Is Mercedes running Chrysler into the ground???

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,647
27
91
It seems as though Chrysler was doing just fine before the DC merger. Now, after the merger, the Chrysler unit is loosing money faster than you can say sourkraut and tons of layoffs have taken place.

It seems that the styling that we all grew to love during the 90's has been diluted now with the redesigns of the Sebring/Stratus/Viper/Caravan.

I'm just wondering why there was a merger in the first place.
 

kamiam

Banned
Dec 12, 1999
2,638
0
0


<< I'm just wondering why there was a merger in the first place >>


you know the answer to that one bud...$$$$$$$$ and greed
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,647
27
91


<<

<< I'm just wondering why there was a merger in the first place >>


you know the answer to that one bud...$$$$$$$$ and greed
>>


Money and greed, and running off all of Chrysler's top management and top design guys (Tom Gale comes to mind)
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,776
31
81
The problem is just that the companies just have two different corporate cultures. I really scratch my head when it comes to Chrysler. I think they're the best of the &quot;big three,&quot; but their bottom line doesn't reflect that.
 

Redneck

Senior member
May 20, 2000
386
0
0
One of Chrysler's investors isnt suing them for 9 billion just for sh!ts ang giggles
 

Thanatopsis

Golden Member
Feb 7, 2000
1,464
1
0
They merged because Chrysler had poor sales in the international market, and DaimlerBenz had a small market niche in the US. Neither had the sales where they wanted them, although both had been doing fine in their perspective markets. They both wanted more, so DaimlerBenz bought Chrysler. Its a shame that the US lost one of its big three automakers to a foreign company. At least Ford and GM seem to be financially sound.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,776
31
81
Ford and GM are just out there, gobbling up companies like Volvo and Saab, respectively, and are ruining them with their cheap parts in the process.
 

iamwiz82

Lifer
Jan 10, 2001
30,772
13
81
uhhh... Eaton left in such a hurry cuz he knew the economy was crumbling. He saw the warning signs and sold out as soon as he could. This is the rumor floating around DC HQ.
 
Feb 12, 2001
258
0
0
The Chrysler-Benz merger always seemed like a bad idea, but if it affected the styling of the new cars, it was good in that regard. The chiseled back end on the Sebring, Intrepid, and 300M looks great, IMO. The vans look better than ever. The only design problems I see are the front ends of the Concorde and Sebring. Namely,

1) They look like grinning fish
2) If you live in a state that requires front plates, they look like grinning fish with buck teeth.

Other than the fish thing, a Sebring coupe with 17-inch alloy rims looks sweeeeet. As far as the Viper goes...I liked the S2000, I liked the old Viper, and frankly, I got right over the new styling quirks when I saw that it had 500HP and 500 ft-lbs of torque. Plus I think a red start button in a car is just too cool...but maybe that's just me.
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,647
27
91


<< I love the styling on the new stratus and the stratus coupe. >>


The Stratus coupe and Sebring coupe are fine. But compared to their predecessors, the Stratus and Sebrings sedans are a step backwards. The Neon went mainstream with it's styling, the new Ram looks basically the same, and the same goes for the minivans.

What happened to taking design chances?
 

Capn

Platinum Member
Jun 27, 2000
2,716
0
0
If you consider the avenger the predecessor to the stratus coupe I guess I'm on the fence on that issue. I was at a dealership and saw a stratus coupe r/t with black leather interior in a nice silver color, made my '96 avenger 4 cyl look like a homely cousin.

Personally I never got all hot and bothered over the styling on the old stratus, and the new one seems to have about the same effect.
 
Feb 12, 2001
258
0
0
Yeah, I forgot about the Stratus. It's a fine-looking car, a mini-Intrepid if you will.

You wanna talk about design chances...seen the Hemi concept? It's ugly! But who knows. Maybe the Aztec buyers won't be the once-bit-twice-shy kind.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
I strongly believe American automakers are on a path to demise.
They are getting their butt kicked by higher quality and better engineered cars from Japan. So they place their bets on SUV's and even there Japanese are attacking them. Look at Tahoma vs. F150 crash tests.
The point is, when consumers are given a choice, they will pick the better product. The Japanese are acting, and Americans are reacting. When everyone stops buying Fords, then Ford will take the quality problems seriously. But it will be too late.
I don't think Daimler messed up Chrysler, it was just inevitable.
 

Midnight Rambler

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,200
0
0
A.) NFS4: Nice to see that you now know who TG is. I'm psyched to be working with both him and his son in the future (already done a lot of work with his son).

B.)

<< Ford and GM are just out there, gobbling up companies like Volvo and Saab, respectively, and are ruining them with their cheap parts in the process. >>

I don't mean to put down the poster of this quote, but rather use it as an example of the typical ignorance displayed by those who talk about things of which they know very little to nothing. The FACT is, automakers worldwide share most of the same suppliers, be it for interiors (BMW and GM source their interiors from the same supplier for example ...), glass, headlights, whatever. In fact, there are now consortiums through which automakers can jointly make purchases from suppliers, and share in the decreased costs realized by buying en masse. Covisint is one example of this at work.

