

BTW, eternal seperation of God means ANNHILATION. That you will be annhilated from god. Not hell. Again, Jesus was JEWISH! Jews have a very different view on the afterlife. I've talked to many Jewish rabbis and they have all confirmed that exact same thought. JESUS NEVER SPOKE OF HELL. Not in the Christian sense. You should be less ignorant my friend. Bart Erhman goes over this in his book "Heaven and Hell." He talks about how the idea of hell was formed. Not like how you think, You are heavily indoctrinated.

Here let me enlighten you:

Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says

Bart Ehrman says the ideas of eternal rewards and punishments aren't found in the Old Testament or in the teachings of Jesus. His new book is Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife.

www.npr.org

"EHRMAN: (Laughter) I know, exactly. This is the big surprise of the book, and it's the one thing people probably wouldn't expect because, you know, when I was growing up, I just assumed. This is the view of Christianity. So this must be what Jesus taught. This is what the Old Testament taught. And in fact, it's not right. Our view that you die and your soul goes to heaven or hell is not found anywhere in the Old Testament, and it's not what Jesus preached. I have to show that in my book, and I lay it out and explain why it's absolutely not the case that Jesus believed you died and your soul went to heaven or hell. Jesus had a completely different understanding that people today don't have."

Op-Ed: How Christians came to believe in heaven, hell and the immortal soul

Christians believe that when a person dies, their soul goes eternally to heaven or hell. How did they come to believe that?

www.latimes.com

"By the end of the 1st century, most Christian converts came from pagan rather than Jewish stock. As inhabitants of the Greco-Roman world, they brought with them their own “Greek” ways of thinking about bodies and souls, not the Jewish views of Jesus and his followers. This new generation of non-Jewish Christians continued to believe that justice would be done after death. But it would not be a bodily kingdom on Earth; it would be a spiritual kingdom in heaven above. For them, eternal life comes to souls after death, without the body. The souls of those who are not saved will also live on, in the torments of hell. This view (which first appears in two of the late writings of the New Testament, Luke and John) rapidly became the standard belief throughout all Christendom.

Jesus himself did not share these beliefs. But within a century, the vast majority of Christians believed that a soul would be judged after the body had died. Those who believed in Jesus would have eternal life, not in a bodily kingdom on Earth but in the spiritual realm above. This remains the belief of billions of people today."

 

[Moonbeam]

:: first sign of denial is denial.
You got the tautology down alright.
Meh. Your constant insistence that i am somehow lost makes me conclude that you is the one that is at sea my friend. I hope you find kind winds wherever you are going.

I was just confronted by a group of boys with the same charge. I overheard them talking about how the idea they had heard from older boys, that sex was tremendous because of fairy tail altered psychological state called 'orgasm' was just a mind game to trick them into liking icky things called girls, and when I suggested they were wrong about that they also told me about how I was just in denial and had no idea what I was talking about. They said I liked to make up stories that put a spotlight on me about how I knew of a phony pleasure palace that couldn't possibly exist. They called me all sorts of bad names because I was out to trick them into believing bullshit that would lead them on a path to hell, one just putrefactive with the kissing of girls. I was going to go on about it but I knew it would be the first sign of denial. Kids today are so smart you can't get them drunk on the smell of someone else's wine bottle cork. Pity too. If only my wine cellar, full alas, could store the one they refused, as if the spirit were not infinite in supply.

Now supposed you are 'lost'. What does that mean. Suppose it is your ego speaking. Now if you have a real self that isn't your ego, that your ego is a delusional self that is there to protect you from feelings of worthlessness you acquired as a result of being put down as a child, then if that ego were to be seriously questioned by memories of how that all actually happened and what a big lie it was you were forced to eat, what might happen. You would feel and know what means to be traumatized. And you could, knowing what happened, begin to heal. All I am saying is that you are lost, that what you lost was your healthy self happy self and that beyond the pain that is not any longer what you lost but what you can gain. I believe nobody wants to feel their loss to regain it. What I have done, what i want to do is inform you of the fact of what I believe is your condition. The rest is up to you. I only know how to say what I see and feel. You can call it whatever you like, call it whatever you wish. I was put down just as you were. I just couldn't hide the pain from myself. Enough of me died in me in my endless failure to be free that I broke through some kind of barrier. Deep in the battle to survive I went somewhere else, one moment in a hell with no exit, the next in the same place absent of any question. I don't know anything, I just know that nobody knows anything and there isn't any need to know because there are no questions. There is only being. As long as you live that will be your real state. To think is to evoke the past and the future, one of which already happened and the other forever on its way. One can't be in either. They are the product of thought.

