Is it stupid for Audi not to offer A4 2.0T Avant with a Manual?

[senseamp]

I mean they offer the sedan with a manual, why not wagon?
Am I the only one who thinks that station wagon buying demographic now is completely different than it was before? Now all the soccer mom crowd has moved on to SUVs and Minivans, the people left buying luxury AWD station wagons are:
- Euroweenies and euro-wannabes who may like MT more
- Outdoorsy people who want extra practicality of AWD for skiing trips and practicality of wagon for their gear, self reliant crowd that may want to shift for itself
- People who want to be different than the SUV/Sedan crowd, and thus may want an MT car as well to also be different
- People who like sportier handling of wagons compared to SUVs, and thus may like the sportiness of MT as well
- Hippies who had a Subaru wagon for a long time, probably with MT, got a tech job and want to upgrade

Discuss

 

[Yowen]

America is very big on buying automatics... That being said, for this particular car it would be nice to have the sales figures in the past of manual vs. auto to see if that is in line with this countries tendency to buy auto's.

 

[senseamp]

I mean even if it's not a huge number of buyers, why lose business if you already have an MT for the sedan, and sell A4 Avant in other countries with MT, all you need to do is offer it in US, R&D cost is already paid, plus you can brag of lower starting price.

 

[TruePaige]

Four of those do not make sense. Seriously? People buy them to be different from SUV people and may also want MT to be more different? What the hell?

- Hippies who had a Subaru wagon for a long time, probably with MT, got a tech job and want to upgrade
- Euroweenies and euro-wannabes who may like MT more
- Outdoorsy people who want extra practicality of AWD for skiing trips and practicality of wagon for their gear, self reliant crowd that may want to shift for itself
- People who want to be different than the SUV/Sedan crowd, and thus may want an MT car as well to also be different

One of those is false, as the DSG AT's are sportier if you are speaking from a performance standpoint.

- People who like sportier handling of wagons compared to SUVs, and thus may like the sportiness of MT as well

 

[Yowen]

Thats a good point, some of the autoboxes kinda of aproach the manual w/o having a clutch, kinda blurs the line between the two, maybe thats why they dont want a manual. That maybe requires retooling on the production line, which costs money.

 

[senseamp]

They already have a manual for the sedan. And they sell manual A4 Avant in other countries, so I don't really buy the retooling argument. Approaching manual without the clutch doesn't really cut it in terms of driver involvement. AT does not feel sportier than manual transmission, it just doesn't. It may be as fast or faster, but it's not the same experience. DSG is not offered on 2.0T, btw, just regular 6 speed auto, not that it matters.
And yes, people do buy wagons to be different from SUV crowd. I know a lot of wagon drivers who wanted practicality of SUV, but without the SUV stigma.

 

[NutBucket]

Even if other combinations are possible, manufacturers go for the fewest combinations that will still satisfy the majority of the market.

So, for the few people that want an A4 Avant manual, they will either go to an A3 or 3-series. Or, they will just buy an Avant anyway. Audi figures the number of customers they will lose is far smaller than the cost of an additional drivetrain.

Don't forget each variant costs money to make. I'm sure automakers would love manuals to disappear completely since production costs would go down.

 

[Kelvrick]

Americans don't buy enough of it is the argument. Subaru lost some sales when they stopped offering the legacy wagon in the US and just giving us the outback option. In the end, they figured the sales lost made up for more expenses.

I'm not an expert but I'm guessing maybe safety testing or whatever else regulations they have to deal with. In the end, it wasn't worth it.

The Cadilalc CTS sportwagon I think is one of the few new choices that got offered. OTherwise, it is deminishing. BMW and audi have their wagons but we lost some choices from subaru and mazda (mazda 6).

 

[senseamp]

Yeah, it's sad. Going to try the sedan, maybe its practical enough. Or just hold on to my Mazda3 hatch.

 

[TruePaige]

They already have a manual for the sedan. And they sell manual A4 Avant in other countries, so I don't really buy the retooling argument. Approaching manual without the clutch doesn't really cut it in terms of driver involvement. AT does not feel sportier than manual transmission, it just doesn't. It may be as fast or faster, but it's not the same experience. DSG is not offered on 2.0T, btw, just regular 6 speed auto, not that it matters.
And yes, people do buy wagons to be different from SUV crowd. I know a lot of wagon drivers who wanted practicality of SUV, but without the SUV stigma.

