Is the Entire Mizzou Protest Based On Lies?

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Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
Swastikas in modern America are associated with the entire white supremacist movement. In that movement, anti-semitism and racism toward non-whites go hand in hand. The swastika symbolizes both. This is why the Jewish students at Mizzou are in solidarity with the black students on this.

I can see how that would be the case, but without extra context swastikas still tend to be interpreted as more anti-semitic than anything, and that's how the response has been to several other incidents as recently as the past few years. What's odd is this is being framed so much (by the media and by some Mizzou students) as specifically targeting black students and not just "non-whites" in general. Ironically, most Jewish people in America are white, but obviously neo-Nazis don't think that way.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
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Is a DNA test of the poop ongoing? You can ID the person that way.

Thankfully we have not progressed that far. In order for a DNA test to be successful, the perp already has to have been arrested and put in the system.

With all the untested rape kits floating around I would hope the city would not waste money on running a DNA test.

I have seen magic marker swastikas in toilets.... this is nothing new and once again the whole thing in blown out of proportion thanks to the precedent set by the obama administration and his first beer summit.

I also believe that shit like this (no pun intended) is a way for the lame stream media to earn revenue. Their business model has been failing... but now all we see are shitstorms created by the media to attract viewers and sell ads.

The result of all of this? Now we are supposed to call the police when someone says something mean.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
If he had done his job there wouldn't have been pressure for him to resign. Therefore his resignation was triggered by him.

Maybe, maybe not. When bad things happen people tend to want someone to pay, and when the person or people who committed the offense are unknown/anonymous their ire will tend to go to someone else. Or if a company or organization is in general doing badly the leaders will tend to take the heat.

This isn't always a rational reaction and can be more about appeasement on an emotional level. It happens on all "sides" too, for example take Ellen Pao, it's hard to argue that her resignation from Reddit actually improved anything.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
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Except some black students are asking white students to leave their protests;

https://twitter.com/_SteveSchmidt_/status/664602953123262464/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

So Jewish students may be with black students on this issue, but not all black students are not with the Jewish.

The fact that Student Body President Payton Head made up the whole KKK thing is really sad. Creating a mass hysteria and causing undue stress and waste of resources is pathetic. He should be punished, but probably will not.

The fact that on one occasion the black students wanted to be in a separate room doesn't mean there is no solidarity between the two.

Assuming the story is true, I don't like the fact that they wanted some kind of "safe space" for blacks only. I think it sends a terrible message. It doesn't mean, however, that there isn't common cause between the two.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
Thankfully we have not progressed that far. In order for a DNA test to be successful, the perp already has to have been arrested and put in the system.
You obviously don't watch CSI. They get a sample and run it and have a picture within moments. Everybody knows this.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
Swasti-Caca has a better ring to it than Poop-Stika.


:thumbsup:





For the rest of the story, IMO to improve equality you want individual rights viciously defended, not group rights. And you want individualism, not collectivism.

I personally don't see a lot of good coming from how some racist issues are being handled in the country, it's like cleaning shit with shit.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
I can see how that would be the case, but without extra context swastikas still tend to be interpreted as more anti-semitic than anything, and that's how the response has been to several other incidents as recently as the past few years. What's odd is this is being framed so much (by the media and by some Mizzou students) as specifically targeting black students and not just "non-whites" in general. Ironically, most Jewish people in America are white, but obviously neo-Nazis don't think that way.

I don't think we can be sure what the precise motive was for this particular swastika. Not sure about the school's demographics, but my guess is that there isn't a large Jewish student population and that the black population is much larger. It would explain why we're hearing more from black students, and would also explain why some people are assuming the swastika was aimed at them when in reality it could have been aimed at Jews or quite possibly at both.

