Is it NOW in the Andromeda galaxy?

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Jaepheth

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2006
2,572
25
91
On a not-so-crazy note:

Your "now" is personal and unique. Because of limitations of the speed of light and the time it takes our brains to process information, everything you are able to perceive happened in the past. You can never truly see anything in the exact present "now".

See Dave across the room? That's not how Dave is now...you're seeing Dave from fractions of a second ago. It is physically impossible to perceive anything in its exact current state.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5drjr9PmTMA


Kind of reminds me of this experiment

[url=http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/time-on-the-brain-how-you-are-always-living-in-the-past-and-other-quirks-of-perception/]scientificamerican.com[/url] said:
Eagleman and his team asked volunteers to press a button to make a light blink—with a slight delay. After 10 or so presses, people cottoned onto the delay and began to see the blink happen as soon as they pressed the button. Then the experimenters reduced the delay, and people reported that the blink happened before they pressed the button.
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,840
617
121
I don't know about this delay shit. As soon as I edit PHP code and submit it to the FTP, it does what it's suppose to right there and then in the time it took to upload.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
Someone should stop trying to sound like a tech expert and see if they can fix their laptop instead of yelling for help.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
May I suggest a wonderful web series by PBS called Space Time

https://youtu.be/YycAzdtUIko

It's pretty accessible in a Carl Sagan Cosmos way but some of the videos really get into and explain relativity in an understandable way.

I had watched a good old NOVA one awhile back, there are a few out there.

I was watching a pretty good one on particle theory a few days ago, might have to dig it up again.

It was late, and a bit heavy for falling asleep trying to follow a lot of it.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,982
8,390
136
Actually it's all very definable. But you have to move outside of our understanding of time as it relates to clocks and calendars, and look at time from a definition of light traveling across the interstellar medium.


In as simple an analogy as I can think to present, imagine you are in some far off spaceship, light years from home.

You look through a telescope at home, one with sufficient magical power to see your family on the patio cooking up some burgers.

What you are seeing is in fact their past. It is your present, your "now" but it has happened years ago. You look away to contemplate that.

Now, you look back again and see they have moved. What you previously saw was their past relative to what you have just seen. It's all in the past to them, so let's make another magical leap.

Now you have two telescopes, both are tunneling through wormholes that, for this demonstration, transfer light instantaneously. One is seeing time as everything is happening, like a live video, but one is traveling through a different wormhole that has time dragged down by a few seconds.

Both telescopes relay the feed on a video screen side by side. You see a live video on the right, and the delayed video on the left. You are now witnessing present and past.

I don't know why I made the second part still in space, because you could represent that on Earth easily. Have one video feed that is a true live video, and have another that has the typical delay so they can censor any oopsies. You are witnessing past and present in that scenario just the same.

I hope that helped. Because in reality, there is very much a space-time definition of past and present. Future can be defined just the same, but you get into debates if you try and say the future is concrete. The past and present, however, are very much concrete and are encoded in light for all the universe to see, if one were to set about looking for it.

We see the past every time we look up at the night sky. We cannot see the present of anything in space, we don't have that magical live view. Even when we look at the sun it's 6 minutes old. The sun could be gone, poof, and we wouldn't know it for about 6 minutes!

But if you had super sci-fi magic technology [for now?], you could witness the present and discern the concrete difference between the past and present.
You are explaining your abstractions OK. However, they are simply abstractions. There is no present, there's only relatively present compared to obviously not present. You imagine that something is going on "now" somewhere that is inaccessible to your senses due to speed-of-light and relativistic concerns. However, that's your imagination, that's a set of abstractions that you conjure in your mind. It has no basis in science or sensory phenomena. It's like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. You say something is happening somewhere else "now" on faith. Heisenberg isn't so sure. He says show me, and you can't do that because it's impossible. That's why I say there is no such thing as actual simultaneity. It's a myth.
 
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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
Even when we look at the sun it's 6 minutes old. The sun could be gone, poof, and we wouldn't know it for about 6 minutes!

This right here sums it up to me. It's kind of mind blowing. While I understand it to be true, I can't wrap my mind around it in reality that light speed would cause something like this simply because....speed.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
It is always now somewhen.
Or more to the point, now is a mental concept of a non-specific space-time coordinate. It is exactly like saying is there a here in the Andromeda galaxy
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,427
8,388
126
it's always now. all points and all time always exist.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,982
8,390
136
It is always now somewhen.
Or more to the point, now is a mental concept of a non-specific space-time coordinate. It is exactly like saying is there a here in the Andromeda galaxy
That in itself is a concept whose basis in reality is very suspect. You throw coordinates on reality, but that's your construct, not reality's.
it's always now. all points and all time always exist.
That might be a good way to look at it, but what does time mean if it's always now?
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,672
28,051
136
That in itself is a concept whose basis in reality is very suspect. You throw coordinates on reality, but that's your construct, not reality's. That might be a good way to look at it, but what does time mean if it's always now?


Endless Summer!
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,427
8,388
126
That in itself is a concept whose basis in reality is very suspect. You throw coordinates on reality, but that's your construct, not reality's. That might be a good way to look at it, but what does time mean if it's always now?

 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,896
13,911
146
What you are looking for OP is the space time interval.

ds^2=dx^2+dy^2+dz^2 - c(dt^2)
d = delta
x,y,z = distance
t= time
c= the speed of light
s = spacetime interval

2 observers won't agree on distance or time or even necessarily the order of events but they do agree on the spacetime interval.

If the interval is 0 or positive then the observers do agree on the order events or causality.

If it's negative then the two observers don't agree on causality and the two areas of spacetime are not causally linked. IE no signal could connect them.

