Is the 512MB 4870 insufficient for 19x12 ?

[apoppin]

i am doing a bunch of testing with 5 GPUS including 4870, GTX280 and 4870x2. i think it deserves its own thread as this might be a real issue that i see mentioned nowhere else and i'd like to see if any other 4870 owners notice it


i notice that 4870/512 MB is NOT SMOOTH in several games - especially in ET-QW and Crysis at 19×12 with highest details. Even though the frame rate stays over 30 - and in some cases 40 FPS - as a minimum, there is some ?hitching? that indicates to me that the frame buffer is insufficient. This never happens in UT3 even though the FPS may drop to 25, so i am guessing it is the way these respective games allocate memory. I also see that in the games with these studdering issues, simply dropping to 16×10 resolution makes it much less noticeable.

i am uploading a short FRAPS video .. takes some time for 137MB over a satellite connection

I do not see this mentioned in ANY tech reviews. There is no hitching problem with the other GPUs as long as the FPS is acceptably over 30 or so.

anyone else?

 

[Wreckage]

Looks like you are going to have to buy the 1GB version and do some more testing.

 

[apoppin]

i don't think so

the 4870x2 can run with a core disabled and it is NP to run it at stock 4870 speeds

the X2 does not suffer from this limitation - ever - no matter how much i bogg it down in Crysis with 8xMSAA
- it does Micro stutter, but it is not so irritating as 2900xt's was

i think you can see it in a FRAPS video .. i will upload it later to my site if no other 4870 owner comments on it.
- it is only in a few games .. at 19x12

but if so, 4870 is *broken*
:Q

 

[soccerballtux]

I think it actually does happen in UT3. On a custom map, don't recall the name, my 8800GT was doing fine but if I turned quickly or strafed it would hitch. After standing still, framerate would return to normal in most places.

 

[Spike]

hmmmm, guess it's good I'm sticking with my 1680x1050 lcd as my 4870 has played ever game as smooth as butter maxed out (except crysis) without a hitch. I can play the early levels of crysis maxed but as it progresses my frames die.

Ah well, at least I can finally play medieval 2 total war on max settings and get mostly smooth battles involving 6000+ soldiers.

 

[SSChevy2001]

This is is exactly why we need more time vs fps charts, so we can see the whole story.

UT3 is smoother cause it's streaming textures, and texture popping will be noticed 1st.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: SSChevy2001
This is is exactly why we need more time vs fps charts, so we can see the whole story.

UT3 is smoother cause it's streaming textures, and texture popping will be noticed 1st.

Well i would think a responsible reviewer might mention what they are observing; heck you can see it in a FRAPS video.

For me, is mandatory to actually WATCH the screen instead of just generating FPS numbers that apparently are meaningless for 4870 in some situations

Is anyone else with a 512MB 4870 noticing this lack of smoothness at 19x12 with everything maxed - including filtering - with your minimum FPS *above* 30 FPS?

If so, you can toss out a bunch of tech site's conclusions about 4870
:Q

 

[SSChevy2001]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: SSChevy2001
This is is exactly why we need more time vs fps charts, so we can see the whole story.

UT3 is smoother cause it's streaming textures, and texture popping will be noticed 1st.

Well i would think a responsible reviewer might mention what they are observing; heck you can see it in a FRAPS video.

For me, is mandatory to actually WATCH the screen instead of just generating FPS numbers that apparently are meaningless for 4870 in some situations

Is anyone else with a 512MB 4870 noticing this lack of smoothness at 19x12 with everything maxed - including filtering - with your minimum FPS *above* 30 FPS?

If so, you can toss out a bunch of tech site's conclusions about 4870
:Q

Time vs FPS charts give a great insight of how actual gameplay is. Fraps videos are good for showing streaming problems or special features ( GPU PhysX maps ), even maybe MS problems.

Here are things I look for.

How much percent is spent at min FPS?
Are the min FPS from load points or action scenes?
Are the max FPS happening when you don't need it? ( In the case of a mult-gpu setup againt a single gpu setup )
....

good luck with your review :beer:

 

[Insomniator]

My 4850 is fine for me at 19x12.

Does anyone besides me not think AA is worth the performance hit? ESPECIALLY at 19x12?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Insomniator
My 4850 is fine for me at 19x12.

Does anyone besides me not think AA is worth the performance hit? ESPECIALLY at 19x12?

No, absolutely no one

everyone agrees with you about AA being overrated that has a 4850 struggling at 19x12 .. with DX10.


However, the guys with 4870x2 or GTX280 thinks max AA is the shiznit at 19x12
- i thought you should know

Fraps videos are good for showing streaming problems or special features ( GPU PhysX maps ), even maybe MS problems.

You DO realize how much storage space FRAPS video takes

i just did when i realized i nearly maxed out *both* of my 500GB HDs
:shocked:

.. so i got a little back-up external drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16822136295
640GB for $99 shipped is pretty good .. i have to do a Vista clean install on both drives when i install my new MB; my Steam game folder alone is over 30GB and it takes forever to back to DVD; i thought about an e-SATA external drive, but USB 2.0 is OK i guess.

