is Linux really free ?

[lxskllr]

why not keep it simple and logical to the typical home user.

1. Download anything that says "Freeware"
2. Open your wallet and make sure your money is there.
3. If its there proceed to step #4. If not go straight to #5.
4. Consider it free and find something to do. Like talk to your family or something.
5. you either got fuckered or your geekily over analyzing a retarded topic. Go back to step #4

Because freeware isn't free. Free software is better than no cost software. Here's n example. I have an Android tablet. It's just a piece of junk I picked up because the price was right, and it works at least as well as the money I spent on it. Anyway, it uses a MIPS processor, so a lot of Android apps won't work on it.

An app I really want is a decent keyboard. I have exactly 2 to choose from that work halfway decent, and I'm not thrilled with either. BUT, there's a free/libre keyboard that looks ok from the screenies, and while it won't install, I do have the source code available. Since I have the source code, it should be trivial to compile it for a MIPS cpu. It isn't trivial for me, but I intend on learning, and the freedom that keyboard supplies allows it to happen. When I port it over to MIPS I'm free to give, or sell it to other people that have a MIPS cpu, and want a decent keyboard also.

I can't do that with the other keyboards, even freeware keyboards. That's why software freedom is important, and a much more important distinction than price.

 

[HeXen]

Because freeware isn't free. Free software is better than no cost software. Here's n example. I have an Android tablet. It's just a piece of junk I picked up because the price was right, and it works at least as well as the money I spent on it. Anyway, it uses a MIPS processor, so a lot of Android apps won't work on it.

An app I really want is a decent keyboard. I have exactly 2 to choose from that work halfway decent, and I'm not thrilled with either. BUT, there's a free/libre keyboard that looks ok from the screenies, and while it won't install, I do have the source code available. Since I have the source code, it should be trivial to compile it for a MIPS cpu. It isn't trivial for me, but I intend on learning, and the freedom that keyboard supplies allows it to happen. When I port it over to MIPS I'm free to give, or sell it to other people that have a MIPS cpu, and want a decent keyboard also.

I can't do that with the other keyboards, even freeware keyboards. That's why software freedom is important, and a much more important distinction than price.

*facepalm. wow you missed my post so far i can't even......*facepalm

 

[lxskllr]

*facepalm. wow you missed my post so far i can't even......*facepalm

I didn't miss anything. Your post wasn't really relevant to the topic. Even taking it all literally, checking your wallet after downloading your freeware, and finding money is no guarantee that money will be there tomorrow. It could be quietly siphoning off keystrokes, while you enjoy your "free" program.

Free software isn't some esoteric discussion that only affects techies. It's an important concept that affects everyone, and understanding the difference is crucial to making software choices.

 

[ultimatebob]

I'll give you an example why Linux isn't "free".

A few weeks ago, I needed to a build a kiosk system that runs a Java applet. The client wanted to use Linux to avoid paying a Windows license fee. I ended up wasting three weeks of time arguing with the system vendor to get working Linux touch screen and video drivers for CentOS (the platform the client decided to use), because they didn't have them listed on their website, and they flat out didn't work properly once I finally got them and installed them. We ended up having to modify the source code of the driver and recompile them ourselves to fix that issue.

After I got that fixed, we found that the performance of our Java applet sucked when running under Linux. It seems that the Sun JDK for Linux isn't as optimized for video applications as the Windows JDK is.

Since the developer wasn't willing to modify their applet to get around the issue (and we were way behind schedule at this point), we then tried using Windows 7 Embedded for the kiosk instead. It took all of 2 days to get a working prototype to the customer, with 50% better performance. All it took to install the touch screen drivers in Windows 7 was to run the setup.exe and click finish. That's basically it.

So, yeah... Linux is only free if your time isn't worth anything to you.

 

[HarryLui]

ultimatebob, how much was the windows license fee?

 

[velvetpants]

I'll give you an example why Linux isn't "free".

A few weeks ago, I needed to a build a kiosk system that runs a Java applet. The client wanted to use Linux to avoid paying a Windows license fee. I ended up wasting three weeks of time arguing with the system vendor to get working Linux touch screen and video drivers for CentOS (the platform the client decided to use), because they didn't have them listed on their website, and they flat out didn't work properly once I finally got them and installed them. We ended up having to modify the source code of the driver and recompile them ourselves to fix that issue.

After I got that fixed, we found that the performance of our Java applet sucked when running under Linux. It seems that the Sun JDK for Linux isn't as optimized for video applications as the Windows JDK is.

Since the developer wasn't willing to modify their applet to get around the issue (and we were way behind schedule at this point), we then tried using Windows 7 Embedded for the kiosk instead. It took all of 2 days to get a working prototype to the customer, with 50% better performance. All it took to install the touch screen drivers in Windows 7 was to run the setup.exe and click finish. That's basically it.