 

[Commodus]

These people are logic and evidence proof. Religion creates in impermeable protective layer against them. Remember, religion is always saying "don't question" to the point of calling it a sin.

Actually talk to, or read how former believers became atheist/agnostic, it is almost exclusively because they began to question (often due to the abuse suffered in the name of religion) the bull shit that has been blown up their ass, often starting while a diaper was still covering their ass.

You are right, nothing I say will change their views, but they are such an extreme danger to society that I cannot and will not remain silent. Do you not see the connection between these views, and the current Trump manics?

Oh, I'm aware! That's part of why I said not to flatter. But with diehard evangelists like arredondo, harsh attacks are only going to drive them further away. I think it's important to be firm, but also to help them understand what it's like on the 'outside.' The very issue with deprogramming the religious is adjusting their broader mindset, not picking apart individual aspects (though I've done that as well).

 

[Commodus]

But but but it is not a fact that religion is profoundly dangerous, or at least what people call religion is. Doesn't that call for being upset?

Edit: This was written and interrupted in posting before MtnMan posted the one above me that makes a similar point.

Religion can be dangerous. It's most harmful when it encourages people to be cruel, or to tolerate injustices in expectation of a reward in the afterlife. I'd also say it hurts when it seriously discourages critical thinking, though that can vary widely based on the person and the religion in question.

You can be upset at how religion hurts people, but you don't necessarily have to translate that into your rhetoric.

 

[Moonbeam]

Religion can be dangerous. It's most harmful when it encourages people to be cruel, or to tolerate injustices in expectation of a reward in the afterlife. I'd also say it hurts when it seriously discourages critical thinking, though that can vary widely based on the person and the religion in question.

You can be upset at how religion hurts people, but you don't necessarily have to translate that into your rhetoric.

How I view that personally is that there are different depth to which a person may be transformed or how fully a person can awaken when having a transcendental experience. For me, the experience was brief. I had an insight that ended my painful existential suffering. For others, I believe, the transformation grants a far more permanent awakening. I think that in India they are referred to as masts or avatars and in our traditions saints and prophets. Such people may be products of various schools of thought and religious traditions.

I went to church a bit as a child learning a lot about guilt for my personal selfishness and admiration for the selflessness of Jesus but later abandoned religious faith. It was from reading in the Zen traditions that concepts unknown to me previously created new perspectives fundamental to my personal experience.

The point I am having trouble getting to it seems, is that while there is material of value in religious traditions, it begins to degrade in the hands of followers who are not transformed. It becomes what I call mechanical. The light in it dims with the death of the teacher at least in what we see in public traditions. In this way instead of the crossing to a higher understanding that was originally present in the teacher, the methodology in the hands of the blind becomes corrupted. But among all the dross there are,for the deeply sincere, nuggets of gold.

Too much focus on the dirt in the bath water and the baby gets tossed. This a common problem for those infected by the disease of certainty. No filling a full cup. That’s a concept I learned from Zen.

 

[Commodus]

The point I am having trouble getting to it seems, is that while there is material of value in religious traditions, it begins to degrade in the hands of followers who are not transformed. It becomes what I call mechanical. The light in it dims with the death of the teacher at least in what we see in public traditions. In this way instead of the crossing to a higher understanding that was originally present in the teacher, the methodology in the hands of the blind becomes corrupted. But among all the dross there are,for the deeply sincere, nuggets of gold.

Too much focus on the dirt in the bath water and the baby gets tossed. This a common problem for those infected by the disease of certainty. No filling a full cup. That’s a concept I learned from Zen.

There is value and there isn't. At their heart, religions largely exist to do two things: codify a society's moral framework, and explain things people didn't (or more lately, don't want to) understand. While that has led to some genuinely compassionate people and helped people deal with issues like grief or a sense of purpose, it's also based on false pretenses and has done its fair share of damage.

As we've seen all too clearly, that moral framework is the product of the secular community's views at the time (not necessarily the majority), and those views frequently have elements that are outdated or are purposefully spun and cherry-picked by devotees to suit their personal views. LGBT sexuality, abortion, slaves... heck, try telling a woman everyone should avoid her for a week because she's on her period. Morality needs to adapt as we learn more, and religion doesn't really allow that.

