Is the history of Jesus as indicated in the NT completely fabricated?

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
It's not something I can prove or disprove, but one side of the argument to me sounds far more plausible and rational. And that is that the "story" of Jesus that is accepted today in the NT was completely fabricated. I'm also not claiming I know what the truth really is, all I'm claiming is that it is highly unlikely that what is in the NT is an accurate depiction of the history of Jesus.

While I was attending Catholic high school (which I did for 4 years), we often heard readings from the Epistles and the Gospels. Only once was I in a class where the students were told that the Epistles were the only existing Christian writings for the 40 years following the alleged death of Jesus (the earliest date on which scholars affix the writing of the Gospels was about 90 A.D.). Even more striking, it was never pointed out to the students that the Epistles failed to even mention Mary, Joseph, the birth of an historical Jesus, the miracles of Jesus or the teachings of an historical Jesus. This is rather incredible, given that an earth-residing Jesus was allegedly God.

Think about this: out planet was visited by God incarnate (Creator of the Universe), whose earthly life was snuffed out by a bloody crucifixion after He performed dozens miracles allegedly witnessed by thousands, and we get . . . silence. For 40 years. Imagine an event that is much less noteworthy, for instance imagine that San Francisco suffered a massive earthquake in 1906 but no one wrote anything about it for 40 years. Jesus did something even more amazing, it is claimed. Upon his death, the earth shook, tombs opened and dead people walked around the town. But no one wrote about this for 40 years. Or imagine Michael Jordan dazzling the basketball world for years, but no one writing about it . . . for 40 years.

I find these discussions to be fascinating. In fact, these sorts of discussions should really be one of the starting points for any thoughtful Christian?s education. Shouldn?t anyone who wants to follow the truth consider even those things that might appear inconvenient or even hostile to those beliefs? In the same vein, shouldn?t those who want to use the Bible itself as the starting point for their beliefs, consider the origin of the Bible writings, including the undeniable fact that numerous biblical writings have been tampered with over the years?

I?m not disparaging the teachings of Jesus. Many of those teachings are challenging, humanitarian, even revolutionary. We don?t need to believe in a flesh and blood Jesus in order to find value in those teachings that have value, right? Nor do we need to believe in a physical reality of Atticus Finch to be inspired by the kind of man he was portrayed to be. Therefore, I want to make it clear that I am raising the issue of the existence of a flesh and blood Jesus, but not contesting that many of his teaching were inspirational.

Nor am I raising alarm that many people are striving to seek out higher meaning in the absence of sufficient facts on which to base that meaning of life. All of us, those who believe in God and those who don?t, are all in the same boat in that respect. But I also think that beliefs should always be thoughtful, striving, humble and willing to consider all serious opposing views and consider where and when they don?t know what they don?t know.

I would just end this diatribe in asking what do you honestly believe is more likely given the facts we know?
 

Colt45

Lifer
Apr 18, 2001
19,721
1
0
Religion and logic are like water and oil. You're looking at this from the wrong angle.
 

yours truly

Golden Member
Aug 19, 2006
1,026
1
81
it generally widely accepted by many faiths (christianity, judaism, islam, hinduism etc) that jesus did exist

why the delay in the NT i dont know. maybe his followers feared ridicule and persecution
 

Sheepathon

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2003
6,092
0
76
Sure Jesus existed.

But did he split a few fish and loaves of bread to feed thousands? Questionable. Did he touch lepers and miraculously heal them? Dubious. Did he touch the eyes of blind men and give them their sight back? Unlikely. Did he turn water into wine? (this would be the most awesome party trick in the history of time, btw) Probably not.

Or, from a less micro perspective, did an invisible man in the sky divinely rape a woman, who then gave virgin birth to a man-god (husband was totally cool with this, btw. "Don't worry, it's God's child!" "Oh okay, then it's cool") who eventually was executed, entombed, rose from the dead three days later, then floated upwards into the sky and disappeared? Whether you believe this or not will probably factor into your eventual arrival at an answer for yourself.
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
History at the time was imperfect, still is, but it's getting better. There simply isn't any way to find this out, however most of what's written about him is difficult to believe. But I suppose that's the purpose, isn't it.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
People who didn't believe in him ignored his being a prophet, like so many other claimed prophets.
Those who did believe in him probably
a) weren't very literate (partly because a lot of early christians were poor/female as it had an appeal to those types for various reasons)
b) weren't very organised (partly because they weren't allowed to be because of (c))
c) were scared/persecuted