The swastika is a symbol of both forms of bigotry. The Nazis were known more for anti-semitism because they had a sizable number of Jews in Germany and the rest of Europe but not many blacks. In modern America, the white supremacists have the same ideology, but being anti-black is a higher priority since we have lots of black people here. There is also a tie in between the two - white supremacists generally believe that the Jews are responsible for bringing brown people into this country and are trying to undermine the white aryans by polluting the culture and gene pool with inferior races. They think the Jews are the evil connivers plotting to undermine them, and the blacks and hispanics are their brutish foot soldiers.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
The fact that on one occasion the black students wanted to be in a separate room doesn't mean there is no solidarity between the two.

Assuming the story is true, I don't like the fact that they wanted some kind of "safe space" for blacks only. I think it sends a terrible message. It doesn't mean, however, that there isn't common cause between the two.

Honestly, I think it does a disservice to the fight against racism for black people and Jewish people to find solidarity in this..

It's true there's some group of white supremacists in America who hate both. Probably not in higher quantity than Jewish people who are racist against black people (I've known some) and black people who are anti-semitic. But I don't think these white supremacists are much of the "problem" for black people or Jewish people in America today.

The problems are a lot more subtle and pervasive. They have to do with how every day people form subtle biases that influences whom they see as capable or threats and they have to do with who is born into what money. And in these categories Jews and black people could not be further apart. I haven't lived in Missouri so I don't know what kind of crap Jewish people have to deal with, but I really doubt it's anything like what black people have to.

This bogeyman of random swastikas is exactly the wrong thing to let dominate the public consciousness. These things are like the anti-semitic statements you find all over youtube. On the face of things they seem really terrible and like something that needs to be stopped, but in reality they're just the ramblings of ineffectual idiots. People who don't actually have power or influence in the real world so they try to do something shocking to get noticed. Like drawing swastikas in feces on bathroom walls. Frankly I would say these things are best ignored. Throwing a media circus over it and getting the head of the school fired while the person who did it goes uncaught is probably giving that person exactly what they wanted. Regardless of what their sincere opinions are.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
Honestly, I think it does a disservice to the fight against racism for black people and Jewish people to find solidarity in this.

I don't agree with this statement at all. You said yourself that some blacks are anti-semitic and some Jews are anti-black, which is precisely why the solidarity is a good thing. Regardless of the difference in particularities between the two, they can stand together because they both have been victimized by bigotry. You're suggesting that they should keep separate and emphasize their differences rather than the commonalities. That is precisely why you'll find some cross animus between these two minority groups, or any two minority groups for that matter. In fact, it's precisely why bigotry exists to begin with, because there isn't enough solidarity among people of different ethnicities.

I personally found it unsettling that a solid majority of blacks in California voted for banning gay marriage a few years ago. Given the anti-miscegeny laws they faced in the past, you'd think they'd show some solidarity. But unfortunately the fact that black people in America are more religious on average than white people proved to be the ruling factor. There was a lack of solidarity here, and as a result, gays were denied equal rights for several more years in California. This is an illustration of precisely why solidarity among various minority groups is more a good thing than a bad one.

It's true there's some group of white supremacists in America who hate both. Probably not in higher quantity than Jewish people who are racist against black people (I've known some) and black people who are anti-semitic. But I don't think these white supremacists are much of the "problem" for black people or Jewish people in America today.

You probably see it that way because you don't think the white supremacists can have much of a direct material effect, that what they are doing with the swastika is purely symbolic, i.e. sticks and stones. But these images are offensive. It reminds people of things like slavery and genocide, and makes them feel like they are in a hostile environment. You probably don't get this because nothing in your background or experience would make you feel personally offended at the symbols so you aren't sensitive to it.

The problems are a lot more subtle and pervasive. They have to do with how every day people form subtle biases that influences whom they see as capable or threats and they have to do with who is born into what money. And in these categories Jews and black people could not be further apart. I haven't lived in Missouri so I don't know what kind of crap Jewish people have to deal with, but I really doubt it's anything like what black people have to.