And of course, religion often gives people answers that are either incorrect or are attempts to fill voids where people either don't know the answers or don't like them. We as a species have trouble admitting that there's no evidence of life after death, that our real origins aren't glamorous, that we aren't the center of the universe or part of a greater plan. And that creates serious problems, as it leads people to both avoid pursuing the truth and do horrible things. How many people have been cruel to neighbors, or suffered unnecessary hardships, because they thought they'd be rewarded in the afterlife? Like I said earlier, life would arguably be better if people were content to deal with reality and accept "we don't know" as an answer.

 

[Moonbeam]

There is value and there isn't. At their heart, religions largely exist to do two things: codify a society's moral framework, and explain things people didn't (or more lately, don't want to) understand. While that has led to some genuinely compassionate people and helped people deal with issues like grief or a sense of purpose, it's also based on false pretenses and has done its fair share of damage.

As we've seen all too clearly, that moral framework is the product of the secular community's views at the time (not necessarily the majority), and those views frequently have elements that are outdated or are purposefully spun and cherry-picked by devotees to suit their personal views. LGBT sexuality, abortion, slaves... heck, try telling a woman everyone should avoid her for a week because she's on her period. Morality needs to adapt as we learn more, and religion doesn't really allow that.

And of course, religion often gives people answers that are either incorrect or are attempts to fill voids where people either don't know the answers or don't like them. We as a species have trouble admitting that there's no evidence of life after death, that our real origins aren't glamorous, that we aren't the center of the universe or part of a greater plan. And that creates serious problems, as it leads people to both avoid pursuing the truth and do horrible things. How many people have been cruel to neighbors, or suffered unnecessary hardships, because they thought they'd be rewarded in the afterlife? Like I said earlier, life would arguably be better if people were content to deal with reality and accept "we don't know" as an answer.

I agree but the real aim of religion, in my opinion, what it was intended for, isn't to answer questions but to end them with the flowering of love. When the Beloved is God the lover is too. Nothing else can enter consciousness. The integration of self ends duality. The object of consciousness is consciousness. The ouroboros if you will.

 

[MtnMan]

Oh, I'm aware! That's part of why I said not to flatter. But with diehard evangelists like arredondo, harsh attacks are only going to drive them further away. I think it's important to be firm, but also to help them understand what it's like on the 'outside.' The very issue with deprogramming the religious is adjusting their broader mindset, not picking apart individual aspects (though I've done that as well).

Driving them further away is a good thing. These people are cult members, and as such dangerous to society. Extreme views require extreme responses... like "get the fuck out of my face"
They will never understand how extreme they are, as they are programmed to view anyone that doesn't align to their views as Satanist, or possessed, or something.
Evangelicals and Trumpicals... just fuck them, and get the fuck off my lawn. Being nice or patient or understanding is futile.

 

[MtnMan]

Religion can be dangerous. It's most harmful when it encourages people to be cruel, or to tolerate injustices in expectation of a reward in the afterlife. I'd also say it hurts when it seriously discourages critical thinking, though that can vary widely based on the person and the religion in question.

You can be upset at how religion hurts people, but you don't necessarily have to translate that into your rhetoric.

Religion IS dangerous.

The only difference between them is how dangerous. Making life decisions for yourself, others (directly or through laws), and especially your children based on a fucking fairy tale is fucking dangerous.

Example: All the fucking wars and genocide in the world today are rooted in religious hatred.

 

[cytg111]

I was just confronted by a group of boys with the same charge. I overheard them talking about how the idea they had heard from older boys, that sex was tremendous because of fairy tail altered psychological state called 'orgasm' was just a mind game to trick them into liking icky things called girls, and when I suggested they were wrong about that they also told me about how I was just in denial and had no idea what I was talking about. They said I liked to make up stories that put a spotlight on me about how I knew of a phony pleasure palace that couldn't possibly exist. They called me all sorts of bad names because I was out to trick them into believing bullshit that would lead them on a path to hell, one just putrefactive with the kissing of girls. I was going to go on about it but I knew it would be the first sign of denial. Kids today are so smart you can't get them drunk on the smell of someone else's wine bottle cork. Pity too. If only my wine cellar, full alas, could store the one they refused, as if the spirit were not infinite in supply.