So, yeah... Linux is only free if your time isn't worth anything to you.

That doesn't mean anything.

I can compile a C program on linux in no time, but it would take me a shitload of time setting up the environment and doing it on windows.
I can make a bit by bit image of a hard drive with a single built-in command in linux, but on windows I would need to go searching for 3d party software that may or may not work as well.

If what you're trying to do hasn't been implemented properly on your platform, then of course it's gonna take longer to get it working.

 

[ultimatebob]

ultimatebob, how much was the windows license fee?

The quote I got from the vendor was $89. The Embedded "POSReady" edition was cheaper than the other options.

 

[xSauronx]

The quote I got from the vendor was $89. The Embedded "POSReady" edition was cheaper than the other options.

id guess that the license fee was probably cheaper per license than an hour of your time, eh?

 

[ultimatebob]

id guess that the license fee was probably cheaper per license than an hour of your time, eh?

An hour? No.. 60+ hours of development, testing, and general arguing with your vendors over driver issues? Hell yeah.

 

[Nothinman]

I'll give you an example why Linux isn't "free".

A few weeks ago, I needed to a build a kiosk system that runs a Java applet. The client wanted to use Linux to avoid paying a Windows license fee. I ended up wasting three weeks of time arguing with the system vendor to get working Linux touch screen and video drivers for CentOS (the platform the client decided to use), because they didn't have them listed on their website, and they flat out didn't work properly once I finally got them and installed them. We ended up having to modify the source code of the driver and recompile them ourselves to fix that issue.

After I got that fixed, we found that the performance of our Java applet sucked when running under Linux. It seems that the Sun JDK for Linux isn't as optimized for video applications as the Windows JDK is.

Since the developer wasn't willing to modify their applet to get around the issue (and we were way behind schedule at this point), we then tried using Windows 7 Embedded for the kiosk instead. It took all of 2 days to get a working prototype to the customer, with 50% better performance. All it took to install the touch screen drivers in Windows 7 was to run the setup.exe and click finish. That's basically it.

So, yeah... Linux is only free if your time isn't worth anything to you.

So you've never run into issues with Windows that have cost you weeks or months of time to figure out how to fix? Just last week I wasted ~8hrs trying to get SQL 2008 R2 on Win2K8 R2 but every time after the installation finished sqlsrvr.exe would crash. I never did figure out what was going on and I think the client is just blowing away the VM and starting over.

But the main point is that Windows runs into the same types of obtuse, issues that take a lot of time to figure out or even worse they can't be fixed because you can't modify the source like you did with the touch screen driver. What would you have done if the Windows driver hadn't worked properly like the Linux one? Your only option would have been to call the manufacturer and try to convince them to help you. And there's no guarantee they will and if they do I bet it would have taken more than 3 weeks just to get that fixed.

The problem with your story is that you were attempting to implement something that was never properly tested. The scope of your project should have been more precise or there should have been a clause that allowed you to bill them T&M for all of the out of scope work you put into getting the applet working on an untested platform. Your issue was business related, not technical.

 

[Ancalagon44]

I reckon Buddy One is confused with the fact that some companies place a special levy on recordable DVDs and CDs, and DVD/CD writers, which is paid to copyright groups to offset piracy losses. I think he has confused Linux with losses due to piracy.

 

[Nothinman]

I reckon Buddy One is confused with the fact that some companies place a special levy on recordable DVDs and CDs, and DVD/CD writers, which is paid to copyright groups to offset piracy losses. I think he has confused Linux with losses due to piracy.

That's possible, I had forgotten that Canada did that. But that only applies if you use a CD/DVD for the install. If you use a USB stick you've avoided that tax.

 

[Anteaus]

I'm a layman here in regards to many of the specifics mentioned in this thread, but I've never been one to understand the all or nothing approach here. I've always been a fan of the "right tool for the job" mentality. While no one can deny the the virtue of "free" software, as with everything else there is an opportunity cost. In the example mentioned above, Windows was the right choice for that particular situation, given the various circumstanes. It's easy to judge from the outside without knowing the particulars.

Also, there is a snob element to all of this, because many of the people will the strongest opinions tend to be people with very strong programming skills which are focused in certain fields and are therefore biased. I'm vastly more impressed with the person who considers all options and finds a solution that balances time and cost regardless of their personal software prejudices.

It's easy to sit back, pick a side and then say f**k all as to the costs because of some philosophical view, but at the end of the day it's about making money.

 

[Nothinman]

It's easy to sit back, pick a side and then say f**k all as to the costs because of some philosophical view, but at the end of the day it's about making money.

Not all of the time. My personal PC at home isn't ever used for making money so the best choice in this case would be whatever I like best.

But I don't see how that's relevant to whether or not there's a hidden, financial cost to acquiring Linux.