Differing circumstances doesn't mean they shouldn't have common cause. Certainly the bigots would prefer it that way - divide and conquer.

This bogeyman of random swastikas is exactly the wrong thing to let dominate the public consciousness. These things are like the anti-semitic statements you find all over youtube. On the face of things they seem really terrible and like something that needs to be stopped, but in reality they're just the ramblings of ineffectual idiots. People who don't actually have power or influence in the real world so they try to do something shocking to get noticed. Like drawing swastikas in feces on bathroom walls. Frankly I would say these things are best ignored. Throwing a media circus over it and getting the head of the school fired while the person who did it goes uncaught is probably giving that person exactly what they wanted. Regardless of what their sincere opinions are.

This isn't only about a single swastika. There was more than one incident publicly identified, but most racist incidents are never reported to anyone. Frankly, I have no reason to disbelieve both white and black students who claim they hear the n-word on at least a semi-regular basis at Mizzou. We've had posters in this very thread with direct, personal experience with Mizzou and other southern universities say the same thing. I have no reason to doubt the veracity of any of it. If we're going to insist on a photo or audio recordings to prove every case of a spontaneously shouted slur then we are willfully and intentionally putting our heads in the sand.

So far as the university president, I lean toward agreeing. It's tough for them to do anything about the racism without censorship, which is something I oppose. I think these students are complaining about a circumstance which is real, but misplacing their anger toward the person at the top. Unfortunately, it is a fact of life that when bad circumstances exist within any group or organization, the person at the top tends to be blamed even if they couldn't have done much of anything about it.
 
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Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
I don't agree with this statement at all. You said yourself that some blacks are anti-semitic and some Jews are anti-black, which is precisely why the solidarity is a good thing. Regardless of the difference in particularities between the two, they can stand together because they both have been victimized by bigotry. You're suggesting that they should keep separate and emphasize their differences rather than the commonalities. That is precisely why you'll find some cross animus between these two minority groups, or any two minority groups for that matter. In fact, it's precisely why bigotry exists to begin with.

I personally found it unsettling that a solid majority of blacks in California voted for banning gay marriage a few years ago. Given the anti-miscegeny laws they faced in the past, you'd think they'd show some solidarity. But unfortunately the fact that black people in America are more religious on average than white people proved to be the ruling factor. There was a lack of solidarity here, and as a result, gays were denied equal rights for several more years in California. This is an illustration of precisely why solidarity among various minority groups is more a good thing than a bad one.

I don't think that these groups should keep separate. Saying they shouldn't find solidarity is probably not the right way to put it. What I think is counterproductive and harmful is when all discrimination or oppression is looked at as being basically the same thing and everyone being in the same fight when they can have very different circumstances, histories, motivations, etc. For instance, there's a big push to treat racism and sexism as basically the same thing today and that, IMO, has done a lot to dilute how people see things like gender roles/stereotypes. When you see the dynamic between men and women as America as being the same as the dynamic between white people and black people in America a lot is lost.

Black people voting against same-sex marriage isn't surprising at all, why? Because again racism and homophobia have different motivations that go beyond just "let's oppress what's different." When your stance is that it's gross and God doesn't like it trying to tell people "you didn't like it when the law said who you couldn't marry" will just get you a lot of "but that wasn't the same." You have to instead try to convince people that it's not gross or it doesn't matter if it is and that what you think God says shouldn't be the basis for law.

You probably see it that way because you don't think the white supremacists can have much of a direct material effect, that what they are doing with the swastika is purely symbolic, i.e. sticks and stones. But these images are offensive. It reminds people of things like slavery and genocide, and makes them feel like they are in a hostile environment.

The white supremacists DON'T have much of a direct material effect. That's the point. Sure it reminds them of awful things, that is their intention, but you needn't let an ineffectual minority ruin everything for you and make you feel afraid when they don't have much ability to actually do anything. The fact is, they don't have the real strength of their community anymore which is what drives them to acting out like this. Showing them that they have this kind of effect on you is giving them more power than they deserve.

