Is OBL right?

[cwjerome]

There's that "Imperial Hubris" again. Once again, "Preachers of Hate" is a better book analysis.

Let's see what exactly have we done to Muslims? (Besides influencing them with our culture...gasp, how evil!) We give more aid to Muslim countries than any other group. We trade with them. We've made some very very rich, and have helped raise living standards. We have defended many and saved others. Have we meddled? Yeah... like we have all over the world but there ain't international murder cabals from those other places. Have we helped Muslims act badly with other Muslims? Yeah... no worse than Muslims have treated themselves or are used to. What exactly has made us so evil? Having troops in Saudi Arabia? To defend them? At their request? And that gives some Islamic fascists the right to go on murder sprees? Wow, what a concept.

These ignorant, primitive, backwards, violent, hateful idiots need to get with the 21st Century... people don't need to go running around preaching hate and blowing people up just because they are offended.

 

[faiznne]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
There's that "Imperial Hubris" again. Once again, "Preachers of Hate" is a better book analysis.

Let's see what exactly have we done to Muslims? (Besides influencing them with our culture...gasp, how evil!) We give more aid to Muslim countries than any other group. We trade with them. We've made some very very rich, and have helped raise living standards. We have defended many and saved others. Have we meddled? Yeah... like we have all over the world but there ain't international murder cabals from those other places. Have we helped Muslims act badly with other Muslims? Yeah... no worse than Muslims have treated themselves or are used to. What exactly has made us so evil? Having troops in Saudi Arabia? To defend them? At their request? And that gives some Islamic fascists the right to go on murder sprees? Wow, what a concept.

These ignorant, primitive, backwards, violent, hateful idiots need to get with the 21st Century... people don't need to go running around preaching hate and blowing people up just because they are offended.

We do NOT give more aid to the Muslims, we give 1/3 of our foreign aid each year to ONE nation, and that country is Israel.

The amount of aid to Israel since the 1940s has been totaled to $90 billion (if you calculate inflation, in 2003 dollars, its $150 billion). The amount of aid to Muslim nations is a mere fraction of that. And even though Israel is the richest nation in the Middle East with one of the highest GDP per capita (even higher than most European countries), we still give $3 billion to Israel.

The other Muslim nations get fractions of this, in the millions only. The ONLY Muslim nation that gets more than a couple of million is Egypt, $2 billion a year, and that aid is only to guarantee that they do not attack Israel.

U.S. Aid to Israel 1948-Present
www.washington-report.org/us_aid_to_israel/index.htm

 

[DigDug]

It is the citizenry that is responsible for the government's actions. Of, For, and By the PEOPLE right? Wake up and smell the rotting garbage! Time to throw the bastards out and try some real democracy?

There's never been a better time for a revolution than NOW.

And I think its going to happen too. There's something in the collective consciousness that I feel seems to be heading in that direction. Will a voting fiasco trigger it? Who knows? I hope so. All I know is that when two presidential candidates are from the same secret society at Yale that only has about 400 living members at one time in the whole goddamned world, democracy has ceased to exist.

 

[Gen Stonewall]

Originally posted by: Todd33
Imperial Hubris pretty much echos what Osoma said. They are at war with us due to our policies abroad, specifically to Muslims. They do not just fight for no reason. They were against the Russian invasion of Afghanistan for the same reasons, they didn't turn to the US until we setup camp in their holy land in Saudi Arabia.

Garbage! Radical Muslims are waging war across the world, from Indonesia to the Philippines, to Russia, to central African countries, all of which have little to nothing to do with "imperial" American foreign policy. Osama is from that set; he kills because he is a satanic maniac. He does not, and never has had, any sort of justification for his actions, nor do any other radical militant Muslims have any for theirs.


|)

 

[Luck JF]

We need to protect Israel from Muslim aggression. Israel is our ally. We now have several other Muslim countrie's on our side as well. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan.
OBL is panicking because he knows he will not find refuge anywhere before too long.