C.)

<< I strongly believe American automakers are on a path to demise.
They are getting their butt kicked by higher quality and better engineered cars from Japan. So they place their bets on SUV's and even there Japanese are attacking them. Look at Tahoma vs. F150 crash tests.
The point is, when consumers are given a choice, they will pick the better product. The Japanese are acting, and Americans are reacting. When everyone stops buying Fords, then Ford will take the quality problems seriously. But it will be too late.
>>

Yet another example of erroneous bias and lack of facts. First off, there is no evidence to prove Japanese cars are better - in fact, in most areas thy are sub-par compared to their counterparts. But the #1 reason that American automakers are facing difficulty has nothing to do with design or quality - it is that foreign markets are essentially closed to them. Yes, they can sell cars abroad, but at great penalty because of the attrocious markups that foreign countries place on US-built cars, as well as cars built &quot;in-country&quot; by U.S. automakers. Bottomline, it is unfair competition practices. The U.S. market is totally open to any foreign automaker, and has been flooded by them, yet if GM or Ford ships a car to Japan, tariffs raise its price from 50 to 200%. Nearly every foreign country does this to us. The most recent slap in the face has come from India. GM and its offspin Delphi have invested billions to bring good jobs to a country when few others were willing to do so. In fact, India's burgeoning tech industry is not mainly from investment by Silicon Valley, but rather companies like GM and esp. Delphi. Delphi employs more people in India's tech industry than anybody else, and pays the highest wages by far, to workers (such as EE's and CE's). So what does India turn around and do? First they proposed an 80% tariff on foreign cars and cars built in country but by a foreign-based company. But some in govt. thought that wasn't enough and increased it to a 120% tariff. Some gratitude huh?

To top it all off, many foreign automakers are now &quot;dumping&quot; cars in the U.S. You've heard the term before, when it happened first with the steel industry, and then in the computer memory biz. Companies &quot;dump&quot; their product at far less than cost, just for the sake of making some sales. This practice has all but wiped out the U.S. steel industry, and has left Micron as the only major U.S. memory producer (Micron is always suing over these &quot;dumping&quot; practices, you may have seen it in the news in the past). Historically, the Koreans have been the worst offenders when it comes to dumping. First steel, then memory. Now it's Korean cars. Does anyone really believe that Hyundai can build an equivalent car for $13-14,000 U.S. that costs even Toyota at least $22-24,000 themselves to build? If so, I got some Fla. swampland for sale ...

Bottomline all we want is a level playing field. And all you N. Americans, esp. the young ones, had better take notice of this impropriety and help overturn it by way of your wallets (note: most foreign countries already discourage their citizens to not buy foreign products) as well as contacting your govt. reps. Because we are losing our manufacturing base here, and that is what built this country in to what is it today. Not to mention, it was our manufacturing base that allowed us to win WWII. The mass production of tanks, planes, etc., were mostly built by Ford, GM, and Chrysler, because there were no other industries (incl. aviation) who could accomplish such feats of large scale production.. Heaven forbid there ever be such a war again, but if there is, we are in deep sh!t !!!
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
Another reason that Chrysler appears to be losing so much money is the fact that after the merge, Daimler-Chrysler put a lot of non-income-generating resources over on the Chrylser side.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,836
9,071
136
As much as I enjoyed your post Midnight Rambler, it left me on a sour note at the end. I don't believe that the US manufacturing base is being &quot;eroded&quot; because of foreign dumping. The US has been steadily moving towards a services-oriented economy mainly because we enjoy higher wages, lower prices and a higher standard of living. Just look at the buying power of an American dollar here at home and compare it to what foreign currencies can buy over in their home countries. We produce only the goods/services where we have a comparative advantage and that way we get to consume more than we could without trade. The American economy is consumer-oriented, not producer-oriented (though Dubya seems to be tryin to change that.)

Can the Koreans make a direct competitor to the Accord and Camry and price it $5000 to $7000 cheaper??? You betcha! All because they have lower fixed capital costs, lower capital depreciation costs, lower labor costs and lower shipping costs (shipping is important--I advise everyone to read up on how Korean shipping conglomerates have helped Korea go global!)

And about WWII being won on the strength of our manufacturing--that's not quite how it went. Our manufacturing expertise was built on the needs of WWII. We began supplying tanks, planes and ammunition to our allies before we even started fighting ourselves! I bet when WWIII comes along and we're tryin to sit on the sidelines, a good number of those countries with import tariffs will probably drop them once they need guns, munitions, tanks and aircraft again! If we do get directly involved, I doubt it would take much time for manufacturing to pick up.
 

whizbang

Senior member
Feb 16, 2001
745
0
0
Supertool, noone buys pickup trucks based on crash tests. It will be quite a while before Toyota or any other foreign maker makes a dent in the pickup market because Jethro and Bubba are loyal to their amerkun nameplate (primarily Ford or Chevy). I think every pickup in the detroit area has one of those Calvin &amp; Hobbes &quot;Piss on GM&quot; stickers and vice versa. I've never seen a &quot;Piss on Toyota&quot; sticker.

