Is poverty voluntary?

[Naer]

Seems like the right wing mentality is that being poor is somehow a choice and not an issue of circumstance. The progressive liberal socialist stance that i take recognizes that poverty is violence of the worst kind and to alleiviate that requires thorough control of scarcity and that equates wealth redistribution. An untrained propagandized mind will say that is communism but they fail to realize that soviet communism had a heirarchical brutal pyrimid structural and the brutality wasnt/isnt a result of wealth redistribution but the general violent culture of the time or place. Marx was right all along about capitalism and i think this calls for an updated form of communism. The ecology of the esrth, stability of the society, and the sustainability of the human race depend on it.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Seems like the right wing mentality is that being poor is somehow a choice and not an issue of circumstance.

In some cases that may be accurate, in others completely wrong, and in many partially correct. A great many people really do engage in self-destructive behavior that impoverishes themselves, such as drug addiction or having children they cannot afford to take care of (which makes it difficult to work a job or to try to advance to a better job). Some people failed to take advantage of public education and can barely read or write or perform simple calculations.

The progressive liberal socialist stance that i take recognizes that poverty is violence of the worst kind and to alleiviate that requires thorough control of scarcity and that equates wealth redistribution.

Violence? Poverty (scarcity of consumable goods and services) is the natural human condition. Almost all worthwhile goods and services are man-made and produced by human effort. Land, resources, and freshwater do, however, exist in limited, finite quantities.

An untrained propagandized mind will say that is communism but they fail to realize that soviet communism had a heirarchical brutal pyrimid structural and the brutality wasnt/isnt a result of wealth redistribution but the general violent culture of the time or place. Marx was right all along about capitalism and i think this calls for an updated form of communism. The ecology of the esrth, stability of the society, and the sustainability of the human race depend on it.

What is your take on the Western European nations? They seem to be rather successful models of part capitalism, part socialism.

 

[Indus]

To get into poverty is very easy. To get out of poverty is very hard.

The country is so nuts in terms of political agenda it's hard to get beyond the bias. One should honestly ask themself, if you couldn't live in the US because it became uninhabitable, what place would you flee to as a refugee? Would you prefer the Scandanavian/ European model that helps the poor, or would you prefer Arab/ Chinese get out of poverty if you can or die trying, there are no handouts.

Then you'd have a real sense of what is good and what is not for poverty.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

A lot of right-wingers seem to think that everyone can become at least moderately rich if only they'd go to college and either follow a useful study or start their own company. Which is of course true, because if everyone becomes a doctor, lawyer or engineer and you run out of low educated people to do the lesser paid jobs you can always import people for that, right? And of course the country can suddenly magically support that many doctors, lawyers and engineers, so it won't be a matter of only the top 0.1% getting jobs and for the rest those with already wealthy and powerful families that pull the strings to arrange jobs. And the rest? They got themselves hundreds of thousands of debt and no jobs to pay it off, unless they revert back to a lesser paid one (in which case it will take decades to pay off the debt still, while they can never benefit from the study unless they consider moving to a different country).

Becoming rich is largely a matter of luck. If you do not have the skills to reach the level needed to land you a great job you need the right contacts, for which family and friends help a lot, which in turn is a question of luck (if you were born into the Bush family you might have a slight edge over someone born in the Bronx for example).

Yes, those on drugs owe it to themselves that they can't get ahead. But many of those poor drugaddicts were so desperate to get away from their crappy lives that they were willing to give drugs a try. While rich people also often give it a try but have the money to go to rehab and the power to see drugs charges to away (Bush family again) in case of a poor parent it means the lives of the children are ruined before they start.

The problem is that there's no reason for the rich and powerful to want to change the system. Humans tend to be selfish and greedy, and to want the best for themselves and the ones they love, and not necessarily for the rest of mankind. Many of today's rich and powerful are no different to the royalty that lost power in the for example the French Revolution. The main exceptions are among the ones that became rich themselves, but families that have been rich and powerful for generations tend to see themselves as being entitled to that power, and will do literally anything in order to keep it.

 

[MagickMan]

Becoming rich is largely a matter of luck.

Nope, it's a matter of discipline. Not all "rich" people got their money that way, some inherited theirs (and they would be poor if they weren't so wealthy, given their spending habits), but the rest are some of the most focused people you'll ever meet in terms of finances. While it's true that many people are simply too stupid to become wealthy, any person of average intelligence can.

 

[Annisman*]

Being born into poverty through history has been very difficult to break free from. In our modern age there are just too many social programs at least in America for there to be an excuse to stay there. We have free schooling, often times going into college, programs that give aid (money) to low income families in one way or another. Never in history has there been so little excuse to stay in poverty, that is what the conservative believes. Remember, we aren't talking about getting rich we are talking about breaking out of poverty. It seems that whenever one of these discussions comes along we get constant blathering from the left about the 'rich' and the 'system'. Do progressive expect everybody to get wealthy ? It's a silly utopian minded thing to wish for.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Seems like the right wing mentality is that being poor is somehow a choice and not an issue of circumstance.