 

[faiznne]

Originally posted by: Luck JF
We need to protect Israel from Muslim aggression. Israel is our ally. We now have several other Muslim countrie's on our side as well. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan.
OBL is panicking because he knows he will not find refuge anywhere before too long.

I agree that we need to protect Israel. They have a right to exist. But they are building settlements on illegally-occupied territory. And they are influencing our foreign policy to their advantage.

Israel has enough money to protect themselves, we don't need to keep on being a slave to Israel. Cut off the financial aid to Israel.

 

[imported_Condor]

Do you think for a moment that he would have taken this conciliatory approach if he weren?t backed into a corner? I don't think so. Previous administrations had tried to satisfy the ME wants. Clinton wanted his legacy to be peace in the Middle East and he offered up everything possible to only be rebuffed. I was paying attention during Bush's first months and despite the fact I think Michael Moore is a shoat hog that is lower than slime, he did make one point. Bush wasn't trying to go to war with anyone in those first months before 911. I don't think he was on vacation, but he wasn't planning anything but an easy term. Everyone that we have dealt with in the ME has been treacherous. Do you think for a minute OBL will be anything else? All he wants is enough of a breather to rebuild and execute another attack. It has always been folly to trust anyone from that area of the world, and we have bled all too often from the effort.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Fvck obl we don't need his murdering self telling us bush is bad news he needs to hide some more and worry about his own ass -we got it covered.
If Kerry does win the left and right are going to make damn sure he holds up to his promise of tracking down the funda-headcase dog he is and put him to justice..

He has never promised to do anything, but to do it better. Liberals are going to defend him no matter what he does, until it is their blood running in the streets and then they will as always, beg the boys chained in the basements of the Conservatives to bail their butts out once again.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: zzzz

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: zzzz

Originally posted by: nick1985
i want to know what all the people saying bush/cheney planned the attack have to say.

so you believe OBL?

i think i got my answer

How so? I dont believe that bush planned the attack. I am just asking whether you believe OBL. If he comes out and says "Al Quaida wants Bush to win", would you believe it?

These so called terrorists (I disagree with the term, as the attacks generate rage, not terror) are their own worst enemies. I can't count the times that someone has started to do something on their side just the week before they attack them. The Spanish tried and made cowards of themselves. To what effect? Just three weeks ago, an attack was thwarted in Spain.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Fvck obl we don't need his murdering self telling us bush is bad news he needs to hide some more and worry about his own ass -we got it covered.
If Kerry does win the left and right are going to make damn sure he holds up to his promise of tracking down the funda-headcase dog he is and put him to justice..

This is an odd wrinkle in the space-time continuim because I was thinking this exact same thing today. If Kerry does win, he has made promise after promise after promise to go after the terrorists hard-core. He damn well better hold up to those promises.

He simply won't! You liberals won't call him on it, but will defend his reasons. He may try to arrest them or something, but he has no stomach for the fight. I think that last Purple Heart ruined him, if he was worth a da_m_n before that. I'm not convinced he ever was.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
It is the citizenry that is responsible for the government's actions. Of, For, and By the PEOPLE right? Wake up and smell the rotting garbage! Time to throw the bastards out and try some real democracy?

Seems like if what you are saying is true, we would have been safe under Clinton. Three attacks by Islamic extremeist make it not so. We tried that and all it got us was an international reputation for being weak and encouraged the attack on 911. The extremest thought that we would follow pattern and try to gather the attackers into court for a train while other cells attacked. Good plan, except Bush isn't a lawyer! He attacked OSB's support area.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: faiznne

Originally posted by: cwjerome
There's that "Imperial Hubris" again. Once again, "Preachers of Hate" is a better book analysis.

Let's see what exactly have we done to Muslims? (Besides influencing them with our culture...gasp, how evil!) We give more aid to Muslim countries than any other group. We trade with them. We've made some very very rich, and have helped raise living standards. We have defended many and saved others. Have we meddled? Yeah... like we have all over the world but there ain't international murder cabals from those other places. Have we helped Muslims act badly with other Muslims? Yeah... no worse than Muslims have treated themselves or are used to. What exactly has made us so evil? Having troops in Saudi Arabia? To defend them? At their request? And that gives some Islamic fascists the right to go on murder sprees? Wow, what a concept.

