Is It Just Me?

[Luckyboy1]

Yes, I'm going to whine about the state of case design. I could care less about stupid colors, chrome and see through windows that are not only noisy, but crack easily. I am not going to pay for aluminum because it again is noisy, weak as they build them and hard to cut and deal with and subject to a greater amount of RF interferrence. Here's some features I'd love to see in a full sized case...

Yes, I know there's a few models that have the power supply mounted at the bottom where it belongs, but they all should be that way. It will reduce the ambient temps and make it run more efficiently.

Three optical slots is overkill, so why five or six slots when you could stack two, 120 mm fans at the bottom in the front, cooling nicely our Raptor drives and whatnot?

Why not 120 mm side fans instead of smaller fans and two of 'em would be fine? Come on, break me off a piece here!

Then you could have two, 120 mm fans in the rear and one 120 mm fan up top.

This way, you can run all the fans slow and quiet and still get excellent cooling. Have the two up front blowing in along with the two at the side blowing in. then have the two fans at the back and the one at the top blowing out and along with the power supply blowing out, you'd be fairly balanced as far as flow goes.


Then I'd love to see the cases be about an inch or two wider in the full sized mode.

I just got done looking at www.newegg.com cases in full sized and found nothing that even comes close. What are the chances I'll ever see a case like what I seem to be dreaming about?

 

[cyberknight]

I find front case fans don't do a significant job in overall case cooling.

 

[Mrvile]

Originally posted by: cyberknight
I find front case fans don't do a significant job in overall case cooling.

Ditto. Unless it's right next to something really hot (like the CPU or the vid card), intake fans don't really do any good. In fact, too much intake usually produces negative results. Exhaust is where da party at.

 

[Luckyboy1]

I actually think you are helping me make my point here. One or two smaller fans up front with all the stuff blocking the flow of air simply ain't makin' it!

I just e-mailed the design team at Thermaltake with my idea. I'm sure they'll give me a very nice customer service type response. I'm guessing it will go something like...

Thank you valued customer for your input... now go f off!:Q

 

[RallyMaster]

OP: I know how you feel. I'm really feeling like ripping out the 4 extra 5.25" bay covers and throwing in a 120mm. It would provide sufficient air for my Freezer 64 Pro as well as my NB cooler. However, I would disagree with the idea of side fans in my circumstances. I have all front to back airflow, which means that I have no need whatsoever for side fans. Currently, my 80 mm side fan is just as good as extra lighting when I wake up in the morning.

cyberknight: My front 120mm allowed me to drop CPU temps by 4 degrees at full load.

 

[Luckyboy1]

Actually, the myth that negative pressure is a good thing simply flies in the face of thermodynamic principles. Lower pressure means yes, lower temps, but that also means less molecules per cubic inch and as a result, less molecules per second floating by the fins on your radiators and parts. Truth is, you wanna stay just slightly positively pressurized for best results.

 

[imported_Seer]

turning on my 120mm front to full blast reduced load temp by 1.5-2.0 C, but its hideously loud, so I leave it on 7v ( I think thats what it is )

 

[Luckyboy1]

Also, how about some diversion of air to go back behind the mommaboard?

another idea... how bout air going on the RAM?

 

[Luckyboy1]

Well, depending on the confingeration, the side fans are not just helpfull, but needed. They should be placed so one blows fresh air onto the video card(s) and the other so it blows air on the heatsink for the CPU and a bit of an adjustable air dam would be good for that as well.

 

[Tt Tech]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
I just e-mailed the design team at Thermaltake with my idea. I'm sure they'll give me a very nice customer service type response. I'm guessing it will go something like...

Thank you valued customer for your input... now go f off!:Q

Instead of what you believe regarding our customer service team, we have decided to come here, to show you that we do indeed read these inquiries.

Now, like you said, a little bit of positive pressure within the chassis airflow is usually better for chassis cooling as it would circulate the air of certain corners of the chassis that would have been stale with an neutral/low pressure.

Then please take a look at the design of the Armor chassis:
http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/product/Chassis/fulltower/armor/va8000bns.asp
Please note its ability to mount up to 3 120mm intake fans in the front (if desired) for maximized air intake at a low RPM / noise.

As a basic knowledge in thermodynamics, heat rises upwards. The intake fans of standard chassis usually blows towards the PCI slots section as well as the AGP/PCI-E section, cooling the video card.
The air then rises up to where the CPU cooler is, and depending on the quality of the heatsink and fan of the CPU cooler, cools the CPU.