Nope, all of Audi's automatics are DSG as far as I know.

A4 Avant:

http://configurator.audiusa.com/acc/aoa-aoa-aoa-eng.view

They are all tiptronic.

Paddle Shifters can give you the shifting gears thing if you find that fun.

Otherwise it is just an additional expense to sell a manual automobile in that price segment as the negligible cost of equipping it with a DSG instead doesn't make or break the luxury car market. The costs of equipping the car with just a single transmission style instead of both helps offset it further.

 

[PricklyPete]

Yeah, it's sad. Going to try the sedan, maybe its practical enough. Or just hold on to my Mazda3 hatch.

Definitely check out the Sedan..and try driving one with a sports package and one without so you can see which of the two you want.

 

[vi edit]

Nope, all of Audi's automatics are DSG as far as I know.

A4 Avant:

http://configurator.audiusa.com/acc/aoa-aoa-aoa-eng.view

They are all tiptronic.

Paddle Shifters can give you the shifting gears thing if you find that fun.

Otherwise it is just an additional expense to sell a manual automobile in that price segment as the negligible cost of equipping it with a DSG instead doesn't make or break the luxury car market. The costs of equipping the car with just a single transmission style instead of both helps offset it further.

Tiptronic isn't the same as DSG. Tip is just a traditional automatic (torque converter) with paddle or selectable gears. DSG is a completely different technology that turns a true manual transmission with a clutch pedal into one with a paddle shift. It doesn't suffer the drivetrain loss of an automatic transmission and can shift faster than a traditional stick shifted manual that uses a clutch pedal.

 

[TruePaige]

Tiptronic isn't the same as DSG. Tip is just a traditional automatic (torque converter) with paddle or selectable gears. DSG is a completely different technology that turns a true manual transmission into one with a clutch pedal into one with a paddle shift. It doesn't suffer the drivetrain loss of an automatic transmission and can shift faster than a traditional stick shifted manual that uses a clutch pedal.

Sorry, I thought they were just calling it all tiptronic and wasn't aware, as their sister brand VW sells DSG equipped models.

Thanks for the information, vi edit.

A tiptronic transmission is different from the just a regular automatic though isn't it?

One thing I'll ask though is that if the Tiptronic works like you say, why does it still boast reasonable performance gains over a manual?

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/2697/Porsche-997-Turbo.html

 

[coxmaster]

One thing I'll ask though is that if the Tiptronic works like you say, why does it still boast reasonable performance gains over a manual?

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/2697/Porsche-997-Turbo.html

He was describing the DSG transmission.. Not the Tiptronic. In a lot of cars the DSG does perform better than a manual

 

[vi edit]

There's really nothing unique about "Tiptronic". It's just a normal automatic transmission that you can either bump the gear selector or hit a paddle behind the steering wheel. As far as why VW & Audi haven't really proliferated the use of DSG over trip, I'm not really sure. Right now only the GTI/GLI for VW and the A3 (I think) for Audi have DSG. No other vehicles equipped with the 2.0t have it I beleive. You won't see it with larger engines as I believe it has some issues handling high applications of torque.

Performance difference can vary wildly from auto vs stick for a number of reasons. Driver competence, gearing(number of shifts needed before hitting tested speeds), traction issues, ect. See the multi-page long "are manuals still relevant" thread for more discussion.

 

[coxmaster]

As far as why VW & Audi haven't really proliferated the use of DSG over trip, I'm not really sure. Right now only the GTI/GLI for VW and the A3 (I think) for Audi have DSG. No other vehicles equipped with the 2.0t have it I beleive.

Not entirely true. I recently purchases an 08' Jetta Wolfsburg (2.0T) with the DSG transmission. I also test drove a few 2.5 Jetta's with a DSG. Its an option

 

[EightySix Four]

I know that the software inside the DSG's computers does a good job of limiting the levels of torque through it, even on tuned cars.

 

[vi edit]

Not entirely true. I recently purchases an 08' Jetta Wolfsburg (2.0T) with the DSG transmission. I also test drove a few 2.5 Jetta's with a DSG. Its an option

I've been a bit out of the loop on what VW has been doing lately. I was mainly looking at Passats at the time and none of the their 2.0t offereings had moved to DSG yet. Even with the sport packages.

 

[TruePaige]

He was describing the DSG transmission.. Not the Tiptronic. In a lot of cars the DSG does perform better than a manual

No, the Porsche has the tiptronic transmission.

"The 911 Turbo with the optionally available Tiptronic S automatic transmission puts in an even more impressive performance. An optimized setup gives the vehicle the wherewithal to power from zero to one hundred in just 3.7 seconds and to reach 200 km/h after a mere 12.2 seconds. The Turbo with automatic transmission also has the advantage when it comes to flexibility. In penultimate gear it accelerates from 80 auf 120 km/h in 3.5 seconds. Fuel consumption by the Tiptronic S variant is 0.3 liters lower than that of its predecessor: 13.6 liters in accordance with the EU standard. Both transmission variants have a top speed of 310 km/h."

 

[coxmaster]

No, the Porsche has the tiptronic transmission.

Ah, i see what you were saying. I mis-read initially. It could be any number of things causing the performance difference.

 

[TruePaige]

Ah, i see what you were saying. I mis-read initially. It could be any number of things causing the performance difference.

I just wanted to pose the question to see if ATG had any interesting thoughts, as the car is basically the same otherwise.

If the tiptronics still give a performance boost than it is nice to know you can rely on that type of transmission to be a competent performer even if quite different from a DSG manumatic (I love portmanteau's for some reason..)

 

[PricklyPete]

I believe VAG labels any of its automatic transmissions (i.e. ones with torque converters) that can be manually shifted (whether with paddles or with shifter) as a tiptronic. If the transmission is of the DSG variety...it is called S-Tronic by Audi, DSG by VW, and PDK by Porsche (note Porsche is really just now becoming part of VAG and the DSG transmission used is home grown and completely different than the two sourced types used in the rest of the VAG offerings).

In the case of the A4, the tiptronic transmission is made by ZF and is similar if not the exact hardware used by several cars in the segment including the BMW 3-Series. Obviously each manufacturer tweaks the control software to there needs and mounts it to their own engines using there own process...so the transmission won't necessarily work exactly the same way in each application...but overall the hardware is the same/simlar.

I gave in to my wife and bought her an automatic A4 instead of a manual A4 a month ago (it is her car after all). and while I never thought I'd enjoy driving an automatic car, the Audi has won me over. There is plenty of torque in the engine, and the transmission is sufficiently responsive to keep from pissing me off (that is in Sport mode...the default Drive mode is programmed toward fuel savings...which honestly have been impressive...we've been averaging around 28 mpg and have gotten up to 33 on the highway). While the "tiptronic" feature is no where near as responsive as the DSG transmissions I test drove...it is much better than most systems I've tried and will keep me entertained enough that I don't cry missing my manual. Don't get me wrong...if this were my car it would have a manual...but I've become perfectly content with the automatic.

For reference, the only "true" automatics (ones with torque converters) that seemed better than the Audi when I test drove a bunch of cars was the one in the G37 and the on in the 3 Series...I think the 3 Series has a lot to do with how BMW programmed the control software...but really the difference between the two was minor and may have more to do with the engine output/throttle control software.

One last note, I remember reading somewhere that ZF has managed very minimal drivetrain loss from this transmission...likely why I've seen such fantastic gas mileage driving this car. We really are happy with our purchase.

 

[KMc]

As an owner of a manual A4 Avant (2008 B7), I must say I was a bit dismayed to hear of VAG's decision to discontinue this variant. I'd like to move to the new B8 version next year, so I guess I'll be investigating the Tiptronic.

I guess in the OP's exhaustive demographic analysis, I would fall into category #2, but I'm not going to abandon my vehicle choice just because the MT is no longer available.

 

[StageLeft]

Manuals are dying. I'm sure they ran the numbers and felt for the small number of people who'd care about this it wasn't worth it.

 

[Doggiedog]

Do they offer a regular A4 in manual? When I went car shopping around the same time last year, they didn't offer one. I also couldn't believe what they were asking for the A4.

All the floor models were 2.0T with S-Line Prestige and they were going for $48-$54K. That was absolutely insane. That much for a 4 banger?!?