These ignorant, primitive, backwards, violent, hateful idiots need to get with the 21st Century... people don't need to go running around preaching hate and blowing people up just because they are offended.

We do NOT give more aid to the Muslims, we give 1/3 of our foreign aid each year to ONE nation, and that country is Israel.

The amount of aid to Israel since the 1940s has been totaled to $90 billion (if you calculate inflation, in 2003 dollars, its $150 billion). The amount of aid to Muslim nations is a mere fraction of that. And even though Israel is the richest nation in the Middle East with one of the highest GDP per capita (even higher than most European countries), we still give $3 billion to Israel.

The other Muslim nations get fractions of this, in the millions only. The ONLY Muslim nation that gets more than a couple of million is Egypt, $2 billion a year, and that aid is only to guarantee that they do not attack Israel.

U.S. Aid to Israel 1948-Present
www.washington-report.org/us_aid_to_israel/index.htm

We did give them petro technology, making many of them wealthy beyond their wildest dreams. Plenty capable of helping their own. They didn't!

 

[ajf3]

It is the citizenry that is responsible for the government's actions. Of, For, and By the PEOPLE right? Wake up and smell the rotting garbage! Time to throw the bastards out and try some real democracy?

Psst... we're not a democracy. Your post is a perfect example of why we're not...

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: judasmachine
It is the citizenry that is responsible for the government's actions. Of, For, and By the PEOPLE right? Wake up and smell the rotting garbage! Time to throw the bastards out and try some real democracy?

Seems like if what you are saying is true, we would have been safe under Clinton. Three attacks by Islamic extremeist make it not so. We tried that and all it got us was an international reputation for being weak and encouraged the attack on 911. The extremest thought that we would follow pattern and try to gather the attackers into court for a train while other cells attacked. Good plan, except Bush isn't a lawyer! He attacked OSB's support area.

What makes you think I support Clinton or Kerry. Get your head out of the sand, I may not support your guy but that doesn't make me a Kerry supporter. The world is not just black and white my friend. When I say, "Throw the bastards out...." I mean all the oligarchal authoritarian bastards, both Rs and Ds.

ajf3
You like having a federal babysitter? Anyone knows this isn't a real democracy. What about my post makes you think I (personally) am incapable of self-determination? I honestly feel like I'm sitting watching the two worst teams at a sporting event with plenty of drunken hooligans about.

Generic Disclaimer
Also, I don't understand why everythinks I support Kerry. I may not hate him as much as Bush, but this doesn't mean I'll vote for him. They both can rot for all I care. This election is like watching two irrelevent teams go at each other, with plenty of drunken hooligans about.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: faiznne

Originally posted by: cwjerome
There's that "Imperial Hubris" again. Once again, "Preachers of Hate" is a better book analysis.

Let's see what exactly have we done to Muslims? (Besides influencing them with our culture...gasp, how evil!) We give more aid to Muslim countries than any other group. We trade with them. We've made some very very rich, and have helped raise living standards. We have defended many and saved others. Have we meddled? Yeah... like we have all over the world but there ain't international murder cabals from those other places. Have we helped Muslims act badly with other Muslims? Yeah... no worse than Muslims have treated themselves or are used to. What exactly has made us so evil? Having troops in Saudi Arabia? To defend them? At their request? And that gives some Islamic fascists the right to go on murder sprees? Wow, what a concept.

These ignorant, primitive, backwards, violent, hateful idiots need to get with the 21st Century... people don't need to go running around preaching hate and blowing people up just because they are offended.

We do NOT give more aid to the Muslims, we give 1/3 of our foreign aid each year to ONE nation, and that country is Israel.

The amount of aid to Israel since the 1940s has been totaled to $90 billion (if you calculate inflation, in 2003 dollars, its $150 billion). The amount of aid to Muslim nations is a mere fraction of that. And even though Israel is the richest nation in the Middle East with one of the highest GDP per capita (even higher than most European countries), we still give $3 billion to Israel.