The PSU is usually mounted on top rear of the chassis for a reason. Quality power supplies today are usually consisted of 120mm intake fans. These 120mm fans not only cools the power supplies, they also draw the hot air out of the chassis along with the rear exhaust fans.

Having the PSU on the bottom of the chassis in a conventional setup would result in the PSU drawing the cold air intake from the front and pushing it out the back with its 120mm fan, creating a negative air pressure for the VGA and CPU cooler, which is undesirable.


Please note that demands such as your inquiry, "Make something like that and I'll post a direct link to it from my next version of the Guide. I'll give you 30 days to respond before I go on to the next manufacturer with my offer." would usually result in a negative response from other companies.

 

[Howard]

HOLY CRAP!

 

[Luckyboy1]

Thanks for the response, but at a point, I have to move on and hope for the best.

A power supply's primary job is NOT cooling the case. My understanding is that for every 10 F increase in ambient temperature for the power supply, you lose on average 10% in efficiency. In an age of gaming computers where 20 F will make you go from using a $120.00 power supply to a $190.00 power supply, I'd think it would be wiser to stick the extra money into another good quality, 120 mm fan at the top and put the power supply at the bottom.

Aslo, I have contacts in the Chinese metal stamping business like everyone else. I'd rather not try and hock a containter full of 'em, but who knows, with listening like yours, it may come to that!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Tt Tech stated--"The PSU is usually mounted on top rear of the chassis for a reason. Quality power supplies today are usually consisted of 120mm intake fans. These 120mm fans not only cools the power supplies, they also draw the hot air out of the chassis along with the rear exhaust fans. "

Not an entirely true statement!!
In order to mount the 120mm fan in what Tttech would call a quality power supply also demands that something has to give as in smaller heatsinks...or smaller components that are not as heavy duty as they should be.
Now to support my argument here are a few quality power Supplies...
I am not saying they are bad in anyway I am using pictures support what I have just stated...
Look inside the box.....small flimsy pieces of metal for heatsinks...
http://www.modthebox.com/reviews/seasonic/s12/seasonic13.jpg
Look at those nice beefy heatsinks in the Zippy that also has iether a 80 or a 90 mm fan...not a 120mm fan...
Also look at those huge heatsink in the PC Power & Cooling PSU--
http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=getarticle&articID=160

Needless to say..just becuase a PSU has a 120 mm fan on it does not in anyway means it oozes quality...
YET-- the Seasonic is a very fine PSU and IMO probably in the same league as the Zippys and the PC Power & Cooling...if not in the same league very very close!!

With every imporvement there appears to be some sort of give and take hopefully NOT to the detriment of the PSU!!

Also that scenario is not a very efficient scenario if you really think about it....
"These 120mm fans not only cools the power supplies, they also draw the hot air out of the chassis along with the rear exhaust fans." Looks good in practice and also sounds good but actually is defeating the purpose of having a rear 120mm exhaust fan. Also such a scenario can product spots around the CPU where the air all of a sudden sits idle due to what we shall call opposing air pressures!!

lets hope that as a supposed tech for Thermaltake he admits that he mis-spoke!!

****************************************************

Also to luckyboy with proper airflow top bottom doesn`t really matter where the PSU is located....you still need to have adequte air flow- thats just one of the basics of case cooling--adequte airflow...whats adequte to you might not be to me..its a very subjective topic..

This is one of those things that you will keep posting bottom bottom bottom...yet others see things for what they are..
In my opinion aslong as you are getting the results that you want and are happy there really is not top or bottom issue.
trust me there has never been any talk or disagrement as to what is best they both have there advantages!!

 

[Luckyboy1]

I agree that if the total case cooling is adequate at low noise levels, then whether the power supply is up top or wherever is not as critical. Problem is, for gaming rigs at least, none of these cases move enough air at low noise levels and do not have big enough filters for the intake air.

My current case is a Thermaltake XaserIII box and it makes me wonder if the folks at Thermaltake know hot to add. Come on now, it can't be all that difficult! To begin with, even for the tiny and inneficient because of their size 80 mm fans, they simply did NOT provide enough air intake space to keep from choking the fans at full throttle. This forced me to drill on the case in order to get what should have been there in the original design.

then they could have easilt fit 90 mm fans where the 80 mm fans are up front and even bigger ones on the side and back and top. Please save the it's not needed crap because it is substantially hotter up top than it is down bottom even with fans running full tilt with filters clean.

Then there is a full optical slot taken up by the stupid fan control, which could have gone anywhere and the display is hard to read and as a result, a pain.