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: Insomniator
Does anyone besides me not think AA is worth the performance hit? ESPECIALLY at 19x12?

I agree with you, but, this is the AT video forum, where it's a must to use AA, even @ 2560x1600.

edit: BTW, apoppin, how does that single 4870 do @ 1920x1200, when you aren't slowing it down with recording Fraps videos?

 

[taltamir]

make fraps save a frame by frame to render time. And then process the info and look for unusual spikes in ms to render.
check out this thread for an example of how to do it: http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=31&threadid=2205375

 

[AmberClad]

Originally posted by: apoppin
anyone else?

Not really, no. But I have a 22" monitor (1680x1050), like Spike does . I'm suffering a bit from the "tennis ball" effect or whatever it's called, as it is (eyes scanning back and forth to be able to see the whole screen), without upgrading to an even larger monitor. I was appalled by the size of the thing and how much desk space it took up back when I first got it, but I've been gradually getting used to it.

I guess I tend to go with video cards that some would consider overkill for a particular resolution, but I also tend to crank up the quality settings as high as I can get away with. I was a little surprised, a while back, to see the number of people recommending a 4850 for 1680x1050, and a 4870 for 19x12.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: myocardia

Originally posted by: Insomniator
Does anyone besides me not think AA is worth the performance hit? ESPECIALLY at 19x12?

I agree with you, but, this is the AT video forum, where it's a must to use AA, even @ 2560x1600.

edit: BTW, apoppin, how does that single 4870 do @ 1920x1200, when you aren't slowing it down with recording Fraps videos?

Clearly using FRAPS video slows it down

but the stutter is clearly present even at 40+ FPS in some games
[without FRAPs running]

 

[deerhunter716]

4870 512 MB runs every game at 1920x1200 smooth as butter here. Have put COD4 on 8x AA and 8xAF; not a hiccup. Also the new Warhammer Online and the highest settings. Plays Crysis at 30-50's FPS with all settings High and shadows low and postprocessing low.

It handles it all. I see no need for the 1 GB version anytime soon.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: deerhunter716
4870 512 MB runs every game at 1920x1200 smooth as butter here. Have put COD4 on 8x AA and 8xAF; not a hiccup. Also the new Warhammer Online and the highest settings. Plays Crysis at 30-50's FPS with all settings High and shadows low and postprocessing low.

It handles it all. I see no need for the 1 GB version anytime soon.

What does the rest of your rig look like? Might give us some additional insight into why apoppin's card stutters and yours doesn't, if we could compare both of your rigs.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Insomniator
My 4850 is fine for me at 19x12.

Does anyone besides me not think AA is worth the performance hit? ESPECIALLY at 19x12?

What does rez have to do with AA? It's all about pixel pitch - if you had 1920 rez on 12 inch screen, I doubt anyone would care about AA. But on a 27 inch screen, I can definitely benefit from AA, although when you get into the game you don't really notice the jaggies.

 

[deadseasquirrel]

That's true, munky. I'd often play at 16x12 on my old 22" CRT and not feel a strong need to add AA if it slowed the performance down too much. But now that I'm on a 32" at 1920x1080, the pixel pitch is large enough to warrant AA or it does in fact get distracting... I tend to play slower, non-twitchy type games.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: deerhunter716
4870 512 MB runs every game at 1920x1200 smooth as butter here. Have put COD4 on 8x AA and 8xAF; not a hiccup. Also the new Warhammer Online and the highest settings. Plays Crysis at 30-50's FPS with all settings High and shadows low and postprocessing low.

It handles it all. I see no need for the 1 GB version anytime soon.

What does the rest of your rig look like? Might give us some additional insight into why apoppin's card stutters and yours doesn't, if we could compare both of your rigs.

i have having a very difficult time disabling a core in X2. if it is disabled, then CCC doesn't work; if you reinstall the driver, you re-enable it. If you uninstall it, your display may go blank

i tried either core. With and without restarting. No way i can get it to work normally with a core disabled. Perhaps i am overlooking something

i understand that if i disable Cat AI, it will stop crossfire from working; true ? Unless someone can point me in the right direction, it is my last hope to bench with X2 as a single 4870/1GB


interestingly, i went back and really looked at the benchmarks that have the 4870 stuttering. In fact, i reran many of the key benches on another partition to make damn sure it is not something else - and the benches were really [really] close - and also the same stutter

HOWEVER, i also re-ran HD4870x2 benches again .. and i can see the same stutter .. but way minimized compared to x1.
:Q

WtF?

i am going to stick in my GTX280 .. right now .. and run a couple of the demos that annoy me on the 4870 ... then crawl into bed

:moon:

to be continued ...

EDIT

i figured it out

You DO need to disable Cat AT .. THEN disable a core
- however, i cannot access CCC .. clearly a core is disabled; from running 4 ET-QW benches, the 1GB 4870x2 with a core disabled is a bit slower than the stock 4870.