 

[lxskllr]

I'm a layman here in regards to many of the specifics mentioned in this thread, but I've never been one to understand the all or nothing approach here. I've always been a fan of the "right tool for the job" mentality. While no one can deny the the virtue of "free" software, as with everything else there is an opportunity cost. In the example mentioned above, Windows was the right choice for that particular situation, given the various circumstanes. It's easy to judge from the outside without knowing the particulars.

Also, there is a snob element to all of this, because many of the people will the strongest opinions tend to be people with very strong programming skills which are focused in certain fields and are therefore biased. I'm vastly more impressed with the person who considers all options and finds a solution that balances time and cost regardless of their personal software prejudices.

It's easy to sit back, pick a side and then say f**k all as to the costs because of some philosophical view, but at the end of the day it's about making money.

Sure, there's a lot to consider. You also have to keep in mind future upgrades, expansion, and support. Windows may be the better choice today, but will it be in the future? Maybe, maybe not. That's why you pay people to help with the decision making. With MS there's a lot of commercial support, but niche applications can fall through the cracks, especially with boutique software companies. Using free software allows you to modify the code, even if the original vendor is no longer in business.

There's a lot of variables that come into play, and without being intimately familiar with each individual situation, a recommendation can't really be given.

 

[Eug]

why not keep it simple and logical to the typical home user.

1. Download anything that says "Freeware"
2. Open your wallet and make sure your money is there.
3. If its there proceed to step #4. If not go straight to #5.
4. Consider it free and find something to do. Like talk to your family or something.
5. you either got fuckered or your geekily over analyzing a retarded topic. Go back to step #4

Funny you should mention that. One of the things I hate most about the Acer computers I bought is the 45 minutes I spent deleting all the "free" crapware pre-loaded on them.

I wanted Windows 7, but not Windows 7 + piles of free bloatware.

 

[Shadowknight]

Funny you should mention that. One of the things I hate most about the Acer computers I bought is the 45 minutes I spent deleting all the "free" crapware pre-loaded on them.

I wanted Windows 7, but not Windows 7 + piles of free bloatware.

Have you used PC-Decrapifier? It usually does a pretty good job of removing that stuff for you.

 

[Eug]

Have you used PC-Decrapifier? It usually does a pretty good job of removing that stuff for you.

Thanks. I'll have to try that next time.

And it's free!

 

[Fallen Kell]

I'll give you an example why Linux isn't "free".

A few weeks ago, I needed to a build a kiosk system that runs a Java applet. The client wanted to use Linux to avoid paying a Windows license fee. I ended up wasting three weeks of time arguing with the system vendor to get working Linux touch screen and video drivers for CentOS (the platform the client decided to use), because they didn't have them listed on their website, and they flat out didn't work properly once I finally got them and installed them. We ended up having to modify the source code of the driver and recompile them ourselves to fix that issue.

After I got that fixed, we found that the performance of our Java applet sucked when running under Linux. It seems that the Sun JDK for Linux isn't as optimized for video applications as the Windows JDK is.

Since the developer wasn't willing to modify their applet to get around the issue (and we were way behind schedule at this point), we then tried using Windows 7 Embedded for the kiosk instead. It took all of 2 days to get a working prototype to the customer, with 50% better performance. All it took to install the touch screen drivers in Windows 7 was to run the setup.exe and click finish. That's basically it.

So, yeah... Linux is only free if your time isn't worth anything to you.

And that is a hardware/software spec mis-match, not a fact that linux is or isn't free. Linux is free. Just because you didn't use hardware that was fully supported created the problem that required you to spend your time. And because it was open source, you were able to even make your own drivers. This is no different than if you had bought hardware which there wasn't a driver for Win7 64bit and tried to run it on Win7 64bit. In that case, you probably would not have even had an open source driver, and thus would not have been able to make changes to it and compile your own that would work, and instead would have simply had to pound sand and had to purchase different hardware that did support Win7 64bit. Again, not a "linux isn't free" issue because YOU (or the person who spec'ed the hardware) didn't do the most basic of things and verify it worked and was certified for use under linux.

As for Java performance, are you sure you used Oracale's Java and not the built in OpenJDK? Heck, we find that Oracle's Java works better on Linux than under Oracle's own Solaris. Maybe certain things are even more fine tuned under Windows, but at least for our applications, Windows and Linux performance is pretty much par.

 

[ultimatebob]

And that is a hardware/software spec mis-match, not a fact that linux is or isn't free. Linux is free. Just because you didn't use hardware that was fully supported created the problem that required you to spend your time. And because it was open source, you were able to even make your own drivers. This is no different than if you had bought hardware which there wasn't a driver for Win7 64bit and tried to run it on Win7 64bit. In that case, you probably would not have even had an open source driver, and thus would not have been able to make changes to it and compile your own that would work, and instead would have simply had to pound sand and had to purchase different hardware that did support Win7 64bit. Again, not a "linux isn't free" issue because YOU (or the person who spec'ed the hardware) didn't do the most basic of things and verify it worked and was certified for use under linux.

