is Linux really free ?

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lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,679
7,904
126
Given that the UI, window manager, etc is all proprietary to Apple and closed I have no idea what that project is actually trying to accomplish.

Not sure. Maybe something that had flawless interoperability with Apple products might have some value for people. Put Unity, or Gnome3 over Apple guts, and you could have a poor mans Mac. A lot of Apples appeal though is their industrial design for the hardware. I don't know how much people value the O/S for its own sake.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Not sure. Maybe something that had flawless interchangeability with Apple products might have some value for people. Put Unity, or Gnome3 over Apple guts, and you could have a poor mans Mac. A lot of Apples appeal though is their industrial design for the hardware. I don't know how much people value the O/S for its own sake.

But the interoperability would be extremely flawed as no non-X11 graphical apps would work. If you're going to run Gnome anyway, you might as well just put Linux on your Mac and help the FOSS driver devs improve them.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
Not sure. Maybe something that had flawless interoperability with Apple products might have some value for people. Put Unity, or Gnome3 over Apple guts, and you could have a poor mans Mac. A lot of Apples appeal though is their industrial design for the hardware. I don't know how much people value the O/S for its own sake.

Quite a lot. Why else would there be hackintoshes?
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,679
7,904
126
Quite a lot. Why else would there be hackintoshes?

Forbidden fruit? Just to do it? I tried some version of OSX in a VM, and I wasn't impressed. The shackles of Windows, and the lack of compatibility of GNU/Linux.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Forbidden fruit? Just to do it? I tried some version of OSX in a VM, and I wasn't impressed. The shackles of Windows, and the lack of compatibility of GNU/Linux.

The shackles of Apple are much worse than those of MS...
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,679
7,904
126
The shackles of Apple are much worse than those of MS...

I agree. That's the biggest reason I won't use Apple products of any kind. There's a few smaller reasons too, but I really don't like being told how to use my devices, and I'm against the appliance approach Apple takes with their stuff.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
Forbidden fruit? Just to do it? I tried some version of OSX in a VM, and I wasn't impressed. The shackles of Windows, and the lack of compatibility of GNU/Linux.

There are enough people who are impressed but don't want to pay more for hardware. Just look at the Apple subforum.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
I agree. That's the biggest reason I won't use Apple products of any kind. There's a few smaller reasons too, but I really don't like being told how to use my devices, and I'm against the appliance approach Apple takes with their stuff.

How are they telling you how to use your device? You can do whatever you want with the hardware you buy.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,679
7,904
126
How are they telling you how to use your device? You can do whatever you want with the hardware you buy.

Apple locks you into their ecosystem, and you do things their way, or GTFO. You can hack around the restrictions, but it takes more work than it does with Windows.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
It's different not worse, at least not yet.

Oh no, it's definitely worse. You're only legally allowed to use their OS on their hardware, you have no real control over the look and feel of the system, they replaced X with their own BS so in order to run free, GUI unix apps you need to install an X server on top of their own windowing system, in order to develop for iOS you need to purchase a full blown OS X system, etc.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
Apple locks you into their ecosystem, and you do things their way, or GTFO. You can hack around the restrictions, but it takes more work than it does with Windows.

I don't see how that's any worse than Windows. With either system you can install programs as you please. At least with OS X you can hack the base system to your desire. Not so much with Windows unless you're willing to pay, and then you're bound by an NDA.

What kind of restrictions are you talking about?
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
Oh no, it's definitely worse. You're only legally allowed to use their OS on their hardware, you have no real control over the look and feel of the system, they replaced X with their own BS so in order to run free, GUI unix apps you need to install an X server on top of their own windowing system, in order to develop for iOS you need to purchase a full blown OS X system, etc.

Everything you mentioned, except for hardware restriction, applies to MS's ecosystem too.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,679
7,904
126
I don't see how that's any worse than Windows. With either system you can install programs as you please. At least with OS X you can hack the base system to your desire. Not so much with Windows unless you're willing to pay, and then you're bound by an NDA.

What kind of restrictions are you talking about?

Apple is like having your playpen in the living room of a house, and Windows is like having it at a toy store. Both are closed, but the resources available to Windows are much greater. MS also doesn't care much what you do with their software, as long as you buy it.

Portables too. Apple locks you into their ecosystem, and makes very difficult to get applications that didn't come from Apple. If Apple doesn't like your application(that you paid money to produce), they won't let anyone have it. They own the hardware, they own the software, and as long as you keep giving them money, they'll let you rent it for awhile.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
Apple is like having your playpen in the living room of a house, and Windows is like having it at a toy store. Both are closed, but the resources available to Windows are much greater. MS also doesn't care much what you do with their software, as long as you buy it.