Now supposed you are 'lost'. What does that mean. Suppose it is your ego speaking. Now if you have a real self that isn't your ego, that your ego is a delusional self that is there to protect you from feelings of worthlessness you acquired as a result of being put down as a child, then if that ego were to be seriously questioned by memories of how that all actually happened and what a big lie it was you were forced to eat, what might happen. You would feel and know what means to be traumatized. And you could, knowing what happened, begin to heal. All I am saying is that you are lost, that what you lost was your healthy self happy self and that beyond the pain that is not any longer what you lost but what you can gain. I believe nobody wants to feel their loss to regain it. What I have done, what i want to do is inform you of the fact of what I believe is your condition. The rest is up to you. I only know how to say what I see and feel. You can call it whatever you like, call it whatever you wish. I was put down just as you were. I just couldn't hide the pain from myself. Enough of me died in me in my endless failure to be free that I broke through some kind of barrier. Deep in the battle to survive I went somewhere else, one moment in a hell with no exit, the next in the same place absent of any question. I don't know anything, I just know that nobody knows anything and there isn't any need to know because there are no questions. There is only being. As long as you live that will be your real state. To think is to evoke the past and the future, one of which already happened and the other forever on its way. One can't be in either. They are the product of thought.

Shit. You dont know me? Lost? Maybe, but you certainly wouldnt know... But then again, you believe *EVERYONE* here is lost.. and for some god forsaken reason you are here to save us all.... From our selves... This is beginning to get a savior/karen vibe.

 

[Moonbeam]

Shit. You dont know me? Lost? Maybe, but you certainly wouldnt know... But then again, you believe *EVERYONE* here is lost.. and for some god forsaken reason you are here to save us all.... From our selves... This is beginning to get a savior/karen vibe.

Just showing you what I have seen to be true of myself. We are all the same. Some know that. Some don’t.

 

[Commodus]

Driving them further away is a good thing. These people are cult members, and as such dangerous to society. Extreme views require extreme responses... like "get the fuck out of my face"
They will never understand how extreme they are, as they are programmed to view anyone that doesn't align to their views as Satanist, or possessed, or something.
Evangelicals and Trumpicals... just fuck them, and get the fuck off my lawn. Being nice or patient or understanding is futile.

I just have to disagree. Part of why the American right is so desperate for theocracy is that its leaders have convinced the strongly religious that secularism is this horrible foe that must be defeated at all costs (see: "war on Christmas" rhetoric). Attacking them viciously just reinforces that point, and with current demographics you won't destroy them; not when they have an increasingly rigged political system in their favor, at least.

Besides, from an ethical point of view I see it this way: lead by example. You want to prove that you're more rational and compassionate? Then act that way. That doesn't mean rolling over, but it does mean proving that you're not the demon they're worried you are. Think of it like you would the reason you (presumably) oppose the Bush Jr. administration's uses of torture and indefinite detention while it claimed to be liberating Iraq — you can't claim the moral high ground while you're behaving almost as badly as the people you criticize.

 

[MichaelMay]

The strange idea you're presenting is that Paul and Jesus of the bible have different messages for different people. Nothing could be further from the truth. The entire bible, from the first book of Genesis to the final book of Revelation, represented by Jesus Himself:

~~~~~
John 1:1-5
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it."
~~~~~

The rest of that chapter goes on to identify Him as Jesus, so we know it is describing Him specifically. So then, if Jesus is represented by the bible in its entirety, then what role does Paul (or any of the other writers of the scriptures) have to do with it? They were chosen to write down what the Holy Spirit led them to write:

~~~~~
2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
~~~~~

Paul had a lot of other letters and writings that were not made a part of the bible. Is it because they were wicked or false or anything like that? No. It is because God decided what writings would be used to represent the word of God... which, as explained above, represents Jesus Christ. Any Paul-only writings are not included at all.

So why in the world would anyone try to separate Paul and Jesus in a way to suggest that the bible has them competing against one another? I mean, Paul goes out of his way to emphasize how much authority he gives to Jesus over his life. Here's one of MANY examples where he writes to a Christian church in Rome expressing his desire to visit them:

~~~~~
Romans 1:9-10
For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you, always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you."
~~~~~

Paul explicitly expressed in those verses his primary act of service for God: preaching the good news (gospel) of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Even what could've been a simple side statement about wanting to meet with his Christian friends in Rome, he goes out of his way to give full reverence to the Lord while doing so.