. . . from running 4 ET-QW benches, i can still see what i call 'hitching' or stuttering; but it appears a bit less *maybe*
.. now this can finally be explored, i think

time to stick the GeForce in and see what it runs like

 

[Raventon]

i am having the 4870x2 and i have observe the studder ONLY with GRID on 1920x1200 with 8xAA and max details.However the studder don't alway occur..it usually gets lesser and lesser as my play time gets longer..its like the system needs a warm-up..
i am having a hard time trying to solve this problem..i have also try playing other games and all the other games are fine..this only happens when i play GRID

EDIT:

maybe its worth mentioning the studder also happens at the same point of the track..and it only occurs during the first run.meaning after i complete the first race on that track.i play a second game running on that same track the studder will be gone..

my specs:
Intel c2d E8500@4.05ghz
Powercolor 4870x2
OCZ Reaper ddr1066@ 1133mhz(2x1gb +2x2gb)
Asus Rampage Formula
Corsair HX1000W
WD6400AASK x2(raid 0)
Windows Vista Ultimate x64 SP1

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: myocardia
edit: BTW, apoppin, how does that single 4870 do @ 1920x1200, when you aren't slowing it down with recording Fraps videos?

Clearly using FRAPS video slows it down

but the stutter is clearly present even at 40+ FPS in some games
[without FRAPs running]

Then you're obviously running out of VRAM. I can't think of any other explanation, unless you're running Vista with 2GB of system RAM, and your sig says you aren't.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: apoppin
i don't think so

the 4870x2 can run with a core disabled and it is NP to run it at stock 4870 speeds

the X2 does not suffer from this limitation - ever - no matter how much i bogg it down in Crysis with 8xMSAA
- it does Micro stutter, but it is not so irritating as 2900xt's was

i think you can see it in a FRAPS video .. i will upload it later to my site if no other 4870 owner comments on it.
- it is only in a few games .. at 19x12

but if so, 4870 is *broken*
:Q

8xMSAA and 1920x1200 might have something to do with it. The more MSAA you use the more vram you use. I know most games are good with 512mb of vram with 4xAA but 8xAA is pushing it.

 

[BroadbandGamer]

I'm having some problems with World of Warcraft. Every couple seconds or so I'll notice a short pause. I'm running the game maxed out at 1920x1200. I didn't notice this with my old 8800 GTX.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Raventon
i am having the 4870x2 and i have observe the studder ONLY with GRID on 1920x1200 with 8xAA and max details.However the studder don't alway occur..it usually gets lesser and lesser as my play time gets longer..its like the system needs a warm-up..
i am having a hard time trying to solve this problem..i have also try playing other games and all the other games are fine..this only happens when i play GRID

EDIT:

maybe its worth mentioning the studder also happens at the same point of the track..and it only occurs during the first run.meaning after i complete the first race on that track.i play a second game running on that same track the studder will be gone..

my specs:
Intel c2d E8500@4.05ghz
Powercolor 4870x2
OCZ Reaper ddr1066@ 1133mhz(2x1gb +2x2gb)
Asus Rampage Formula
Corsair HX1000W
WD6400AASK x2(raid 0)
Windows Vista Ultimate x64 SP1

Well, the X2 also stutters
-it is just so much less obvious as the FPS are way higher than the 4870. They doesn't stutter continuously, just in some games; especially Crysis and ET-QW .. the frame rate is plenty fast enough; now that i know what to look for it is irritating the hell out of me with my Sapphire [x1]

8xMSAA and 1920x1200 might have something to do with it. The more MSAA you use the more vram you use. I know most games are good with 512mb of vram with 4xAA but 8xAA is pushing it.

i know this and i generally test my eight benchmark games with only 4xAA/16xAF
- 8xAA is nice, but goes not work well in all games, so i don't explore it.

This stutter issue is in a few games - at max setting; 4xAA/16AF
- and it is especially noticeable with the 4870/512M. It *might* be also be noticed in the X2, but barely

Then you're obviously running out of VRAM. I can't think of any other explanation, unless you're running Vista with 2GB of system RAM, and your sig says you aren't.

2x2GB PC8500; 4GB total ..

. . . i'll have to see what happens with GTX280 on those same games

the 4870x2 with a core disabled is very slightly slower than my stock 4870; i guess the clocks are set slightly lower

 

[apoppin]

OK, a quickie update as i run off late to work

it appears to me that you can cause any GPU to 'hitch' if you load it down enough; the X2, my old 2900xt and even the 8800GTX and 280GTX can be made to do it - easily in Crysis, for example.
---it is something i noticed very rarely in the past - playing games or benching them - and when i was playing, i would turn down filtering or details without even looking at my FPS

HOWEVER, the HD4870 is the first GPU i was irritated by this anomaly as i went over benchmark demo after demo; hour after hour. Some of you may remember that i was annoyed by "something" with my 4870 right off at 19x12, which prompted my upgrade to X2.

From just a few runs this morning, the 280GTX is observably "smoother" in ETQW than HD4870/512m, for example, even though both GPUs are getting decent FPS - well above 40 FPS in most cases - and it is not like night and day .. but i can tell


Now, how do we quantify it?