Is OVERTIME a big part of our nation's financial problems?

[Oceandevi]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Hacp
Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

are you seriously suggesting that an 8 hour workday is too little? If anything, its probably excessively long in many types of work and leads to poor productivity.

He wants us to be competitive with the so-called "Third World." He admires the efficiency of sweatshops and slavery.

Change we can believe in.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
I think I am saying reduce overtime hours, but hiring more workers. But possibly reduce overtime pay also?

I agree that in SOME cases, agencies should hire more people to reduce the overtime, but hell, as long as we're just cutting costs, let's do away with benefits...that you'd have to pay to those new employees on top of their salaries...the fringe benefits package costs a company/government agency big bux...and are usually a significant part of a company's payroll costs.

Another big hole in your plan...if a fireman is working on an active fire...say in the middle of a burning building...does he get in his firetruck and go home at the end of his 8 hour shift? After all, he didn't drive his personal vehicle to the fire...

Same with cops. IF they're in the middle of a bank robbery some afternoon, do they just say, "OK fellas, shift's over, let's go home and let 2nd shift take it from here?


Yes, some government agencies have people who abuse the overtime system...but even hiring more people isn't gonna fix the entire problem.

Another huge cost to local cities is paying sick leave when someone retires. In many cases, the final payout of sick leave is easily in the 6 figures. The local paper's been doing a bunch of stories on that very problem.

There shouldn't be an overtime. They should be working for a salary. If you get the job done, you get paid. If you are incompetent, you get the axe.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
I think I am saying reduce overtime hours, but hiring more workers. But possibly reduce overtime pay also?

but hiring more workers would also entail more health care expenses, administrative costs, etc... it could have been reasoned out somewhere that paying 5 employees overtime costs less than providing healthcare + salary for 10 employees.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Hacp

There shouldn't be an overtime. They should be working for a salary. If you get the job done, you get paid. If you are incompetent, you get the axe.

Not get paid overtime? FUCK YOU.

YOU can be a salary slave if you so choose, but I doubt you'll ever get cops and firefighters to accept that...unless the salary is set extraordinarily high.

 

[Pliablemoose]

I interact with CA prison guards on a daily basis, they make insane OT, met a guy last week that make $160K last year. The OT they earn is insane.

However, it's not the union's fault, these folk have to take prisoners all over hell for health care, and then baby sit them, and it's 2 guards for each prisoner. CA's prison health care is under federal judicial control and it's unlikely the federal courts will allow CA to manage it's own health care for prisoners for a long time.

CA is also paying top dollar for prison health care, you-all wouldn't believe the shit they approve, the prisoners get much better health care than the average citizen. http://www.sacbee.com/capitola...nia/story/1615188.html

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I interact with CA prison guards on a daily basis, they make insane OT, met a guy last week that make $160K last year. The OT they earn is insane.

However, it's not the union's fault, these folk have to take prisoners all over hell for health care, and then baby sit them, and it's 2 guards for each prisoner. CA's prison health care is under federal judicial control and it's unlikely the federal courts will allow CA to manage it's own health care for prisoners for a long time.

CA is also paying top dollar for prison health care, you-all wouldn't believe the shit they approve, the prisoners get much better health care than the average citizen. http://www.sacbee.com/capitola...nia/story/1615188.html

I realize this thread is not solely about prison guards getting overtime. Your post should make people think that it is often far more advantageous to correct the root of the problem than nibble away at it's periphery.

Making prison more of a deterrent would save far more than cutting overtime or salaries of prison guards.

The can of worms is now officially open.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Hacp
Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

That's no problem at all. Just heavily tax or even ban outright imports from nations that participate in worker exploitation. Also, prohibit citizenship to anyone who maintains business interests outside the country. If you want the benefits America offers you MUST endure the costs of that citizenship.

The answer isn't to fuck our own citizens to make us equally screwed, it's to force other nations to raise their standard of living and status of their citizens to be equal to ours. When that happens, we'll still be on equal footing economically and productivity-wise, but we won't have reduced the people to slavery in order to accomplish it.

Factor in COL and demand for factory jobs and you'll see that they aren't being exploited at all. They're just willing to work longer and harder cause their poor people are actually skinny(as opposed to poor people in the US, who are almost always fat).

Unions+minimum wage+overtime really kills prices in the US. In order to prevent companies from outsourcing good factory jobs, the US needs to adapt to the global economy.

Cheap food makes people fat. Its not like the U.S. poor are getting fat on high quality fresh fruits, vegetables, and meat and bakery fresh bread.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
I think I am saying reduce overtime hours, but hiring more workers. But possibly reduce overtime pay also?

but hiring more workers would also entail more health care expenses, administrative costs, etc... it could have been reasoned out somewhere that paying 5 employees overtime costs less than providing healthcare + salary for 10 employees.

Yet another reason to go for Universal Health Care. It would provide incentive for employers to hire more workers instead of paying overtime and would reduce stress on existing employees by not having them work OT.