Also it means we are 4D line segments in non-Euclidian space connected by our birth and death.

I don't really understand this so watch the video I linked.
 

maniacalpha1-1

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,562
14
81
I was thinking about posting this as its own topic but since people are talking about related matters here:

If time would slow for you (relative to others on Earth) if you accelerated to near the speed of light, and time would also slow for you if you were near a black hole, is there a connection between those two things? In other words...has someone that has accelerated to near the speed of light had the same gravitational equivalent effect inflicted on them through their acceleration, as someone who is near a black hole experiences? Or are the reasons for those slowdowns completely different yet only coincidental that it's the same effect?
 
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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,896
13,911
146
I was thinking about posting this as its own topic but since people are talking about related matters here:

If time would slow for you (relative to others on Earth) if you accelerated to near the speed of light, and time would also slow for you if you were near a black hole, is there a connection between those two things? In other words...has someone that has accelerated to near the speed of light had the same gravitational equivalent effect inflicted on them through their acceleration, as someone who is near a black hole experiences? Or are the reasons for those slowdowns completely different yet only coincidental that it's the same effect?

If I'm relaying the information right the answer is yes the reasons for the time dilation are similar for both velocities near c and under high acceleration/gravitational fields.

The thought experiment they use is of a photon clock:


The red line is a photon that bounced off two mirrored surfaces. When it hits the bottom mirror the clock ticks.

When the clock is stationary relative to you the clock ticks at a constant rate.

If the clock begins to move relative to you the photon appears to take a longer angled path between the top and bottom mirrors and the time between ticks lengthens slowing the clock.

What's interesting is if an observer went with the moving clock it would appear to tick normally but a clock left with you would appear to tick slower from his frame of reference.

The faster the clock moves the longer the path the photon takes the slower it ticks until it stops ticking at the speed of light.

A similar effect happens with acceleration. If the clock accelerated up the photon has a longer total path to travel as the upper mirror moves away from it.

Here's a few videos that might help explain it.
When Time Breaks Down

Do Events Happen in a Black Hole
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
You are explaining your abstractions OK. However, they are simply abstractions. There is no present, there's only relatively present compared to obviously not present. You imagine that something is going on "now" somewhere that is inaccessible to your senses due to speed-of-light and relativistic concerns. However, that's your imagination, that's a set of abstractions that you conjure in your mind. It has no basis in science or sensory phenomena. It's like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. You say something is happening somewhere else "now" on faith. Heisenberg isn't so sure. He says show me, and you can't do that because it's impossible. That's why I say there is no such thing as actual simultaneity. It's a myth.

Well, if you wish to explain them away as abstractions, then I guess you'd rather see the idea of the universe itself as an abstraction, as simply a thought exercise, with no proof of existence.

You have to draw the line somewhere. We could all live in a holographic simulation - hell, the universe could be physically real but at a certain dimension, everything we know might be a holographic projection of data in a particular dimension.

What we know of space and time, and collectively spacetime, is that yes, at a certain level, time is time is time, and that time now is time now elsewhere.

Where it becomes murky due to relativity is observation of simultaneity. But observation is a matter that frankly does not even get considered in your question. Now = now. We are not asking about observation of now, we are talking about now.

There is no universal clock, we've invented that based on our presence and observation. What does exist is a universal scale in time, much like 3D coordinates. Time as we understand it, outside of observation by life, can be represented as an extension to coordinates on a map. However, this map has an added dimension.

It is not at all remotely easy to wrap ones mind around the concept. A 4D construct is nearly impossible to truly understand. And granted, this idea we have of "spacetime" may be entirely wrong, but I feel regardless of what comes to be "true" in relation to the fabric of the universe and whatever dimensional truths it holds, time is going to be a consistent construct at the most fundamental level. Time only gets "confused" by the presence of matter and gravity, otherwise, it is as consistent as the speed of light. In other words, time only gets weird when light gets messed up by gravity.

What we call time here and now is a human construct, based on our interpretation of time within our reality. That reality exists on a solid body, in its gravity well, which itself lives in a larger gravity well that is itself in yet another gravity well... and on and it that goes.

So to define "now", asking if that equals the same now in an entirely different location in the universe, is itself sort of a trick question. Yes and no. Yes in that, at the most fundamental level, if you remove the abstractions created by the varied levels of mass and gravity, the base time is absolutely the same.

But no, in that if we put clocks (which are based on our human perception, which is not the rule but merely an abstraction) in different locations, the "time" measured will be different, in sometimes extraordinary ways. But that is not time, that is a human approximation of time in a way that lets us define our lifestyles.

Certain major elements of Einstein's general relativity and the fundamental level of physics we've understood thus far, have been "proven" in recent efforts. Not that what that data represents is the end of all questions, as it does not preclude other theorized elements from existing as we suspect.

Dark energy, and/or the cosmological constant, have been demonstrated to exist. That does not mean that something spooky is working, just that there is something that we do not know or see is interacting in exactly the same way as Einstein deduced. Which is quite remarkable.

http://phys.org/news/2016-07-biggest-galactic-dark-energy.html

This may not seem to be entirely relevant, but when accepting that dark energy is a factor and deducing that dark matter and dark energy have been very important in shaping the universe, it very much demonstrates that other principles have thus far lined up, and our understanding of spacetime is linked to what we know of the voids in space and the matter and energy dispersed within it.

I won't remotely pretend to understand the mathematics behind all of this - I can hardly wrap my head around m-theory. But Einstein's spacetime theory has held up incredibly well against all odds. And what further science has even added when attaching time to the expanded dimensions in m-theory, helps show that even the basics thus far understood and/or predicted have held up under scrutiny.
 
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