So if Paul is declaring that his life is all about serving Jesus and spreading His gospel, the suggested conflict between the two has to be found in a false interpretation of the bible. All of the books written by Paul (almost half of the new testament) are in complete harmony with the rest of the bible, which again represents in its entirety Jesus Christ (stated in John 1:1 above), while providing further explanation for us all as to what God's plan is for our lives. Ultimately, the bible is just one book with one author.

So what false interpretation are you suggesting pits Paul against his stated Lord and Master?

I didn't read that but I can respond to it.

Pauline Christianity is basically just the desecration of Jesus Christ and his proclamations. It's the return to hatred and creating enemies of the church which was very important to Paul, as evident by his cult creation.

Jesus would have despised him greatly and he would have despised YOU greatly.

Of course, none of that matters because this is all made up bullshit to create a church in full power over Kings and Emperors.

 

[MichaelMay]

Just showing you what I have seen to be true of myself. We are all the same. Some know that. Some don’t.

I think the idea of same but different applies here. We are the same, but we are different.

I think the basis of psychology and some... less distinguished ideals of charlatans are based on the idea that we are all basically the same, which is not true in the least.

For example, your ideas sometimes resonate with me and sometimes they do not, when they do not it's at the most basal level. I'd say that is because we are different at the basal level but not so much on the superficial level.

 

[hal2kilo]

All of your many rambling posts suggest you're a complete imbecile.

Not for your religious beliefs or seeming fanaticism...

No, it is for your constant self-contradiction and circular reasoning. You have no basis in reality when you believe that the bible was actually proof-read, edited and approved by "God".

Seen more than enough of your type to know that you will not come to your senses. You're nothing but a bible-thumper pretending to be worldly and open-minded, when it's actually all just bullshit.

So that's how some of the books found in the dead sea scrolls didn't make into the Bible. I always thought it was the Catholic church.

 

[Moonbeam]

I think the idea of same but different applies here. We are the same, but we are different.

I think the basis of psychology and some... less distinguished ideals of charlatans are based on the idea that we are all basically the same, which is not true in the least.

For example, your ideas sometimes resonate with me and sometimes they do not, when they do not it's at the most basal level. I'd say that is because we are different at the basal level but not so much on the superficial level.

As is always the problem with words, what one means to you may not be what it means to me. This can lead to the same ability to differ on two sides. I do not know what you mean by basal or superficial when it comes to differences between us. In my estimation at a basal level we are lizards. In that we would be the same. At a superficial level you may like blue and I like green. Perhaps we can use the analogy of the Tabula Rasa, that we are all born the same. As my father used to say: "We were all born equal to compete as quickly as possible to unequally better off than everybody else." But we are not really born blank slates. For example we are hard wired to learn language. Some are probably genetically more facile than others, but the degree isn't that relevant. The hard wiring is there and without it we would not learn to speak. And in language there are common patters like verbs and nouns etc indicating to me a fundamental sameness of wiring. In the same way I do not believe that the capacity to empathize is a learned trait, but fundamentally genetic in nature. The degree to which it flowers as adults can vary depending of personal experiential history. Here again some may be born lacking a capacity to feel. If so I would not really consider them to be capable of real human experience. They would be more reptile than even mammal.

So when I say we are all the same I mean by that we were born with a human potential that become profoundly stunted by being put down as children. The greater one can recover ones true human nature, the more we feel empathy over hatred, the closer we come to being the God or fully realized human built in to as our natural potential. This is the meaning of the idea that we were created in God's image in my opinion.

 

[MichaelMay]

As is always the problem with words, what one means to you may not be what it means to me. This can lead to the same ability to differ on two sides. I do not know what you mean by basal or superficial when it comes to differences between us. In my estimation at a basal level we are lizards. In that we would be the same. At a superficial level you may like blue and I like green. Perhaps we can use the analogy of the Tabula Rasa, that we are all born the same. As my father used to say: "We were all born equal to compete as quickly as possible to unequally better off than everybody else." But we are not really born blank slates. For example we are hard wired to learn language. Some are probably genetically more facile than others, but the degree isn't that relevant. The hard wiring is there and without it we would not learn to speak. And in language there are common patters like verbs and nouns etc indicating to me a fundamental sameness of wiring. In the same way I do not believe that the capacity to empathize is a learned trait, but fundamentally genetic in nature. The degree to which it flowers as adults can vary depending of personal experiential history. Here again some may be born lacking a capacity to feel. If so I would not really consider them to be capable of real human experience. They would be more reptile than even mammal.