The other Muslim nations get fractions of this, in the millions only. The ONLY Muslim nation that gets more than a couple of million is Egypt, $2 billion a year, and that aid is only to guarantee that they do not attack Israel.

U.S. Aid to Israel 1948-Present
www.washington-report.org/us_aid_to_israel/index.htm

We did give them petro technology, making many of them wealthy beyond their wildest dreams. Plenty capable of helping their own. They didn't!

They as in the regimes that are hated by the peoples of that area of the world ??? Bin Laden and his gang appeal to the common Ali on the street who hates the royal sheiks and their lavish 1000 dollar a night hooker and drug filled life styles. A good example of this is that the royal family of Saudi Arabia who is hated by both left wing and right wing groups in that nation. Bin Laden is following the lead of the Islamic Revolution which swept Iran via infiltrating and merging with pro-democracy groups and other political groups popular with the students and disaffected young men and women around the middle-east just like the Ayatollah did in Iran. He is using religion in the same fashion to gather support amongst these disenfranchised political groups inorder to oust the dictators and monarchies of these countries who are friendly towards the US or at least have a common enemy with our nation.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Luck JF
We need to protect Israel from Muslim aggression. Israel is our ally. We now have several other Muslim countrie's on our side as well. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan.
OBL is panicking because he knows he will not find refuge anywhere before too long.

Saudi Arabia is on the verge of a social and political civil war. The royals there are hated by the common man on the street. Pakistan is a nuclear infest powder keg waiting to blow up and all that is needed is one well placed sniper's bullet or suicide bomber. Their ultra secret intelligence agency in that nation should not be trusted at all as there are many in the agency who have been documented as having sympathies to Bin Laden's cause.

The only thing that Karzai controls in Afghanistan is Kabul the rest of the nation is just as lawless as it was before we got there. Iraq is just a big freaking mess. As soon as we pull our troops out of that nation any government we set up will crumble into dust. If anything OBL knows we are in a bind and he is just poking us to see how we react. Also if you think anyone in those nations you named are willing to take a bullet for Israel then you are sadly mistaken my friend. While we have the begrudging cooperation of the political leaders in those nations it does not translate into the support of the common man or women on the street in those countries.

 

[0marTheZealot]

OBL's message is a mixed bag. It presents a catch-22 in that we can't stop interfering but we must.

While some of his message rings true, much of it is typical OBL. It should be noted that OBL never really invoked the Palestine issue until lately. To me, OBL wants the restoration of the Ottoman or eariler dynasties, or an Islamic rule across the entire muslim world (which I am not against, as long as he's not leader nor any of his cronies). That demand directly interferes with our policies laid out 30 years ago.

I honestly don't think OBL would be happy if we did everything we asked. He'd simply find another reason to attack us. However, our unilateral support of Israel, of the corrupt dictatorships and of oil rich sheiks and emirs should cease and desist. We truly don't want whats best in that country. If we did, we wouldn't have toppled democracies and installed dictatorships in their places.

 

[0roo0roo]

its just bs to make himself seem sane before he justifies another attrocity. like when the kidnappers demand release of women prisoners...they know very well they just are having a little terror theater before they hack some guys head off.

bah, and bush said osama was irrelevant. good job letting him get away... war on the cheap grr.

and in this nuclear world with easy international transport, we cannot wait for regions to "catch up" or "evolve" at their own pace. its a bullsh*t arguement. the saudi's let us in their country to help with their oil precisely because we had a hands off approach. why do you think foreigners live in separate compounds. they kept their society pure, untouched as much as possible. and that resulted in what? 19 suicide plane hijackers that murder 3000?

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: bamacre
story

Is Osama right?
[snip]

You made this way to complicated. Its not about what Osame thinks. It is about what he is capable of understanding.

It is about what I think, and I think that one thing Osama will understand is a bullet in the back of his head....

 

[Tab]

Great interesting post, I don't agree with all of it but I agree with a lot of it. :thumbsup: