Is it a design error if a section of freeway allows water to pool up in the middle of the road?

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BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,390
11,742
136
I suppose there are exceptions like cutting a road over an unknown fault line or something unusual like that. Roads should be engineered for decades. It should not be let's lay this road in and see what time will tell.

Be it a road, a driveway or a roof, slope is critical to water management. Imagine buying a new home with a nice, normal peaked roof that shed's water as designed. After a couple weeks that peak has turned into a valley and your soaking wet. The shingles may not last more than a decade or two, but that roof structure should be there pretty much permanently.

It could be design, materials or workmanship, but it is the home-builder who responsible, not some luck of the draw as a consequence of father time.

Ground water and poor concrete/asphalt specs cause most road failures on non-freezing areas. Frost heaves add to that in those places with sub-freezing temps. Add to those the pounding many roadways get from heavy truck traffic, and roads fall apart. (Olds car discuss the maintenance headaches of CA freeways)
 

gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
813
250
136
Ground water and poor concrete/asphalt specs cause most road failures on non-freezing areas. Frost heaves add to that in those places with sub-freezing temps. Add to those the pounding many roadways get from heavy truck traffic, and roads fall apart. (Olds car discuss the maintenance headaches of CA freeways)

Do do typically see this cause roads with a normal crown become roads with a valley in the middle?

I am curious as to who is responsible for the specs and if they have any accountability.
 

OccamsToothbrush

Golden Member
Aug 21, 2005
1,389
825
136
We do have a problem with our infrastructure, but the problem probably is not with our engineering. We have been building roads for a long time in all types of environments with extremely long useful lives:

http://lgam.wikidot.com/council-asset-useful-life-tables

It's very difficult to believe that they are designed with no fore-thought of the earth beneath them resulting in roads built for hydroplaning. Intentionally building unsafe roads and leaving the rest to the common sense of drivers is not the structure that even our mostly dysfunctional local governments follow.

Under-funding our infrastructure is a problem. Incompetent or corrupt contractors are a problem. Designing roads that cannot shed water after only a couple years into their useful life, I don't think so.

The people who do roads are VASTLY underpaid because you apparently are holding them to a standard that only a god could reach. What color is the sky in your delusional world? NOBODY can predict underground streams changing course y 1* over 20 years and undermining a roadway. NOBODY can predict an earthquake that might happen 50 miles away and cause ground to settle a couple of inches. NOBODY can account for drains getting clogged with ice or leaves.

Here in the real world where road crews don't have infallible Ouija boards to plan their projects, unusual road conditions happen every single day all over the country.

-Cars break down and block lanes
-Raining causes puddles (The horror, the horror)
-Tree branches fall
-Rocks slide
-Leaves cover roadways making them slippery
-Fog reduces visibility
-It snows
-wires come down
-Wet turns to ice
and many other things happen.

And in EVERY ONE of those cases it is the responsibility of the driver to be operating his vehicle in a manner that allows him to see and react to obstructions in the roadway without spinning off into the trees. If you can't handle a puddle or a tree branch in the roadway without it causing a problem then YOU ARE DRIVING LIKE AN ASSHOLE.

If you don't understand that I invite you to go into court and try to sue whoever built a road because you hydroplaned off the road when you hit a puddle. And please, for the love of all that is good and holy, videotape what the judge tells you when you present your case. We all would love to see what happens.
 

brainhulk

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2007
9,418
454
126
What are the chances this gets fixed? This is the 91 fwy eastbound from the 110. I took a look at the satellite image and it is 6 lanes each side. This isn't some old town asphalt road. It is full on concrete elevated from ground level. We get rain maybe only a couple times a year at best. I hit the pooling water during a downpour on a weekend morning with no traffic. Therefore I was able to get up to 65mph. Otherwise there is always heavy traffic there. So with the rarity that this dangerous scenario occurs and the cost of repairing such a huge structure, chances are not good right?
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,570
96
The Romans built roads all over their empire and they are still being used even to this day. Now why we can't build roads as good as the Romans did?
 
Reactions: gill77

gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
813
250
136
The people who do roads are VASTLY underpaid because you apparently are holding them to a standard that only a god could reach. What color is the sky in your delusional world? NOBODY can predict underground streams changing course y 1* over 20 years and undermining a roadway. NOBODY can predict an earthquake that might happen 50 miles away and cause ground to settle a couple of inches. NOBODY can account for drains getting clogged with ice or leaves.

Here in the real world where road crews don't have infallible Ouija boards to plan their projects, unusual road conditions happen every single day all over the country.

-Cars break down and block lanes
-Raining causes puddles (The horror, the horror)
-Tree branches fall
-Rocks slide
-Leaves cover roadways making them slippery
-Fog reduces visibility
-It snows
-wires come down
-Wet turns to ice
and many other things happen.

And in EVERY ONE of those cases it is the responsibility of the driver to be operating his vehicle in a manner that allows him to see and react to obstructions in the roadway without spinning off into the trees. If you can't handle a puddle or a tree branch in the roadway without it causing a problem then YOU ARE DRIVING LIKE AN ASSHOLE.