Except once you install Windows, you have to call in to activate. And you can't install multiple copies without paying more. I would argue that the resources are greater for OS X since it's Unix, so it can run X out of the box (it's either on the install disk or from their website). The compiler and development suite are also free. That's not the case with MS.
Portables too. Apple locks you into their ecosystem, and makes very difficult to get applications that didn't come from Apple. If Apple doesn't like your application(that you paid money to produce), they won't let anyone have it. They own the hardware, they own the software, and as long as you keep giving them money, they'll let you rent it for awhile.

If you're talking about laptops, there's nothing stopping you from installing anything you want. If you're talking about smart phones, MS does the same thing.
 
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Vad3r

Senior member
Nov 25, 2000
274
0
0
hi there OP here,

thread has taken a different direction, and thats fine and all.

I would like to say, anyone thats wishes to try out Linux can do so for free. Distrowatch.com will link you to any version u wish to try.

I live in Toronto Ontario, and for the life of me, cannot find any store that sells linux. Such as Bestbuy, Futureshop, Canada Computers, Staples,,,,,,,, NONE. I can't find it for sale anywhere.

Why not,,,, well because it is free to download and use.

My friend stands by his argument. He claims his company does pay for Linux, thus, you all do too. You may not see it on the bill or invoice, cause it's hidden. Thus Linux cannot be free.

If he will ever produce this evidence of collecting income from Linux, i will forward it onto Linus Torvalds.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
hi there OP here,

thread has taken a different direction, and thats fine and all.

I would like to say, anyone thats wishes to try out Linux can do so for free. Distrowatch.com will link you to any version u wish to try.

I live in Toronto Ontario, and for the life of me, cannot find any store that sells linux. Such as Bestbuy, Futureshop, Canada Computers, Staples,,,,,,,, NONE. I can't find it for sale anywhere.

Why not,,,, well because it is free to download and use.

My friend stands by his argument. He claims his company does pay for Linux, thus, you all do too. You may not see it on the bill or invoice, cause it's hidden. Thus Linux cannot be free.

If he will ever produce this evidence of collecting income from Linux, i will forward it onto Linus Torvalds.

You have a very confused and stubborn friend, it seems.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,679
7,904
126
Again, free doesn't refer to price. This point is extremely important, and is really the only point that matters. His company may very well pay for some kind of GNU/Linux. Usually that's for a support contract, but it doesn't have to be. I could burn a copy of Ubuntu to a CDR, sell it for $100, and I'd be perfectly within my rights to do so. Finding buyers is another question, but I'm still within the law, and spirit of free software.

If you're friend can't wrap his head around that distinction, then he doesn't belong anywhere near software procurement. He can't understand basic licensing agreements.
 

TSDible

Golden Member
Nov 4, 1999
1,697
0
76
I think your friend may very well be right.

You can in fact buy Linux. Many companies do. Costs that companies incur are almost always passed on to the consumer.

Of course, you are correct as well.

The company could also run a completely "free" version of Linux.

But they could still charge for the operation and maintenance.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
I think your friend may very well be right.

You can in fact buy Linux. Many companies do. Costs that companies incur are almost always passed on to the consumer.

Of course, you are correct as well.

The company could also run a completely "free" version of Linux.

But they could still charge for the operation and maintenance.

His friend would be right if he left his point at that, but he seems to be under the belief that everyone pays something for Linux regardless of how you procure it. I suppose that depending on how big of a douche he's trying to be, he could mean that there is the cost of the medium. Meaning your Internet connection, disk space for the ISO, disc to burn it to, etc are all costs you incur with using Linux. Which while true, those apply to virtually every OS.
 

HeXen

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2009
7,832
38
91
His friend would be right if he left his point at that, but he seems to be under the belief that everyone pays something for Linux regardless of how you procure it. I suppose that depending on how big of a douche he's trying to be, he could mean that there is the cost of the medium. Meaning your Internet connection, disk space for the ISO, disc to burn it to, etc are all costs you incur with using Linux. Which while true, those apply to virtually every OS.

actually it applies to most everything in life. His friends viewpoint is still a wrong viewpoint.
 

wrosecrans

Junior Member
Mar 29, 2011
7
0
0
This thread has veered considerably from the original topic, so I am responding directly to the OP in hopes of addressing the original question instead of feeding the platform trolls.

I have a question about this, and I believe I already know the answer.

But, I had a loud argument with 2 buddies over this, this past weekend. I am certain I am right, and so are they.

Buddy one argument: 1 of my 2 buddies works for a large Canadian phone/Internet provider. He claims that there is a hidden tax passed onto consumers that pays for there servers that I guess are running linux. Perhaps they do run linux, his argument is that because they do, customers must pay for it, although it's hidden. So he says says Linux is not free.

My argument, the tax is hidden because it's not legal to charge consumers for Linux, it's open source. If i start a company, have linux for the servers, it is free. I i want to have "Support" for them, that is the cost. The Support, not the software.

