Is OVERTIME a big part of our nation's financial problems?

[Deleted member 4644]

Many conservatives say they don't like the minimum wage because it reduces the total employment in the society (in theory).

Recently, I have read articles in the LA Times and other LA papers about the teachers union, the firefighters and the prison guard union.

The articles can be summed up where the unions protect brutally incompetent/criminal/lazy employees. The employees want overtime, so the unions make sure there are not enough firefighters etc. So they have to pay overtime.

In LA, the average firefighter gets paid something like $120,000 with 30,000+ of that overtime. (If we hired more FFs and paid them normal wages, we could have MORE FFs for the same price.)

The CA Prison Guard lobby is widely accepted to be THE strongest lobby in the state.

CA is BILLIONS of dollars in debt.

We have THOUSANDS of people who are clamoring to be prison guards/firefighters etc.

Is it fair to say that overtime pay is helping to kill this state?

I think unions are good in SOME situations. Stupid parents often try to fire/attack/harass teachers because their kids are too dumb to learn. Stupid criminals often try to place blame on innocent/good cops. But shit.. this $$ stuff is killing our country/state.

Agree/Disagree/Discuss

 

[Hacp]

Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

 

[JS80]

OT is a drop in the effin bucket.

 

[jpeyton]

Abuse by government employees of overtime is commonplace. A quick audit of any PD or FD in the nation and you'll find somebody abusing the system. We need to patch the loopholes.

 

[Siddhartha]

Are you saying reduce overtime hours or overtime pay?

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Hacp
Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

are you seriously suggesting that an 8 hour workday is too little? If anything, its probably excessively long in many types of work and leads to poor productivity.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Hacp
Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

are you seriously suggesting that an 8 hour workday is too little? If anything, its probably excessively long in many types of work and leads to poor productivity.

He wants us to be competitive with the so-called "Third World." He admires the efficiency of sweatshops and slavery.

 

[Deleted member 4644]

I think I am saying reduce overtime hours, but hiring more workers. But possibly reduce overtime pay also?

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
I think I am saying reduce overtime hours, but hiring more workers. But possibly reduce overtime pay also?

When people suggest that other people are earning too much money, I recommend that they take a pay cut first and then get back to me

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
I think I am saying reduce overtime hours, but hiring more workers. But possibly reduce overtime pay also?

I agree that in SOME cases, agencies should hire more people to reduce the overtime, but hell, as long as we're just cutting costs, let's do away with benefits...that you'd have to pay to those new employees on top of their salaries...the fringe benefits package costs a company/government agency big bux...and are usually a significant part of a company's payroll costs.

Another big hole in your plan...if a fireman is working on an active fire...say in the middle of a burning building...does he get in his firetruck and go home at the end of his 8 hour shift? After all, he didn't drive his personal vehicle to the fire...

Same with cops. IF they're in the middle of a bank robbery some afternoon, do they just say, "OK fellas, shift's over, let's go home and let 2nd shift take it from here?


Yes, some government agencies have people who abuse the overtime system...but even hiring more people isn't gonna fix the entire problem.

Another huge cost to local cities is paying sick leave when someone retires. In many cases, the final payout of sick leave is easily in the 6 figures. The local paper's been doing a bunch of stories on that very problem.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
I think I am saying reduce overtime hours, but hiring more workers. But possibly reduce overtime pay also?

How does that solve the financial problem? More govt workers = more union power.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Hacp
Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

That's no problem at all. Just heavily tax or even ban outright imports from nations that participate in worker exploitation. Also, prohibit citizenship to anyone who maintains business interests outside the country. If you want the benefits America offers you MUST endure the costs of that citizenship.

The answer isn't to fuck our own citizens to make us equally screwed, it's to force other nations to raise their standard of living and status of their citizens to be equal to ours. When that happens, we'll still be on equal footing economically and productivity-wise, but we won't have reduced the people to slavery in order to accomplish it.

 

[Acanthus]

A lot of companies without unions are mismanaged with overtime pay as well.

An example would be down here in ohio. A honda parts supplier cut the pay of all employees by 15% and laid off 20% of its workforce.