If you don't understand that I invite you to go into court and try to sue whoever built a road because you hydroplaned off the road when you hit a puddle. And please, for the love of all that is good and holy, videotape what the judge tells you when you present your case. We all would love to see what happens.

My delusional world?

A 2010 Clemson University study of such claims and lawsuits found that hydroplaning accidents were among the most common causes for lawsuits against the highway agency and that 74 percent of the suits resulted in payments to the plaintiff.

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/st...e-cost-dot-millions-claims-lawsuits/79866952/

I guess we can all just blame the sad state of our infrastructure on earthquakes and ground water.

Or the fact that in the "real world" road crews need Ouija boards to discover that water freezes.

Sheesh.
 
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gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
813
250
136
I bed to differ as it was the soldiers themselves who did the road building as a way to keep them busy.

"Skin in the Game" by Nicolas Taleb

In Roman times, bridge builders, or members of their family, had to sleep underneath newly built bridges for a time.

No issues with accountability
 
Reactions: whm1974

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,217
5,076
146
all of your armchair quarterbacks are missing what really goes on out there. there are existing lanes and then they try and add Lanes. The Wiz bang engineers think they have it all figured out but too often they don't.
when you have originally supered corners and just try and tack a lane on, sometimes you just screw it up. these roads weren't widened from scratch.
very often the problem can be tracked back to unrealistic budget expectations.
 

gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
813
250
136
all of your armchair quarterbacks are missing what really goes on out there. there are existing lanes and then they try and add Lanes. The Wiz bang engineers think they have it all figured out but too often they don't.
when you have originally supered corners and just try and tack a lane on, sometimes you just screw it up. these roads weren't widened from scratch.
very often the problem can be tracked back to unrealistic budget expectations.

I am sure it is far more complex than we think. I guess we are putting down very few heavily trafficked roads where there were none before. More difficult to remodel a house than to build one from scratch.

If your experience is that our road issues are mainly from poor engineering, then this country is in far worse shape than I thought. Got to create and maintain a pitch on your roof and a crown to your road. These folks need to be held accountable.

No one will ever accuse me of not being critical of government, but I see very little to complain about here in Texas, road wise.
Interstates can get rough, but that is federal, and once the money is released, that layer of asphalt can be pretty darn smooth.​
Too much traffic, hard to blame that on anyone related to actual road construction.​
Flooding in Houston. When the whole town is under water, tough to blame it on the road builders.​
Pot holes in the city streets are another topic I guess.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,659
7,893
126
It isn't hard to add lanes on, at least with macadam road. Concrete's more expensive if they don't want to do a macadam overlay for whatever reason, but it still isn't any big engineering trick. Since it's concrete road, the base may have sunk for whatever reason, but if that were case, I'd expect the joints would knock your teeth out when you hit them. Maybe it was screwed up from the start. and they just didn't want to fix it. Dunno how they do things in CA, but that would never fly around here. Perhaps the lack of rain put it on the back burner.
 
Reactions: gill77

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,659
7,893
126
So why not simply build 4 lane roads at the start?
Money, and lack of immediate need. There may also be some psychological analysis at play. In busy areas, roads will always reach equilibrium at clusterfuck stage. If you fix things so they aren't a clusterfuck, people that took trains/buses/carpools out of frustration will notice, and the improved roads will become a clusterfuck again. If you just leave the existing clusterfuck, and hopefully improve mass transit, it'll give a net improvement after awhile in both air quality and quality of life. It should also save money, but it requires a huge outlay up front they either can't afford, or don't want to afford cause they like their government jobs.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,841
8,306
136
I am sure it is far more complex than we think. I guess we are putting down very few heavily trafficked roads where there were none before. More difficult
Pot holes in the city streets are another topic I guess.
A topic that concerns me greatly since I rollerskate and bicycle my town's streets. City streets here (Berkeley, CA and environs) are by and large dicey, often breathtakingly horrible. They passed a bill to finance repairs but AFAIK little if any of the allocated funds have gone into significant street improvements. No better way to gauge your city's streets than make a habit of skating on them (if seriously problematical, good luck finding a way from point A to point B without much aggravation).
 

gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
813
250
136
A topic that concerns me greatly since I rollerskate and bicycle my town's streets. City streets here (Berkeley, CA and environs) are by and large dicey, often breathtakingly horrible. They passed a bill to finance repairs but AFAIK little if any of the allocated funds have gone into significant street improvements. No better way to gauge your city's streets than make a habit of skating on them (if seriously problematical, good luck finding a way from point A to point B without much aggravation).

I bike and get it 100%. Some of our pot holes are man eaters.

Paying taxes would be less painful if we had good governance. Now it is like giving your proverbial brother-in-law money. Spends most of it on women and booze and the rest he just wastes.
 
Reactions: lxskllr

Jerem

Senior member
May 25, 2014
303
38
91
It's the guy running the tiner's fault. It's always the guy running the tiner's fault.
 
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