As for Java performance, are you sure you used Oracale's Java and not the built in OpenJDK? Heck, we find that Oracle's Java works better on Linux than under Oracle's own Solaris. Maybe certain things are even more fine tuned under Windows, but at least for our applications, Windows and Linux performance is pretty much par.

The problem is that the touch screen PC vendor (like most vendors we talked to) said that they had working Linux drivers for their product, and then we found out the drivers sucked when we tried them. Like many of the PC vendors we tried, the drivers were missing features or just didn't have the touch screen accuracy of the Windows drivers.

I guess that I can't be too hard on the vendors for this... if 90% of your customers are using Windows for their applications, you're going to put your development effort in making sure THOSE drivers are solid.

We also tried both the OpenJDK and the Sun/Oracle JDK for our project under Linux, and neither performed well as the Sun/Oracle JDK under Windows. I think that's because the JDK for Windows has hooks into DirectX for better video performance. I'm not a Java developer, though, so don't quote me on that.

 

[Nothinman]

The problem is that the touch screen PC vendor (like most vendors we talked to) said that they had working Linux drivers for their product, and then we found out the drivers sucked when we tried them. Like many of the PC vendors we tried, the drivers were missing features or just didn't have the touch screen accuracy of the Windows drivers.

I guess that I can't be too hard on the vendors for this... if 90% of your customers are using Windows for their applications, you're going to put your development effort in making sure THOSE drivers are solid.

We also tried both the OpenJDK and the Sun/Oracle JDK for our project under Linux, and neither performed well as the Sun/Oracle JDK under Windows. I think that's because the JDK for Windows has hooks into DirectX for better video performance. I'm not a Java developer, though, so don't quote me on that.

Actually, you can still be very hard on the vendors for that. They shouldn't be advertising Linux support if it isn't really there.

 

[Vad3r]

TSDible
I think your friend may very well be right.

You can in fact buy Linux. Many companies do. Costs that companies incur are almost always passed on to the consumer.

Of course, you are correct as well.

The company could also run a completely "free" version of Linux.

But they could still charge for the operation and maintenance.

His friend would be right if he left his point at that, but he seems to be under the belief that everyone pays something for Linux regardless of how you procure it. I suppose that depending on how big of a douche he's trying to be, he could mean that there is the cost of the medium. Meaning your Internet connection, disk space for the ISO, disc to burn it to, etc are all costs you incur with using Linux. Which while true, those apply to virtually every OS.

This nails his argument on the head Nothinman. He was saying everyone pays for it, because everyone is paying for internet service from someone.
He could not see the point, "what if someone doesn't have internet service", he would reply, "what point is there to having a computer".

I have told him, with his logic, I (we his customers) also pay for his cigarettes and beer, it's just not shown on the internet billing as such.

So all and all, it was worth asking here. I now understand that I can download linux, and then sell it (should i be able to find people that are willing pay for it). Prior to posting, i did not think you could.

I know believe that his company (my ISP) can/could pay for linux. I had a very hard time with this with my thinking. But i do not agree with his view that Linux must be paid for simply because his company does, so everyone does. And that was his initial argument.

So, i will call a truce with him, so long as he agrees anyone "can" have it for free if they wish

wrosecrans: I did read ur post and thank u for taking the time to explain.

to posters weighing Cost vs Time. You can view it that way if thats how you feel. From the time i heard about linux, what is was, and what it stood for. I wanted it, I wanted to learn all I could.
I've destroyed distro's beyond recovery, not on purpose, just tinkering. Trying for hours and days on end trying to fix it. Giving in, and starting over. The time invested was worth it for "me".

I bought a dSLR camera some 10 years ago. I took some really bad photo's for a good period of time. But I kept reading and learning. It took a good deal of time to all sink in, then I started getting better. I still take photo's today, don't earn a nickel at it. But taking the time to learn was worth the time for "me".

 

[HeXen]

anyone remember that story of the kid who got expelled or whatever for handing out copies of Linux to his HS class mates? couple years back or so.
He was accused of pirating. lol

 

[lxskllr]

anyone remember that story of the kid who got expelled or whatever for handing out copies of Linux to his HS class mates? couple years back or so.
He was accused of pirating. lol

I heard a similar story regarding a Navy guy. His immediate superior reported him to the big guy(whoever that is in the Navy), and he had to explain himself to him. Nothing else came of it, but his immediate superior persisted, even after having it explained to him.

 

[Kalessian]

Anandtech linux section... regurgitating outdated-year-2000 anti-linux arguments since, well, 2000 (maybe before that).