Stupid neaon lights and chrome and see through panels may sell these boxes to teenagers, but I go for form and function, not splash and style!

 

[zagood]

Then please take a look at the design of the Armor chassis:
http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/product/Chassis/fulltower/armor/va8000bns.asp
Please note its ability to mount up to 3 120mm intake fans in the front (if desired) for maximized air intake at a low RPM / noise.

You already got your wish dude. Go buy one!

-z

 

[Luckyboy1]

High efficiency ventilation: Dual 12cm silent fans in front & rear, 9cm fans in rear & top

Not enough capacity at lower fan speeds.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
High efficiency ventilation: Dual 12cm silent fans in front & rear, 9cm fans in rear & top

Not enough capacity at lower fan speeds.

Again Luckyboy1....you make statements that jusr truthfully are not true......
There are many variables for example....
Is the rigg overclocked....
Are you running a p2--350 vs a top of the line AMN chip or Intel EE chip..
What is the computer used for.....
Also ther is nothing that says your temps need to be the absolute lowest....
Also Depnding on how clean your wiring job is and how many items you have in your computer...such 4 harddrives....dual video cards and such airflow might or might not be an issue...

Ther are very few absolutes when it comes to case and CPU cooling other than what you learned in Cooling 1o1.....

If you wish to talk temps....
Besides the 1--120 mm fan bottom front of care...
I have 1-120 mm fan rear top exhaust...
I have one zalman slin fan inside the case pointing at my ram becuase there was a dead spot there so as to move air....and I have one side panel fan that does its job well.
Nayurally this does not include video card fan nor the CP heatsink and fan with are all top notch and quiet....
since I believe I saw you state somewhere that you are strictly water cooled....
My ambient temp inside the house is almost a constant 71--74 degrees fahrenheit or 21c - 23c.
My temps on both my computers run in the mid 20`s at idle and in the mid 30`s under load...that inculdes this rigg which has been over clocked since the day I set it up...
right now it o/c`d to 4.0...from 3.2.....and my temps at idle are mid 20`s and at load mid 30`s...
Its all about airflow properly done....
I have considered water but just have not made the jump yet...

Have fun!!

 

[Luckyboy1]

and where in the case does the temp probe reside? In the bottom? Middle? Very top?

 

[potato28]

:sets up chair and gets a :beer:

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Luckyboy1
and where in the case does the temp probe reside? In the bottom? Middle? Very top?

Your assumming people judge there case temps by using probes......
There are more accurate ways to guage case temps other than probes....

Personally I use a hand held digital thermometer....
I have my probes located under the CPU itself and I have my other probe towards the top of my case!

I have also measured the temps of other areas inside my case..again with proper airflow there is really no discernable difference.

I have also found that almost all temperature monitoring programs are too varring degrees inaccurate....

Yet I have found that in my case Everst lines right up exactly with the readings that I get from my external digital theremometer. I have the probes inside the case positioned between the CPU and the heatsink fan...with the case closed just as if I was gaining with it..

anyways....no need fort me to answer questions.....since i also know what i am doing and talking about when it comes to case temps and achieving proper airflow.

Always nice chatting with you though!!

Maybe when I go water we can get together and I can pick your brain!!

 

[Zepper]

re. original post,

Wrong on point 1! If you isolate the intake and exhaust air for the PSU, it doesn't matter where they are located: top, bottom front, back or suspended on springs in the physiical center of the case (assuming empty space exists there. Just because most cases that do a bottom mount for the PSU also happen to isolate its airflow at least to some degree, is not proof positive that the bottom-mount PSU is the way to go. Take a look at the Arctic Cooling Silentium cases before writing the mass off.

Wrong on point 2! There are many useful items besides optical drives that reside in 5.25" bays. I have a mobile drive rack in one and fan controller (with a HD tucked in behind it) in another.

Iffy on point 3. I usually see no point at all in side mounted fans.

Iffy on point 4. Case designs with motherboard drawers would have to be made substantially wider to allow for 120mm fans in the rear thus incurring extra cost for the case material (and wasted but for the 120mm fans) and extra shipping as the basic carton would exceed the 84" limit for many standard shipping rates. But a 92mm mounts would fit most drawered cases - that definitely should be done. From that point improvement could be made easily if needed.

So lets tally the score: Point 1 - 0, point 2 - 0, point 3 - 0.5, point 4 - 0.5. Total = 1 out of a possible 4 = 25%... !AHHNNNH! - You flunked!

.bh.