Bootstraps > circumstance.

 

[Knowing]

In my experience the homeless have an unmatched appetite for hearing the word "no." Interestingly, this capacity is also identified by the best sales people as the secret to their success. That only leaves the mentally ill cohort of the homeless, who unequivocally need treatment. Those who possess domiciles but are "locked" in generational poverty suffer from the crab mentality of lower class culture which, regardless of race or ethnicity tends to be destructive and self defeating.

Regarding communism, it would be interesting to compare the number of people communism has killed to the number of people capitalism has lifted out of poverty. While it's obvious in the face of it that the poor would benefit from more cooperative neighborhoods, it seems that hippie co-ops only experience success by a modern accounting when they have nearby wealthy pseudohippies to hawk their goods to. I also can't reconcile why people from the educated class keep suggesting communism when communist revolutions tend to suffer from an unfortunate period where the newly empowered lower class brutally murders the middle class to the benefit of the ruling class (which shouldn't exist but always does, hmmm).

 

[michal1980]

A Marxist saying the right has been brainwashed? LOL

 

[fskimospy]

In my experience the homeless have an unmatched appetite for hearing the word "no." Interestingly, this capacity is also identified by the best sales people as the secret to their success. That only leaves the mentally ill cohort of the homeless, who unequivocally need treatment. Those who possess domiciles but are "locked" in generational poverty suffer from the crab mentality of lower class culture which, regardless of race or ethnicity tends to be destructive and self defeating.

Regarding communism, it would be interesting to compare the number of people communism has killed to the number of people capitalism has lifted out of poverty. While it's obvious in the face of it that the poor would benefit from more cooperative neighborhoods, it seems that hippie co-ops only experience success by a modern accounting when they have nearby wealthy pseudohippies to hawk their goods to. I also can't reconcile why people from the educated class keep suggesting communism when communist revolutions tend to suffer from an unfortunate period where the newly empowered lower class brutally murders the middle class to the benefit of the ruling class (which shouldn't exist but always does, hmmm).

Very, very, very few people from the educated class advocate for communism. They often advocate for socializing certain government functions such as health care, but that is mostly due to its widespread demonstrated success over decades. Either way, it has little to do with communism.

I hope that's been helpful in clearing up the mystery!

 

[Texashiker]

Is poverty voluntary?

Yes and no.

A large part of living in poverty people are not willing to make sacrifices.

Do not want to dedicate years to college.
Do not want to go through the hassle of going to college.
Do not want to learn a trade or skill.
Not willing to relocate.
Not willing to start at the bottom and work their way up.
Lack of motivation.
Lack of dedication.
Problem with authority, do not like taking orders from a supervisor.
Underachiever, willing to settle for less.

I live in an economically suppressed area. Rather than settle for a low paying job, I drive 2 hours to work, spend a week on a tugboat, then drive home. It is rough being away from friends and family, but you do what you have to do to earn a pay check.

Then I see people in this same area complianing about not being able to find a good job. It is difficult to feel sorry for people who are not willing to do anything to better their situation.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yes and no.

A large part of living in poverty people are not willing to make sacrifices.

Do not want to dedicate years to college.
Do not want to go through the hassle of going to college.
Do not want to learn a trade or skill.
Not willing to relocate.
Not willing to start at the bottom and work their way up.
Lack of motivation.
Lack of dedication.
Problem with authority, do not like taking orders from a supervisor.
Underachiever, willing to settle for less.

I live in an economically suppressed area. Rather than settle for a low paying job, I drive 2 hours to work, spend a week on a tugboat, then drive home. It is rough being away from friends and family, but you do what you have to do to earn a pay check.

Then I see people in this same area complianing about not being able to find a good job. It is difficult to feel sorry for people who are not willing to do anything to better their situation.

So, uhh, are there enough tug boat jobs or other good paying jobs to cover all the folks who have lousy jobs? No? Why not?

Just because some of us do well within the system doesn't mean that the system allows for everybody to do well. In truth, the system has been evolving away from that for decades, degrading into a more traditional & conservative distribution pattern common to the past & the less developed world.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Being born into poverty through history has been very difficult to break free from. In our modern age there are just too many social programs at least in America for there to be an excuse to stay there. We have free schooling, often times going into college, programs that give aid (money) to low income families in one way or another. Never in history has there been so little excuse to stay in poverty, that is what the conservative believes. Remember, we aren't talking about getting rich we are talking about breaking out of poverty. It seems that whenever one of these discussions comes along we get constant blathering from the left about the 'rich' and the 'system'. Do progressive expect everybody to get wealthy ? It's a silly utopian minded thing to wish for.

I highly disagree.

Regardless of poverty, what is preventing you from
1) Going to School
2) Getting good grades (studying)
3) Going to College (based on scholarships from doing well in college - or just take out a loan if needed)
4) Having a successful career

Where in ANY of that does poverty play a factor? Outside of having a place to lay your head for the night? NONE. Poverty plays ZERO part in that. If you need something, chances are the school has no problem supplying you with it (Free meals, library/place to study, technology/computers/books to study).