So there wasn't much of a chance to start writing straight away.
Plus word of mouth was quite big, and while many people may have been Jews to start off with, who did have a set religious text, most religions of the time weren't driven by having a set religious text which explicitly stated everything, they just kind of made things up and changed things as they went along, so for a lot of followers, having written record wouldn't have been considered normal and/or important (those who came from more traditional religions of the time)
 

yours truly

Golden Member
Aug 19, 2006
1,026
1
81
another thing that might be worth noting

if the NT was just exaggerated stories and chinese whispers, the bible we'd be reading today, would have a jesus with a sword in one hand, lightning bolts in the other, slaying demons on his flying unicorn

but, the bible portrays jesus, as a humble carpenter, who preached tolerance, compassion and forgiveness, in a hostile world

 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
Originally posted by: hopeless74
another thing that might be worth noting

if the NT was just exaggerated stories and chinese whispers, the bible we'd be reading today, would have a jesus with a sword in one hand, lightning bolts in the other, slaying demons on his flying unicorn

but, the bible portrays jesus, as a humble carpenter, who preached tolerance, compassion and forgiveness, in a hostile world

...that does things just as improbable and far-fetched as slaying demons on a flying unicorn.
 

Modular

Diamond Member
Jul 1, 2005
5,027
67
91
The flow of information today is much faster than it was 2000 years ago, hence the reason everyone knew about Jordan. I'm also no expert, but it's quite plausible that persecution could be the reason why those books weren't written for so long. There is also the reality that there are many other religious texts that mention Jesus and have stories about him that just never made it into the Bible. The nuns at your Catholic school probably believe that the only true books are those contained in the physical Bible and therefore any preceding/following texts don't hold any weight to them. I believe it was the Council of Nicea (sp?) where the church determined what books would be allowed into the Bible.
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
Originally posted by: Modular
There is also the reality that there are many other religious texts that mention Jesus and have stories about him that just never made it into the Bible.

There are about 3 or 4 that I've heard of, and interestingly enough, although all of them mention a Jesus, none seem to discuss any of the miracles and other details that make Jesus noteworthy. You'd think they might cover stuff like that if it were true.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Not only was the first gospel not put to paper until 30 or 40 years after he died, it was done by someone who had never met him, and did not mention the messiah story at all. That was added by the one who rewrote the first gospel, a Turkish Jew who thought the story wasn't Jewish enough and therefor changed it. Or at least that's what a librarian from the Vatican said in a documentary about the NT.
 

AnonymouseUser

Diamond Member
May 14, 2003
9,943
107
106
Look, this is Jesus, the "Son" of god, complete with his "crown of thorns" (sometimes it just looks like a halo). Though he appears to be "walking on water", he is actually still in "heaven".

 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,815
2
81
Originally posted by: AnonymouseUser
Look, this is Jesus, the "Son" of god, complete with his "crown of thorns" (sometimes it just looks like a halo). Though he appears to be "walking on water", he is actually still in "heaven".

Mithras is that you?
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,892
2,135
126
The historical record actually paints him as more of a reformist---kind of like a Ghandi character. I'm Catholic, but I'm not too keen on the miracle thing.
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
It is widely accepted through the records of Josephus the historian, that Jesus walked on this Earth.

Whether or not he did miracles is up to each persons personal set of beliefs.

I would also like to say that there were no Christians at the time of Jesus. Christians appeared after the "CHRIST", before then Jesus had a small group of followers called disciples. After he died another group of people who believed, called apostles, were formed. From there they took one for a disciple, and then everyone went out to preach the good news (That he had conquered the grave/death).

-Kevin
 

AreaCode7O7

Senior member
Mar 6, 2005
931
1
0
Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
It's not something I can prove or disprove, but one side of the argument to me sounds far more plausible and rational. And that is that the "story" of Jesus that is accepted today in the NT was completely fabricated. I'm also not claiming I know what the truth really is, all I'm claiming is that it is highly unlikely that what is in the NT is an accurate depiction of the history of Jesus.

While I was attending Catholic high school (which I did for 4 years), we often heard readings from the Epistles and the Gospels. Only once was I in a class where the students were told that the Epistles were the only existing Christian writings for the 40 years following the alleged death of Jesus (the earliest date on which scholars affix the writing of the Gospels was about 90 A.D.). Even more striking, it was never pointed out to the students that the Epistles failed to even mention Mary, Joseph, the birth of an historical Jesus, the miracles of Jesus or the teachings of an historical Jesus. This is rather incredible, given that an earth-residing Jesus was allegedly God.