So when I say we are all the same I mean by that we were born with a human potential that become profoundly stunted by being put down as children. The greater one can recover ones true human nature, the more we feel empathy over hatred, the closer we come to being the God or fully realized human built in to as our natural potential. This is the meaning of the idea that we were created in God's image in my opinion.

I am in a horridly bad mood and I don't want to inflict it on innocent people so excuse me while I shy away from this conversation. Don't worry, you are not the cause, I'll reply when I'm calm and can reply in ... well lets say a more reasonable mood.

I hope you're doing well.

 

[Moonbeam]

There is value and there isn't. At their heart, religions largely exist to do two things: codify a society's moral framework, and explain things people didn't (or more lately, don't want to) understand. While that has led to some genuinely compassionate people and helped people deal with issues like grief or a sense of purpose, it's also based on false pretenses and has done its fair share of damage.

Are those false pretensed put there by the founder or by the followers after he or she is gone?

As we've seen all too clearly, that moral framework is the product of the secular community's views at the time (not necessarily the majority), and those views frequently have elements that are outdated or are purposefully spun and cherry-picked by devotees to suit their personal views. LGBT sexuality, abortion, slaves... heck, try telling a woman everyone should avoid her for a week because she's on her period. Morality needs to adapt as we learn more, and religion doesn't really allow that.

I see religions as paths or bridges designed to facilitate any of the myriad names that refer to some altered state of consciousness and that they need to suite the dominant concealed prejudices of whatever contemporary people they are consciously designed to serve. But people wind up mechanically fixated on the bridge, unaware of what it means to cross.

And of course, religion often gives people answers that are either incorrect or are attempts to fill voids where people either don't know the answers or don't like them. We as a species have trouble admitting that there's no evidence of life after death, that our real origins aren't glamorous, that we aren't the center of the universe or part of a greater plan. And that creates serious problems, as it leads people to both avoid pursuing the truth and do horrible things. How many people have been cruel to neighbors, or suffered unnecessary hardships, because they thought they'd be rewarded in the afterlife? Like I said earlier, life would arguably be better if people were content to deal with reality and accept "we don't know" as an answer.

Studies of liberal and conservative brain differences have identified two places in the brain where there are measurable size differences. The cingulate in liberals is larger. I functions in fear regulation, providing the ability to think more clearly when frightened. In conservatives the right Amygdala is larger and it functions regarding the manifestation of fear. These are differences of degree but theoretically, if accurate, imply that conservatives are more likely to experience feelings of threat and liberals more able to tamp down those feelings allowing them to stay more rational. The interpretation I recall reading is that conservatives rationalize data that is disturbing to their egos meaning that liberals are more capable of living with uncertainty and stay in reality. It seems that today conservatives are facing election extinction and have created an alternate reality in which they can justify the use of violence to quell the source of their fears, those monsters called liberals. This is very dangerous for them because without liberal openness to new experiences, interest in novel experiences and a greater ability to deal with frightening realities society would be fucked. They are working their way into becoming a suicide cult.

 

[amenx]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? – Epicurus

 

[arredondo]

Man what happened to our fire and brimstone member in this thread? Did he get raptured?

OK, I chuckled.

But you do bring up an interesting topic. What would some of you out there do if you're still around when all people with a true faith in the biblical God (alive or dead) at some point in the future are taken up to be with the Lord? Of course no one has any idea when the rapture will occur, but it will happen:

~~~~~
1 Corinthians 15:52
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

Mark 13:32
“But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
~~~~

So the rapture could happen a day from now, a year, a century, etc. Anyone telling you that they figured it out is lying. Still, what would some of you out there do if the rapture happened in your lifetime and due to your continual rejection of Jesus Christ, your choice was honored and as a result you were not included?

According to the bible, the tribulation period of seven years that followed would be the most devastatingly horrific time in history for you:

~~~~~
Matthew 24:21
"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will."

Matthew 24:37
"For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
~~~~~

"Son of Man" was a title for Jesus. What were the days of Noah like just before the great flood that will be replicated in the world when the tribulation period arrives that the Lord was referencing?

~~~~~
Genesis 6:5-7
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
~~~~~

This is what invites the final judgement of God over the earth. The evilness in everyone's heart will be out of control, just as it was right before the great flood.