You probably don't get this because nothing in your background or experience would make you feel personally offended at the symbols so you aren't sensitive to it.

So you say, but I probably have the same background as a lot of the Jews who do say that they're deeply impacted by this sort of thing. The symbols are hateful and directed at me and people related to me, but it doesn't really bother me because they're just sad ignorant fools.

Differing circumstances doesn't mean they shouldn't have common cause. Certainly the bigots would prefer it that way - divide and conquer.

On the other hand, the dichotomy that anti-racism has been moved towards which is basically white vs non-white (or "people of color") fits very well with a white supremacist's mindset...

This isn't only about a single swastika. There was more than one incident publicly identified, but most racist incidents are never reported to anyone. Frankly, I have no reason to disbelieve both white and black students who claim they hear the n-word on at least a semi-regular basis at Mizzou. We've had posters in this very thread with direct, personal experience with Mizzou and other southern universities say the same thing. I have no reason to doubt the veracity of any of it. If we're going to insist on a photo or audio recordings to prove every case of a spontaneously shouted slur then we are willfully and intentionally putting our heads in the sand.

This being about more than a single swastika is exactly my point. The swastika is what the media is obsessing over and it's serving more to divert from broader issues and more importantly, practical approaches to improvement.
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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The University President decided for himself he wasn't fit for the job. He resigned.

The completely honest way of looking at it if he had taken the complaints of black students over the years seriously instead of being completely dismissive we would not be here today.

If he had done his job there wouldn't have been pressure for him to resign. Therefore his resignation was triggered by him.

You're speaking in broad-based generalities, not specifics. If you want things to improve, you need to define some specifics. What could have prevented the poop swastika? Should he have had the foresight to hire bathroom attendants to monitor every campus restroom 24/7?

What is not safe about the campus?

The cotton ball incident you highlight, the response of the group was:
We're not afraid. You clearly are.
Do they feel unsafe?

Should the college begin installing police cameras on every corner of the campus in order to catch who might have done this? What do you want?

We can fill a whole stadium of people to give you lip-service, hold your hands through the difficult moments, if that's what you want, but that doesn't solve anything, we're still going to be having this same conversation in five years, in 10 years, in 15 years.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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Wanting the illusion of "a safe place" is how, for example, we ended up with the TSA. We need to be a little more specific on what "a safe place" is, and we need to be realistic on what is and is not possible.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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There's more to that/those resignation(s) than simply the allegations of lack of leadership with regards to the racism issue, I think. One of those was that apparently they axed the health insurance for graduate students and told the graduate student union to deal with it, or something to that effect. Ignoring all the other allegations for a second (which may or may not be accurate), as both a graduate student myself (albeit not at mizzou) and one who is diabetic who relies on university health insurance as a pretty crucial key to, you know, survival, if my university just decided to end their health insurance policies and told me to take a hike I would be fucking livid. So even in that alone I can see a good argument for resignation.

It's an expense that costs money. If they don't have the money, something has to be cut out of the budget. Someone is going to be pissed off at having their funds cut. So if the formula is "piss someone off -> get fired" then we are in an unsolvable situation. What is the next University President going to do differently?
 

Screech

Golden Member
Oct 20, 2004
1,202
6
81
It's an expense that costs money. If they don't have the money, something has to be cut out of the budget. Someone is going to be pissed off at having their funds cut. So if the formula is "piss someone off -> get fired" then we are in an unsolvable situation. What is the next University President going to do differently?

Sure, something has to be cut, but if a boss decides that due to a lack of money he will give his workers (lets assume they make $2000/month) a pay cut of $300/month out of the blue, do you expect them to just take that without even contesting it? Sometimes if you screw over the people who work for you, you will incur their displeasure. Perhaps they think something else should have been cut and as a result think he did a poor job as a leader. I mean, seriously, are they supposed to think "wow this pay cut is totally great, I'm so happy that our leadership is looking out for us!"...?