Think about this: out planet was visited by God incarnate (Creator of the Universe), whose earthly life was snuffed out by a bloody crucifixion after He performed dozens miracles allegedly witnessed by thousands, and we get . . . silence. For 40 years. Imagine an event that is much less noteworthy, for instance imagine that San Francisco suffered a massive earthquake in 1906 but no one wrote anything about it for 40 years. Jesus did something even more amazing, it is claimed. Upon his death, the earth shook, tombs opened and dead people walked around the town. But no one wrote about this for 40 years. Or imagine Michael Jordan dazzling the basketball world for years, but no one writing about it . . . for 40 years.
I find these discussions to be fascinating. In fact, these sorts of discussions should really be one of the starting points for any thoughtful Christian?s education. Shouldn?t anyone who wants to follow the truth consider even those things that might appear inconvenient or even hostile to those beliefs? In the same vein, shouldn?t those who want to use the Bible itself as the starting point for their beliefs, consider the origin of the Bible writings, including the undeniable fact that numerous biblical writings have been tampered with over the years?

I?m not disparaging the teachings of Jesus. Many of those teachings are challenging, humanitarian, even revolutionary. We don?t need to believe in a flesh and blood Jesus in order to find value in those teachings that have value, right? Nor do we need to believe in a physical reality of Atticus Finch to be inspired by the kind of man he was portrayed to be. Therefore, I want to make it clear that I am raising the issue of the existence of a flesh and blood Jesus, but not contesting that many of his teaching were inspirational.

Nor am I raising alarm that many people are striving to seek out higher meaning in the absence of sufficient facts on which to base that meaning of life. All of us, those who believe in God and those who don?t, are all in the same boat in that respect. But I also think that beliefs should always be thoughtful, striving, humble and willing to consider all serious opposing views and consider where and when they don?t know what they don?t know.

I would just end this diatribe in asking what do you honestly believe is more likely given the facts we know?

To be fair, on the bolded portion of your post, a more accurate comparison would be:

A small village in Afghanistan is reporting to US soldiers, after a small earthquake, that their local religion has just had several prophecies come true and that dead people are now walking around. The US soldiers, in this occupied, under-developed, under-educated country, look at these villagers and say, "yeah, right" and keep on doing their soldiering.

The events in the New Testament, even taken as written, aren't occurring in a highly-visible location in front of lots of highly-respected people. They're taking place to the lower, superstitious and uneducated classes of an occupied territory where even the leaders of the area are largely ignored unless riots are in the offing.

Beyond that, at the time this took place it wasn't unusual to have wandering prophets collecting groups of follower that passed on their teaching. It was a cultural thing. Nobody that wasn't in the clique of followers would have had reason to give Jesus any more note than John the Baptist or any other itinerant, penniless preacher.

So, whether the NT is true or not, in the scenario where you assume it's true, there's really still no reason to think that the events would have been historically documented. Jesus would have come into contact with a few thousand peasants, tops, and would have been executed as your average run-in-the-mill criminal by the Romans. Nothing special from the point of view of the people who write things down.

Now if this happened last year, the bloggers would have been all over it.
 

AreaCode7O7

Senior member
Mar 6, 2005
931
1
0
Originally posted by: hopeless74
it generally widely accepted by many faiths (christianity, judaism, islam, hinduism etc) that jesus did exist

why the delay in the NT i dont know. maybe his followers feared ridicule and persecution

Eh, I don't think it was a fear of ridicule and persecution, because they did a lot of wandering around and loud, annoying, inconvenient preaching which did earn them the ridicule and persecution. It wouldn't have kept them from writing it down; what else did they have to lose?

I think it was because, and you can see this in their writings, that they believed the re-arrival of Jesus was extremely imminent. Most likely they originally figured it would be a few weeks/months and then as time stretched on they figured a few years, and then maybe a generation or so. They didn't write stuff down, I think, until they realized they weren't going to be around to continue doing their loud preaching in person.
 

AreaCode7O7

Senior member
Mar 6, 2005
931
1
0
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Modular
There is also the reality that there are many other religious texts that mention Jesus and have stories about him that just never made it into the Bible.

There are about 3 or 4 that I've heard of, and interestingly enough, although all of them mention a Jesus, none seem to discuss any of the miracles and other details that make Jesus noteworthy. You'd think they might cover stuff like that if it were true.

I don't think it was atypical, at the time, for most of the wandering preachers to claim "miracles", hence the people's ready acceptance. Heck, it's not unusual NOW for the claim of miracles to be accepted by some people in some places. Look at the pilgrimages some people take to be healed at fountains or temples (multiple religions - Hindus and Christians come most readily to mind). We don't write those up today, do we? Because we hear it second and third hand and assume it's not true, don't even bother to investigate. They weren't any less "savvy" than we are; they'd hear reports of miracles and laugh too.
 
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