It's HABITS. Bad habits. And poverty may be a common pool of people prone to bad habits, but it certainly isn't the overall cause.

 

[LegendKiller]

So, uhh, are there enough tug boat jobs or other good paying jobs to cover all the folks who have lousy jobs? No? Why not?

Just because some of us do well within the system doesn't mean that the system allows for everybody to do well. In truth, the system has been evolving away from that for decades, degrading into a more traditional & conservative distribution pattern common to the past & the less developed world.

I actually agree with this.

It is evident in the income and wealth distribution of the country that we have made a pact with the devil.

At some point people have to realize that the endgame doesn't look good.

I think that it is pretty easy for specific people to move up in this country, however, the concentration of wealth has made it much more difficult for a larger volume of people.

 

[IGBT]

it's largely the result of liberal Big.Gov policy. The war on poverty is nothing more then a "grow Big.Gov" program by establishing a permanent underclass of poverty dependents and your obama expanded the Big.Gov movement by importing poverty from South America.

 

[MongGrel]

it's largely the result of liberal Big.Gov policy. The war on poverty is nothing more then a "grow Big.Gov" program by establishing a permanent underclass of poverty dependents and your obama expanded the Big.Gov movement by importing poverty from South America.

Just weak.

 

[Jhhnn]

it's largely the result of liberal Big.Gov policy. The war on poverty is nothing more then a "grow Big.Gov" program by establishing a permanent underclass of poverty dependents and your obama expanded the Big.Gov movement by importing poverty from South America.

I can't imagine the pain you go through to create such mental contortions.

It's a piss poor way to resolve cognitive dissonance through blame shifting.

 

[Borealis7]

poverty is a hereditary disease.

 

[DCal430]

In most cases no it isn't a choice. The majority of cases these people a result of circumstances often outside of the persons control. However in some cases it is voluntary. I know of someone who basically abandoned his family and decided to live life as a homeless beggar, which he did for many years before he was run over by a car while drunk.

Before he decided he no longer loved his wife and infant child, he had a job and worked. Then poof one day he walked out on them, and decided to live a homeless transient life.

 

[MovingTarget]

Most people that espouse that view have never actually been in poverty within the last twenty years. They can get back to me when they know what it feels like to eat creamed corn as dinner for a straight week because it was all the food pantry had on hand. This, for me, was during the "boom times" of the mid to late nineties. My family eventually clawed their way out of that situation, but I know many that did not despite their best efforts. Nobody WANTS to be poor and be without the staples of food, clothing, shelter, etc., nor do they want to live where one or more of those things are uncertain from week to week.

It isn't about big or small government, laziness, dependency, or any of the other boogeymen/code words people use to describe the situation. For God's sake, its time that we put down the Ayn Rand crackpipe. People have the natural instinct to provide for themselves and their families by any means necessary. What people don't have are the ready access to dignified work.

 

[MovingTarget]

poverty is a hereditary disease.

Your wording aside, you are more right than you realize. Social mobility is no longer what it used to be, as success prioritizes hard work much less these days. Being born into the right family/community/neighborhood is becoming much more significant as each year goes by. Structural problem? Yes. Disease? No.

 

[Jaepheth]

Everyone's running the race. True, some people run harder than others, but some people also have a head start, and some people/families step into traps along the way.

 

[MongGrel]

Bravo.

 

[LegendKiller]

it's largely the result of liberal Big.Gov policy. The war on poverty is nothing more then a "grow Big.Gov" program by establishing a permanent underclass of poverty dependents and your obama expanded the Big.Gov movement by importing poverty from South America.

Yeah, nevermind shipping millions of jobs overseas to satiate Wall St. demands for higher profit. Don't bother considering that for people to afford the stuff manufactured overseas they have to have jobs that pay enough, or a job at all.

You blame *a* party for this. I blame an entire segment of the population, those who can't see past their upraised nose.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Your wording aside, you are more right than you realize. Social mobility is no longer what it used to be, as success prioritizes hard work much less these days. Being born into the right family/community/neighborhood is becoming much more significant as each year goes by. Structural problem? Yes. Disease? No.

So how do you propose fixing this?

You can't damn the successful people for making it easier on their children. Investing money away for their kids to pay for college, etc... nothing wrong with that stuff.

Yet we already have tons of programs to help out the poor vs. other countries that help them out none. So whats the answer?

Yeah, nevermind shipping millions of jobs overseas to satiate Wall St. demands for higher profit. Don't bother considering that for people to afford the stuff manufactured overseas they have to have jobs that pay enough, or a job at all.

You blame *a* party for this. I blame an entire segment of the population, those who can't see past their upraised nose.

I'm all for bringing jobs home, but is a lot of the shit that is done overseas HONESTLY stuff that ANYONE in 'murica would do? Poor or not, people in America are too good to sit in cloth making factories. Even our poor is high class.