I'm not sure what they can or should do differently with respect to the race issues -- a lot of those, to me, look very difficult to unsolvable with the exception of letting racists get old and die (the whole 'society progresses not with births but with funerals' thing) -- but insofar as the health insurance issue goes, that one is pretty obvious to me..... give them health insurance. Or at least, give those who enrolled (ie signed a contract) under the belief, supported by the university, of certain benefits in said enrollment, said benefits, and maybe only phase them out for newly entering students who would never have been under the (now incorrect) belief that the university would cover this.

edit: I was going to compare this to actually breaking the terms of an agreement in a contract but I assume that the health insurance policies are not signed to for a long term and are probably separate and so it is not so much that the administration actually broke terms in an employment contract so much as just fucked people over, albeit legally. Even so, it should be easy to understand why this would cause anger.
 
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Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81

Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,478
524
126
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/1...or-resignation-over-email-flap/?intcmp=hplnws

Now more universities (20) are protesting too, some calling for more jobs. A professor tried to resign at Missouri because of students, but the university rejected his resignation. A Dean at another university did resign, because the mob was coming after her. Last Pres stepped down because he didn't do enough? New pres at Missouri is black.

Didn't do enough when parts of this was based on lies? The student president lied about a KKK sighting and him working with police and the national guard. It was his complaint that someone used a racial slur off campus that helped to start this whole thing. He was upset that the pres didn't do anything about this alleged incident. One that looks fabricated as well. Why should anyone believe this even happened when he has no problems lying to everyone?

His "apology" (in part) for lying about the KKK thing?
“I’m sorry about the misinformation that I have shared through social media. In a state of alarm, I was concerned for all students of the University of Missouri and wanted to ensure that everyone was safe.

Misinformation, is this what we call a lie now? Why was he in a state of alarm? He feared for all students why? Because he helped start the entire thing? he helped cause this "state of alarm". Causing someone to lose their job over lies is acceptable now? The fact that he didn't step down from his is incredibly hypocritical.
 

Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,478
524
126
The hypocrisy from Missouri is astounding. In 2003a school official, called white people "crackers" and told football players not to date white women, calling them "pink toes". Racial slurs all over. Do you think there were protests, student presidents lying to further their agenda? Do you think he was fired or resigned?

One president uses multiple racial slurs, one president does not. Totally different outcomes.
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Perfect Example of a millennial pussy. Comments are pretty good.

https://twitter.com/nugget2times/status/664274958500130816

I read up a little on that.

Anonymous threats are made across the internet in ungodly numbers (across a wide range of subjects & situations, threats are not confined to racist origins), and I'd be surprised if even 0.00001% of the threats actually came to be.

So, what do we do about it?

You can't control internet posts. You can't control placing police officers everywhere. (according to the internet you can't control police officers to be police officers anyways)

What's left? Destroy the internet for people to feel safe? Cut off the ability for one person to freely create a message readable by others? Apply filters & censorship to facebook/twitter/etc.?
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
His "apology" (in part) for lying about the KKK thing?

“I’m sorry about the misinformation that I have shared through social media. In a state of alarm, I was concerned for all students of the University of Missouri and wanted to ensure that everyone was safe.

To say that in an alternate valid form - it's right to spread misinformation if the misinformation might lead to a better outcome. I think we're all familiar with this concept around this forum.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
60
91
The hypocrisy from Missouri is astounding. In 2003 the President of Missouri, Carmento Floyd, called white people "crackers" and told football players not to date white women, calling them "pink toes". Racial slurs all over. Do you think there were protests, student presidents lying to further their agenda? Do you think he was fired or resigned?

One president uses multiple racial slurs, one president does not. Totally different outcomes.

Can you substantiate those details about Floyd? Not saying you're wrong. I'd like to use that info to counter some of the 'we need progress' arguments.
 
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