Well, first off, let's start with what "Free Software," is. Free has two meanings in English, and people sometimes use them interchangeably which can be confusing. People tend to use two French terms, libre and gratuit, which both translate as "free," to clarify. Free (gratuit) means something that you don't pay for. You get something, you have no fewer dollars. It's free. Free (libre) also referes to freedom. This second definition is what "Free Software," is normally really referring to. This sense of free software means that if somebody gives you the binaries for a program, they will also give you the source code and you can modify the program and give the source to other people who will also modify it. Contrast this with something like Windows which is not Free Software (even if you get it without paying as part of a giveaway.) You aren't allowed to modify Windows and fork it to create your own version that you give to people. The Linux kernel, and many of the programs in a typical distribution of Linux are released under the Gnu General Public License, which is a free software license. It's terms are that if you give somebody binaries under the GPL, you also have to give them source. If they want to give somebody a modified version, it has to retain the GPL license. The GPL doesn't require anybody at any point to charge zero dollars. (Nor the BSD or any of the other licenses typical for Linux software, though there are some variations on the rules.)

So, your premise that it is illegal to charge for Linux is incorrect. I'll gladly sell you a copy of Ubuntu for twelve million dollars. It would be perfectly legal. The only requirement is that I give you the source code if you want it. You can then make a version of Ubuntu and sell it for twenty million dollars a copy. But, you have to give your modifications to anybody you sell it to, and they can give it away for free if they want. Given that everything you get when you buy a copy of Linux will also be available freely, vendors tend to also include support contracts with the software. But, while paying does get you support, that doesn't mean it is illegal to charge for the software directly

If a Canadian ISP uses a version of Linux that they pay for because they want the support that comes with RHEL, that doesn't mean there is a "secret tax." It's just a cost of doing business. There's no more a secret tax for staplers or hard drives or hookers for the executives. A customer pays his bill, and the company spends their money on whatever they see as the best use of their money.

Buddy number 2: he tells me I'm foolish to think there are coders / programmers out there working for nothing. Why would anyone write code, make software and give it away. He insists there is a income coming from someone. Buddy one gives him his answer. He cannot believe people write software for free.

A typical Linux distribution probably has something like a dozen lines of my code in it. I once gave a four line patch to a graphics library to improve portability. I once gave a few lines to an open source game that fixed a crash bug if you left the game sitting paused for too long. As a person who has done exactly what your friend days is impossible, I have to raise a counter question. Who would write code, make software, form a corporation, hire some marketing people out of pocket, rent an office, do a bunch of accounting paperwork, quit his day job, and try to get people to pay him for a small patch of a few lines that is only worth anything to a very small number of people? Or something to process some obscure martian elevation data for 3D rendering? Or to convert obscure tracking data? Selling software is a major pain in the ass. Even when I have written fairly substantial things, I'm not going to bother to make a software company to try and sell them. That would be ridiculous. Programmers are programmers. Programmers aren't salesmen. They solve problems that matter to them, and generally speaking, keeping something useful a secret is of no value. Maintaining a secret proprietary changeset to some software is inconvenient compared to submitting it upstream. Keeping a useful tool secret and preventing somebody from submitting useful changes is of no value. Writing software for free is often the result of a very level headed cost benefit analysis.

Imagine a company that wants to sell storage appliances that do something that Linux doesn't do. They can either start from scratch to write a kernel, and spend 95% of their time writing code they don't care about,a nd just trying to be as good as what already exists. Or, they can write a module for Linux that does whatever super RAID storage stuff they want to do, and have a product out the door and making money in 5% of the time and cost of plan A. In that case, having the changes be proprietary would obviously be of some value if you could monopolise your market. But, the benefit of that monopoly has to be considered in terms of the costs. If you open your platform, then other people will give improvements and addons and you can leverage their engineering efforts. Having a monopoly in a small market is sometimes worse for the bottom line than being a major player in a larger market. In this case, programmers are working for a very nice salary, but the software is still free.

Obviously, some people make that analysis and don't see the benefit of going the GPL/Linux route. Isilon, for example, uses BSD as a starting point for their OneFS software which runs on specialized storage clusters. BSD doesn't require the release of changes, so Isilon can keep all of their software secret, and they do good business with that model.


So this left both attacking me on how Linux cannot be free.

I have been duel booting Linux/Win X since 1999-2000. Linux has always been free, windows has always cost something.

How do you explain to buddies Open Source software, OS. They don't get it, and don't believe it.
It must cost so they say.

anyhow, had to run it by here, my friends are not dummies, nor am i, but we both can't be right.

As it turns out, none of you is completely right. Hopefully, this has clarified some of this for you. Having given away plenty of software that I've written, I can assure you that it happens. Why do people write blog posts and give them away? Why do people write forum posts for free?
 

HeXen

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2009
7,832
38
91
why not keep it simple and logical to the typical home user.

1. Download anything that says "Freeware"
2. Open your wallet and make sure your money is there.
3. If its there proceed to step #4. If not go straight to #5.
4. Consider it free and find something to do. Like talk to your family or something.
5. you either got fuckered or your geekily over analyzing a retarded topic. Go back to step #4
 
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