Here, here, Midnight Rambler. It was difficult watching my IT friends at Chrysler sweat it out over the current layoffs, while the indentured slaves...er...H1 Visas from India retained all their jobs. Having been at Chrysler during the &quot;merger&quot;, I can say this was bad from the start. Eaton knew things were going from bad to worse, so he must've felt like he was unloading swampland. Thing's didn't seem right from the beginning, when Daimler tried to convince the U.S. that this was a merger and not an acquisition, yet all major executive positions were held by German's...

 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
I appreciate foreign car makers &quot;dumping&quot; their cars here.
If they want to sell cars below cost, I will buy. I don't think it's the case though. I believe honda, toyota, and even nissan are profitable companies, so I doubt they sell at a loss, aside maybe from hybrid cars, which are just wetting american appetites.
Crash tests might not be everything, but it shows a culture of corner cutting. As an engineer, safety would be priority number one for me.
And you have to remember that not so long ago, people didn't care much about car safety either. A few european manufacturers came in with some safe cars, and everyone eventually followed.
 

Midnight Rambler

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,200
0
0


<< I don't believe that the US manufacturing base is being &quot;eroded&quot; because of foreign dumping. The US has been steadily moving towards a services-oriented economy mainly because we enjoy higher wages, lower prices and a higher standard of living >>

Well, I definitely disagree, and so do most of the experts (an excellent reference would be Stephan Sharf, former exec. at both Renault and Chrysler - he was one of the main men behind the rebuild of Chrysler, but retired awhile ago. Now he writes for many major publications and does manufacturing consulting work). But the real &quot;fly in the ointment&quot; of your thinking lies in your reference to our enjoying lower prices. Where do you think those lower prices come from, predominantly? From foreign competitors who are quite willing to sell their products here at cost or lower, just to get their feet in the door of the &quot;world's only true free-trade economy&quot;.


<< Can the Koreans make a direct competitor to the Accord and Camry and price it $5000 to $7000 cheaper??? You betcha! All because they have lower fixed capital costs, lower capital depreciation costs, lower labor costs and lower shipping costs (shipping is important--I advise everyone to read up on how Korean shipping conglomerates have helped Korea go global!) >>

Again I must disagree, and this time based on my own personal experience and access to real costs in Korea. You may not be aware but GM is currently negotiating to buy DAEWOO, and I have been heavily involved in this doing a lot of product costing and comparison for the product groups which I oversee. Yes, they do enjoy cost advantages in many areas, but nowhere near enough to lower the price of a car by 5-7K. More like 2-3K. And how do you think DAEWOO went bankrupt to begin with? Selling/dumping cars (among other things) under cost.


<< And about WWII being won on the strength of our manufacturing--that's not quite how it went. Our manufacturing expertise was built on the needs of WWII. We began supplying tanks, planes and ammunition to our allies before we even started fighting ourselves! >>

No, our manufacturing expertise was built on the base of the auto industry and the steel industry, well before WWII. There was once a saying ... &quot;As goes GM so goes the U.S. economy&quot;. But you missed the key point I made - mass production of these war supplies. A large part of the reason it took us 'till '43-44 to get really heavily involved in the war was the need for time to build up equip. and munitions, and the auto industry was the only ones with the knowhow and facilities to do it (mass production).


<< If we do get directly involved, I doubt it would take much time for manufacturing to pick up. >>

Not true. For example, the Willow Run assembly plant was built initially not for cars but to build planes (IIRC it was the B-17). Even at break neck pace it took about 18 months to get up and running production. You just can't build a large manufacturing plant/base overnight. And most plants that have been shuttered (closed) would take as long to bring back on line as it would to build new, mainly due to lack of maintenance. If a WWIII broke out, the war would be over long before we could crank up our manufacturing base again.

But my main point is being overlooked. The U.S. opens its economy to everyone all the while those same countries who have benefited by selling in to our economy prevent us from competing on fair/equal grounds in their countries. I am not advocating economic protectionism (like Pat Buchanon would), only FAIR free trade.

Sorry for the rant ...
 

stonerdave

Golden Member
Jul 26, 2000
1,110
0
0
i defintely see your point, Midnight. it's something i used to argue with my dad about a few years ago (esp. the tariffs put on american cars overseas) but recently i'd agree that american car companies are getting the shaft. it just seems like the Big 3 are losing ground, and unfortunately for all the wrong reasons.

Bottomline all we want is a level playing field. And all you N. Americans, esp. the young ones, had better take notice of this impropriety and help overturn it by way of your wallets (note: most foreign countries already discourage their citizens to not buy foreign products)

god, that's almost scary. it sounds just like him!
 
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