Sp the antichrist and his false prophet (each of whom are sometimes called a beast) will control the "free" world during this time by demanding everyone to worship him or die:

~~~~~
Revelation 13:15-17
"And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name."
~~~~~

Personally I can see how the verses directly above could happen through the use of some type of android made to look like the antichrist. It would be forced into everyone's homes to watch them in a way similar to how Big Brother monitored an individual's every move and speech in the novel '1984', but that's just my personal speculation.

According to the bible literally billions of people will be killed during the tribulation period in a variety of awful ways:

~~~~~
Revelation 6:8
"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth"

Revelation: 9:18
"By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths."
~~~~~

^^^ That's just two of the terrible judgements that will happen to the sinful people who don't get raptured. It says in the first act of doom mentioned that one-fourth of the world will be destroyed, and in the second verse another one-third will be killed.

That's not even to mention the widespread lawlessness and anarchy happening all over the world since most people in that time will have zero respect for doing the right thing any more (that is, God's definition of righteousness). This will be in large part due to the fact that the Holy Spirit will no longer partially restrain evil doers from imposing their wickedness upon society as He has been doing all this time (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7).

Then there is all the crazy stuff that the antichrist will pour out over civilization as a whole that he rules over, which includes forcing people (via authority given to the false prophet) to get his mark placed on their foreheads or right hands in order to even buy food under penalty of death if anyone refuses:

~~~~~
Revelation 13:16-18
"Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666."
~~~~~

So in case any of you finds himself caught up in this terrible time to be alive on earth, here are a few tips for you (and any family or friends of yours) to give you some hope according to the bible:

1) Do not, under any circumstances, get the mark of the antichrist. No doubt it will be voluntary to show your allegiance to him (free will, ironically), but it will also be almost impossible to buy anything at all without it. Not only that, you may be hunted down and murdered should you refuse. As bad as that sounds, turning God against you forever would be worse:

~~~~~
Revelation 16:2
"So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image."

Revelation 14:9-11
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
~~~~~

2) As awful as all of this sounds (and it will be much worse in actuality), there is this encouraging verse:

~~~~~
Romans 5:20
"...but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more"
~~~~~

Remember the various verses above describing how deeply infected the world will be with sin at that time? It'll be collectively more wicked than at any time before it. Still, God gives you his promise... where sin increased, grace abounds all the more.

His grace is best found in a relationship with the Lord. If you reject the antichrist during the seven year tribulation period, your only hope is to accept the real Jesus Christ. Believe in your heart what He did for you on the cross because of your sins and ask Him to be a part of your life. At that point, no matter what your place in heaven with God will be secured forever. This verse suggests that more people will be saved during this time than at any seven year period in human history.

3) Once saved from death in the afterlife, your life on earth will still be in peril. You will then likely have to face the wrath of the one-world government ruled by the antichrist (first described in Daniel 2). Many, many, many people like yourself will face a brutal death for your choice of Jesus over the antichrist, and a primary way that this will play itself out by enemies cutting off your head. This verse is from a vision the apostle John had of the afterlife:

~~~~~
Revelation 20:4
"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands."
~~~~~

That's about it for the helpful tips. I pray that you don't need them by coming to terms with God's offer of grace right now should the rapture and tribulation period arrive sooner than later.

 

[Commodus]

Are those false pretensed put there by the founder or by the followers after he or she is gone?

It's baked into the religion by the founders, and perpetuated by the followers. Take Genesis, for example: it's a creation myth built to explain how humans came to be, and it's already setting rules. Notice how some of the earliest additional texts (Exodus and Leviticus in particular) devote special attention to establishing laws?

I see religions as paths or bridges designed to facilitate any of the myriad names that refer to some altered state of consciousness and that they need to suite the dominant concealed prejudices of whatever contemporary people they are consciously designed to serve. But people wind up mechanically fixated on the bridge, unaware of what it means to cross.

Not really. Religions like Christianity are pretty rigid about what they expect from devotees, even if there's wiggle room for interpretation at times. In Judaism, even the interpretations have a degree of codification (the midrash). And in a more philosophical religion like Buddhism, there are still social rules and an attempt to explain what happens when you die (reincarnation).

You see what I'm saying? Those impulses to set social rules and explain what people couldn't (or didn't want to) understand are common to virtually every religion. They're trying to establish human order in a universe that's ultimately indifferent to it.