They then began offering overtime and doubletime pay on sundays again, which had been cut in the past...

It's a large net gain in employment cost for them, and the workers now HAVE TO work overtime to get a decent paycheck. (this is a non-union plant)

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Hacp
Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

That's no problem at all. Just heavily tax or even ban outright imports from nations that participate in worker exploitation. Also, prohibit citizenship to anyone who maintains business interests outside the country. If you want the benefits America offers you MUST endure the costs of that citizenship.

The answer isn't to fuck our own citizens to make us equally screwed, it's to force other nations to raise their standard of living and status of their citizens to be equal to ours. When that happens, we'll still be on equal footing economically and productivity-wise, but we won't have reduced the people to slavery in order to accomplish it.

I have thought this as well. A 100% tax on china, etc until their wages, safety procedures, and child labor laws would sort out things pretty damn quick.

The downside is you are "hurting" developing nations by doing this.

 

[gingermeggs]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Hacp
Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

That's no problem at all. Just heavily tax or even ban outright imports from nations that participate in worker exploitation. Also, prohibit citizenship to anyone who maintains business interests outside the country. If you want the benefits America offers you MUST endure the costs of that citizenship.

The answer isn't to fuck our own citizens to make us equally screwed, it's to force other nations to raise their standard of living and status of their citizens to be equal to ours. When that happens, we'll still be on equal footing economically and productivity-wise, but we won't have reduced the people to slavery in order to accomplish it.

+1 and you could include some environmental standards also- make it part of a world trade agreement- with a minimum wage and a 40hour week.

 

[gingermeggs]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Hacp
Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

That's no problem at all. Just heavily tax or even ban outright imports from nations that participate in worker exploitation. Also, prohibit citizenship to anyone who maintains business interests outside the country. If you want the benefits America offers you MUST endure the costs of that citizenship.

The answer isn't to fuck our own citizens to make us equally screwed, it's to force other nations to raise their standard of living and status of their citizens to be equal to ours. When that happens, we'll still be on equal footing economically and productivity-wise, but we won't have reduced the people to slavery in order to accomplish it.

I have thought this as well. A 100% tax on china, etc until their wages, safety procedures, and child labor laws would sort out things pretty damn quick.

The downside is you are "hurting" developing nations by doing this.

who exactly would be hurt? exploitative multi-national corps who moved their production to places like china and india? companies like nike and the slavery rackets they operate in the 3rd world. More needs to be done to strip the excessive wealth from top end of western societies, to restore democracy and freedom of choice to the majority of people.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Hacp
Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

That's no problem at all. Just heavily tax or even ban outright imports from nations that participate in worker exploitation. Also, prohibit citizenship to anyone who maintains business interests outside the country. If you want the benefits America offers you MUST endure the costs of that citizenship.

The answer isn't to fuck our own citizens to make us equally screwed, it's to force other nations to raise their standard of living and status of their citizens to be equal to ours. When that happens, we'll still be on equal footing economically and productivity-wise, but we won't have reduced the people to slavery in order to accomplish it.

Factor in COL and demand for factory jobs and you'll see that they aren't being exploited at all. They're just willing to work longer and harder cause their poor people are actually skinny(as opposed to poor people in the US, who are almost always fat).

Unions+minimum wage+overtime really kills prices in the US. In order to prevent companies from outsourcing good factory jobs, the US needs to adapt to the global economy.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Hacp
Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

That's no problem at all. Just heavily tax or even ban outright imports from nations that participate in worker exploitation. Also, prohibit citizenship to anyone who maintains business interests outside the country. If you want the benefits America offers you MUST endure the costs of that citizenship.

The answer isn't to fuck our own citizens to make us equally screwed, it's to force other nations to raise their standard of living and status of their citizens to be equal to ours. When that happens, we'll still be on equal footing economically and productivity-wise, but we won't have reduced the people to slavery in order to accomplish it.

Factor in COL and demand for factory jobs and you'll see that they aren't being exploited at all. They're just willing to work longer and harder cause their poor people are actually skinny(as opposed to poor people in the US, who are almost always fat).