 

[Moonbeam]

Americans work harder than the rest of developed nations and enjoy a lesser standard of living than many. But we believe that only by suffering can we deserve anything because we're idiots.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Hacp

There shouldn't be an overtime. They should be working for a salary. If you get the job done, you get paid. If you are incompetent, you get the axe.

Not get paid overtime? FUCK YOU.

YOU can be a salary slave if you so choose, but I doubt you'll ever get cops and firefighters to accept that...unless the salary is set extraordinarily high.

In the matter of public safety IIRC the FLSA sets a standard of up to 168 hours per 30 day period for police and fire personnel.

In lieu of "overtime" (using some of the scenarios posted here) a public safety officer would receive *comp time* at a 1.5x rate with the accumulation of hours being 'capped' (typically at the length of a standard shift). The comp time would then be a *required* day off (with pay) taken within the next 30 day period.

I don't know what they are these days but standard rotations around here used to be 12 hour shifts: 2 days on - 2 days off - 3 days on - 3 days off.

The are a few states (California, for one) that have a 'daily overtime standard' where this would not apply.

Most cops like it. You only work 15 days in any given 30 day period and are guaranteed a certain number of weekends off. It's even better for firefighters who do 24-hour rotations. Some cops just like working nights - some just like working days - and having at least 3 days off before a 'swing' from day to night rotation (when necessary) seems to help the transition.

Comp time is sometimes given to cops for their scheduled 'court' time, too, but most guys know their shifts well in advance and that can help in scheduling. *Comp* (AFAIK) time is only available for state and local gov'ts - I don't believe it's legal in the private sector. They have to pay time and a half.

 

[Napalm]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Hacp
Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

That's no problem at all. Just heavily tax or even ban outright imports from nations that participate in worker exploitation. Also, prohibit citizenship to anyone who maintains business interests outside the country. If you want the benefits America offers you MUST endure the costs of that citizenship.

The answer isn't to fuck our own citizens to make us equally screwed, it's to force other nations to raise their standard of living and status of their citizens to be equal to ours. When that happens, we'll still be on equal footing economically and productivity-wise, but we won't have reduced the people to slavery in order to accomplish it.

I have thought this as well. A 100% tax on china, etc until their wages, safety procedures, and child labor laws would sort out things pretty damn quick.

The downside is you are "hurting" developing nations by doing this.

Yeah, there's an idea... You do realize that China is essentially bankrolling the lion's share of US debt, don't you? Imposing any kind of duties on China would ensure them calling in their loans and bankrupting the US overnight - which is why this hasn't happened... "Well then, we'll print more money!!!" Another great idea that would devalue your currency to near zero and generate record inflation overnight...

There are no simple solutions - the only thing that is simple is being a critic...

N

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Napalm

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Hacp
Overtime is a problem, but not the only problem. Unions drive up the costs of labor which encourages companies to move the jobs overseas. The minimum wage is also something we need to tackle. It should really be a minimum salary instead of a minimum wage. Eight hours if frankly too short to be competitive with 3rd world countries in terms of manual labor jobs. Saftey regulation and taxes also increase costs for business discourages them from hiring American.

That's no problem at all. Just heavily tax or even ban outright imports from nations that participate in worker exploitation. Also, prohibit citizenship to anyone who maintains business interests outside the country. If you want the benefits America offers you MUST endure the costs of that citizenship.

The answer isn't to fuck our own citizens to make us equally screwed, it's to force other nations to raise their standard of living and status of their citizens to be equal to ours. When that happens, we'll still be on equal footing economically and productivity-wise, but we won't have reduced the people to slavery in order to accomplish it.

I have thought this as well. A 100% tax on china, etc until their wages, safety procedures, and child labor laws would sort out things pretty damn quick.

The downside is you are "hurting" developing nations by doing this.

Yeah, there's an idea... You do realize that China is essentially bankrolling the lion's share of US debt, don't you? Imposing any kind of duties on China would ensure them calling in their loans and bankrupting the US overnight - which is why this hasn't happened... "Well then, we'll print more money!!!" Another great idea that would devalue your currency to near zero and generate record inflation overnight...

There are no simple solutions - the only thing that is simple is being a critic...

N

It is not bankrolling the lion's share of US debt. Furthermore, China can't just 'call in' its loans and even if it somehow could it wouldn't bankrupt the US.

Foreign debt is about 25% of US debt, and China owns about 50% of that. So... China 'bankrolls' about 12.5% of US debt.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
I think I am saying reduce overtime hours, but hiring more workers. But possibly reduce overtime pay also?

It would seem to make sense.

Overtime = 1 employee being paid at 150% of normal wage for the same output.

Two employees = 2 employees being paid at 200% of normal wage for double the output.


Overtime as an occasional thing sounds like it's fine - you reward an employees dedication to the company with a little extra money.
Overtime as a constant way of doing business is inefficient. Hire part time help to pick up the slack.