Studies of liberal and conservative brain differences have identified two places in the brain where there are measurable size differences. The cingulate in liberals is larger. I functions in fear regulation, providing the ability to think more clearly when frightened. In conservatives the right Amygdala is larger and it functions regarding the manifestation of fear. These are differences of degree but theoretically, if accurate, imply that conservatives are more likely to experience feelings of threat and liberals more able to tamp down those feelings allowing them to stay more rational. The interpretation I recall reading is that conservatives rationalize data that is disturbing to their egos meaning that liberals are more capable of living with uncertainty and stay in reality. It seems that today conservatives are facing election extinction and have created an alternate reality in which they can justify the use of violence to quell the source of their fears, those monsters called liberals. This is very dangerous for them because without liberal openness to new experiences, interest in novel experiences and a greater ability to deal with frightening realities society would be fucked. They are working their way into becoming a suicide cult.

I've heard that there's a very real possibility political leanings are influenced by genetics. Hadn't strictly heard about the brain location sizes, but there have been claims empathy is a genetic trait, and conservatives tend to lack it. And yes, there's definitely a worry that conservatives will effectively hijack society and bring back problems we haven't had for decades, if not centuries.

 

[Pohemi]

...Of course no one has any idea when the rapture will occur, but it will happen...

...So the rapture could happen a day from now, a year, a century, etc. Anyone telling you that they figured it out is lying...

...According to the bible, the tribulation period of seven years that followed would be the most devastatingly horrific time in history for you...

...This is what invites the final judgement of God over the earth. The evilness in everyone's heart will be out of control, just as it was right before the great flood...

...Sp the antichrist and his false prophet (each of whom are sometimes called a beast) will control the "free" world during this time by demanding everyone to worship him or die...

...Personally I can see how the verses directly above could happen through the use of some type of android made to look like the antichrist...

...According to the bible literally billions of people will be killed during the tribulation period in a variety of awful ways...


^^^ That's just two of the terrible judgements that will happen to the sinful people who don't get raptured...

...the fact that the Holy Spirit will no longer partially restrain evil doers from imposing their wickedness upon society as He has been doing all this time (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7)...

...Then there is all the crazy stuff that the antichrist will pour out over civilization as a whole that he rules over, which includes forcing people (via authority given to the false prophet) to get his mark placed on their foreheads or right hands in order to even buy food under penalty of death if anyone refuses...

...So in case any of you finds himself caught up in this terrible time to be alive on earth, here are a few tips for you (and any family or friends of yours) to give you some hope according to the bible...

...1) Do not, under any circumstances, get the mark of the antichrist. No doubt it will be voluntary to show your allegiance to him (free will, ironically), but it will also be almost impossible to buy anything at all without it. Not only that, you may be hunted down and murdered should you refuse. As bad as that sounds, turning God against you forever would be worse...

...Remember the various verses above describing how deeply infected the world will be with sin at that time. It'll be collectively more wicked than at any time before it. Still, God gives you his promise... where sin increased, grace abounds all the more...

His grace is best found in a relationship with the Lord. If you reject the antichrist during the seven year tribulation period, your only hope is to accept the real Jesus Christ....At that point, no matter what your place in heaven with God will be secured forever. This verse suggests that more people will be saved during this time than at any seven year period in human history...

...Once saved from death in the afterlife, your life on earth will still be in peril. You will then likely have to face the wrath of the one-world government ruled by the antichrist (first described in Daniel 2). Many, many, many people like yourself will face a brutal death for your choice of Jesus over the antichrist, and a primary way that this will play itself out by enemies cutting off your head. This verse is from a vision the apostle John had of the afterlife...

That's about it for the helpful tips worthless ranting. I pray that you don't need them by coming to terms with God's offer of grace right now should the rapture and tribulation period arrives sooner than later.

Here's a perfectly valid response to this (and every other post you created in this thread):

None of what you've stated in this thread was written by anyone but imbecile humans 2 millennia ago. The only difference is that they were the deceivers, you're just one of the billions of hopeless sheep that have eaten it up hook, line, and sinker.

It wasn't written by "God", nor was it 'approved' by him when it was written by men. It's hilarious that you speak of it as if it were all verified fact and true.

Congratulations, you're an idiot of the caliber I won't even tolerate in my own family.