Unions+minimum wage+overtime really kills prices in the US. In order to prevent companies from outsourcing good factory jobs, the US needs to adapt to the global economy.

It IS exploitation, just exploitation they're willing to endure, or unable to end. It was like that here too for a while, until the people came together and formed unions to end it...and the outbreaks of violence forced government involvement and regulation.

Not gonna happen. Try to treat American citizens like the citizens in other nations get treated and you've got Revolution 2.0 inside of a week. We will not stand for exploitation, period. That removes your option from the table and leaves either dealing with the disparity, or getting other nations to improve conditions.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
I think I am saying reduce overtime hours, but hiring more workers. But possibly reduce overtime pay also?

I agree that in SOME cases, agencies should hire more people to reduce the overtime, but hell, as long as we're just cutting costs, let's do away with benefits...that you'd have to pay to those new employees on top of their salaries...the fringe benefits package costs a company/government agency big bux...and are usually a significant part of a company's payroll costs.

Another big hole in your plan...if a fireman is working on an active fire...say in the middle of a burning building...does he get in his firetruck and go home at the end of his 8 hour shift? After all, he didn't drive his personal vehicle to the fire...

Same with cops. IF they're in the middle of a bank robbery some afternoon, do they just say, "OK fellas, shift's over, let's go home and let 2nd shift take it from here?


Yes, some government agencies have people who abuse the overtime system...but even hiring more people isn't gonna fix the entire problem.

Another huge cost to local cities is paying sick leave when someone retires. In many cases, the final payout of sick leave is easily in the 6 figures. The local paper's been doing a bunch of stories on that very problem.

Stop making too much sense, that doesn't go over well here.

 

[MovingTarget]

I wouldn't say that overtime is that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. There seem to be two schools of thought when it comes to OT: 1. If you have to schedule overtime, you are short-staffed or 2. If you don't have to get people working OT then you have too many employees. This gets to be a real pain for industrial workers when management gets rotated through at any particular plant. You really have to pick your poison. Having too many employees will decrease OT pay, but you run the risk of paying them to slack. If you run a lean ship when it comes to staffing, you run the risk of letting OT payouts get out of hand, or finding yourself unable to get certain activities performed when necessary due to workload. It really depends on the business that you are trying to staff. The modern business environment has way bigger issues to deal with...

 

[cubeless]

in jobs like fire and police, where disability claims are high, ot would seem to be potentially problematic since it could be a contributing factor to new claims... a tired ff or po is more likely to make mistakes/get hurt... and the disability system soaks up way more $$$ than the ot problem...

 

[Vette73]

Unions only have as much power as you give them.

Police/FF/etc? can't strike by law. So their power is only what Admins give them. Also you can fire a union person like any other. The problem comes when you get lazy and/or just incompetent management/Administrators.

I do HR type work for the Fed gov. The union tries lots of things but we in HR follow the Regs and also the contract. We fire union people all the time. We also do it well enough that the majority of the time they stay fired.

So this ?Unions are the great evil and cause of all problems?? BS is just that, BS. I know I see it firsthand.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Well, my state's legislature's "special sessions," "emergency sessions," and "extended sessions" are certainly a drain on my state's treasury.

 

[Balt]

It's hard to say. On one hand, it's ridiculous for overtime to be a consistent and substantial part of someone's monthly/bi-weekly/whatever paycheck. On the other hand, every new employee you hire is a large increase in costs beyond their salary. In addition to the added paperwork, there are the costs of benefits and such that have to be considered.

So I guess it largely depends on the circumstance.

 

[rpanic]

I think the overtime would be cheaper. If you factor in things like pensions, and benefits that don?t increase with overtime there are a lot of savings to be made with just paying the OT instead of hiring a new employee. Plus with FF sometimes it is unavoidable to have OT will with being on a 24hr cycle and dealing with emergencies, 20% of the overtime I believe comes from vacation and holidays because of the 24hr cycle.

I am not a FF or in the public sector but I have had a few years that I made 30k+ overtime and it was not a walk in the park and there is no way I could do it now that I have kids.