is it possible for a society to only have an upper and middle class

[brianmanahan]

Lots of people in the lower classes have a variety of character flaws which hinder them in life.

while character flaws is one reason, lack of knowledge or health is another big one. or just plain bad luck.

 

[Paladin3]

The core issue is freedom. Americans are punch-drunk on freedoms. We demand the right to do whatever we want without anyone telling us what to do. It's our birthright and what our forefathers and hero-soldiers (someone else) fought and died for.

How can you force someone to work hard, be productive and escape poverty in a free society? We're too compassionate to let them starve, so we prop them up with social programs, while essentially demanding nothing from them in return. It's not truly painful to be at the bottom, at least not in a first world country like America.

It's kind of like evolution without the survival of the fittest part. Our social programs ensure even the most unfit get free room and board, so there is no real incentive for them to evolve into more productive members of society if they choose not to.

That's American Freedom for you. If you want to be free to excel, how do you tell others they can't do the bare minimum? The world needs ditch diggers too.

EDIT: And stop with this geeky fantasy that robots or automation is going to eliminate all need for manual labor while simultaneously proving a world of cheap, quality goods. No amount of automation is going to provide the world with $.25 Big Macs or $200 flying cars.

 

[Mixolydian]

For there to be a middle, there has to be at least 3. If there are too classes, one is upper and one is lower. It's all relative.

 

[Malak]

Or must there always be a struggling low class

So long as capitalism exists, there will always be a lower class. So long as you support democracy, there will always be dickheads in charge.

Ain't no party like the communist party cuz the communist party don't stop.

 

[desura]

while character flaws is one reason, lack of knowledge or health is another big one. or just plain bad luck.

Luck does play a role, but it isn't everything either.

 

[brianmanahan]

Ain't no party like the communist party cuz the communist party don't stop.

actually it pretty much did in the late 80s/early 90s

 

[Malak]

actually it pretty much did in the late 80s/early 90s

Still going strong in the hearts and minds of people who hope for equality.

 

[Acanthus]

When Barack Obama extolls "middle class America" what is implicit is that the people in the lower classes are there as a result of their own decisions, while the people in the middle classes do the right things, are punctual, respectful, and otherwise aren't troublesome.

Which is true. Lots of people in the lower classes have a variety of character flaws which hinder them in life.

So it is possible, IMO, for this to happen. It could only happen though in like a very low birthrate advanced society like we see in Japan or the Scandinavian countries.

So what you're saying is, 25,000,000 people have developed character flaws in the last 5 years in America. Wat.

 

[skimple]

Communism tried to make everyone equal. "Society" decided what jobs children should have, how much each person should get, etc.

I don't think that turned out too well.

 

[zephyrprime]

The core issue is freedom. Americans are punch-drunk on freedoms. We demand the right to do whatever we want without anyone telling us what to do. It's our birthright and what our forefathers and hero-soldiers (someone else) fought and died for.

How can you force someone to work hard, be productive and escape poverty in a free society? We're too compassionate to let them starve, so we prop them up with social programs, while essentially demanding nothing from them in return. It's not truly painful to be at the bottom, at least not in a first world country like America.

It's kind of like evolution without the survival of the fittest part. Our social programs ensure even the most unfit get free room and board, so there is no real incentive for them to evolve into more productive members of society if they choose not to.

That's American Freedom for you. If you want to be free to excel, how do you tell others they can't do the bare minimum? The world needs ditch diggers too.

EDIT: And stop with this geeky fantasy that robots or automation is going to eliminate all need for manual labor while simultaneously proving a world of cheap, quality goods. No amount of automation is going to provide the world with $.25 Big Macs or $200 flying cars.

Having lots of compassion is incompatible with freedom in my opinion. You either have a free society where those who won't work are left to die on their own or you have a socialist society that is not free so you can force lazy people to work.

 

[Braznor]

All clever hierarchical structures are insane to atleast some of its participants. This is usually because these people have to give much more than they shall ever receive back from the hierarchy. This is the lower class over which the bedrock of that civilization rests upon.

 

[Patranus]

Society in terms of what?

On a 'global' scale even the poorest of the poor in the United States have an unparalleled lifestyle. Thus, the US lower class is really the middle/upper class of the world and the shit hold 2nd/3rd world countries are our lower class.

 

[Vdubchaos]

Lower class? What lower class?

Our American liberal society is trending heavily towards "working people" and "non working people".



Only in the US can "lower class" society afford a late model chrysler product with dub deuces. Just gotta wait for that tax return money.

I think you are forgetting about new kind of slavery.

Bank/debt slaves

 

[epidemis]

Yes, if you outsource. Otherwise I'd say you cannot, because middle/lower class is an always escalating definition.

 

[videogames101]

"lower" is relative to "upper", so there will always be those with less and those with more