 

[Falloutboy]

one thing to look at, paying someone for 50-60 hours of work is often times cheaper then paying 2 employees do to benefits, and insurance to the company and such. also ad to the fact a good employee can often do the work of 2 average employees in that 50-60 hours

 

[Stunt]

This is a very complicated issue and would take more than just a discussion board like this to figure it out. I am a maintenance manager at a factory and overtime is used in my department for the following reasons.
1) Work not able to be completed in normal work hours - it's more efficient to schedule an electrician and mechanic to make improvements to a line than do it during the week and having production on the weekend.
2) Employee skill set - In some cases employees have more experience, different skills and hiring another person, training and developing adds enormous costs to the company.
3) The extra work does not add up to a full person's worth of work. All jobs have a certain percentage utilization and I'd rather have 50hours a week out of one person than two at 25hours.
4) Added pay - With a union shop, wages are set in stone where unskilled workers make way more than market rate where as the skilled workers (less numerous) get marginally less than market rate and will leave if some overtime is not available.

Also consider the following...
Wage plus fringe (benefits) for a worker is pushing $50/hr at my factory, yet they get paid $24/hr. Benefits do not go up with overtime, just wage. Therefore it costs $12/hr extra for overtime but if i brought another person into the mix, i'd pay $50/hr since i have to pay his pension, dental, medical etc as well.
I think productivity is more with overtime because you are creating more with less people...GDP per capita increases...

 

[ProfJohn]

The problem is public unions that have a monopoly on what they do.

There is no pressure at all for them to keep wages and benefits reasonable

 

[piasabird]

Hiring more people means paying more benefits like insurance and retirement. It is a two edged sword.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
I think I am saying reduce overtime hours, but hiring more workers. But possibly reduce overtime pay also?

It would seem to make sense.

Overtime = 1 employee being paid at 150% of normal wage for the same output.

Two employees = 2 employees being paid at 200% of normal wage for double the output.


Overtime as an occasional thing sounds like it's fine - you reward an employees dedication to the company with a little extra money.
Overtime as a constant way of doing business is inefficient. Hire part time help to pick up the slack.

There is a big problem with your calculation.
The person doing the overtime is being paid for double the output, not the same.
If the person is being paid overtime for the same output, then the executives of that particular company must be a moron.

1 person doing (8hrs+8hrs) is about the same as 2 people doing 8 hours each. Output isn't any different in most cases.
In one case the company pays 150%. In the later, the company pays 200%(it's even much more if you include benefits like 401k, sick/vacation days, health/dental/vision/life/disability insurance, stock options, bonuses and many others.)

The person working the overtime shift doesn't get double the amount of 401k, sick/vacation days, health/dental/vision/life/disability insurance, stock options, bonuses and many other perks that hiring two different workers would get.

The best way to solve this overtime issue is to hire more part-time workers, NOT full-time workers.
Learn from Wal-Mart.

*EDIT*
I agree with your last statement.
You tripped over a large rock in your analysis, but you seem to have rolled over and caught yourself in the end.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: Stunt
This is a very complicated issue and would take more than just a discussion board like this to figure it out. I am a maintenance manager at a factory and overtime is used in my department for the following reasons.
1) Work not able to be completed in normal work hours - it's more efficient to schedule an electrician and mechanic to make improvements to a line than do it during the week and having production on the weekend.
2) Employee skill set - In some cases employees have more experience, different skills and hiring another person, training and developing adds enormous costs to the company.
3) The extra work does not add up to a full person's worth of work. All jobs have a certain percentage utilization and I'd rather have 50hours a week out of one person than two at 25hours.
4) Added pay - With a union shop, wages are set in stone where unskilled workers make way more than market rate where as the skilled workers (less numerous) get marginally less than market rate and will leave if some overtime is not available.

Also consider the following...
Wage plus fringe (benefits) for a worker is pushing $50/hr at my factory, yet they get paid $24/hr. Benefits do not go up with overtime, just wage. Therefore it costs $12/hr extra for overtime but if i brought another person into the mix, i'd pay $50/hr since i have to pay his pension, dental, medical etc as well.
I think productivity is more with overtime because you are creating more with less people...GDP per capita increases...

You seem to be one of the few people who has actually done the math in this thread rather than jumping on the simple-minded bandwagon solution of "hire more workers".
I have no doubt that your business would be successful.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Well, my state's legislature's "special sessions," "emergency sessions," and "extended sessions" are certainly a drain on my state's treasury.

Solution: All government workers should be paid salary.

 

[Hacp]

Who says we need to give health benefits? Only unions do. Thats why they are slowly killing the American economy. Take away overtime from the fatcat union workers and hire some of the millions of Americans who are out of jobs. I'm sure they'll love to find work, any work.

 

[bamacre]

Yeah, overtime, that is why the economy is in trouble. :laugh:

 

[manowar821]

No. Try artificial inflation of the economy.

also:

Originally posted by: bamacre
Yeah, overtime, that is why the economy is in trouble. :laugh:

 

[Fear No Evil]

The economy is in trouble because of DEMOCRATS.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
The economy is in trouble because of DEMOCRATS.

You aren't playing with a full deck, are you?