Is the quality of all motherboard brands really that inconsistant?

[steve1616]

I was all set to purchase a P5K-deluxe wifi last night at newegg. I was shocked when I saw how many people were saying that this board was junk and that it didn't even work for a lot of people. I looked at a few more recommended brands and boards, and it looks like they all have close to a 35-40% failure rate. That just scares the crud out of me. To think that I have a little over a 50% chance of getting a motherboard that will work great for a long time seems very troubling to me. The only board that seemed to have a decent user rating was the GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L. I just don't understand how this many people could get bad motherboards. I mean, the big manufacturers like HP, Gateway, Sony, Toshiba, etc.etc, sell thousands of complete computer packages through best buy, walmart, etc., and I very rarely hear about a bad motherboard in any of these computers, and they sell so many of these complete packages. Heck, with all the components that a complete computer has, I haven't heard of this percentage of failure rate for even just one component going bad in the whole computer. Are motherboards really this bad for consistency in quality, or are there that many people that don't know what they are doing? The P5K-deluxe that I wanted had very bad user reviews. Is it really that bad of a motherboard? I don't want to have any problems. I am going to put an E8400 on the motherboard that I buy. I don't really need to overclock, but I want a good quality board. Is there a better choice? Should I be considering the Gigabyte board that had better user ratings. I can always buy wifi for this board also, and the board is a bunch cheaper. Please tell me what you guys think. I am sorry to be such a bother, but I just don't want to spend my hard earned money on something that won't work. I don't mind paying extra money for a better motherboard if it will save me hours of headache. I can pay for a better board pretty easily if a cheap board takes a bunch of my time, and I am forced to spend fixing problems when I could be working for money.

Thank You,

Steve

 

[Midnight Rambler]

1.) Most of the users whose reviews/opinions you've read will tend to be the more fringe computer user ... performance tweaker/OC freak, gamer, etc. As such they will tend to be using more complicated boards and also more often than not, pushing them to their limits (or trying to), etc. These factors most likely explain some of the higher complaints, not sure about failures (unless self-induced).

2.) Giga-byte boards have as many problems as other brands.

3.) The big OEMs either over-engineer, or design to the extreme side of caution, in order to keep up reliability. Usually the latter but the recent trend in performance models being offered by the OEMs has resulted in a little of the first. Dell selling water-cooled systems, whodda thought ...

 

[steve1616]

When you say over-engineer, does this mean that the big OEM's might have better quality boards than we can get from Asus, Abit, Gigabyte, etc.

 

[steve1616]

This is all new to me. I thought that if I built my own computer that not only could I get it customized exactly how I needed, but I thought that the quality would be a lot better also, and therefore also be more reliable. Am I deceiving myself. I use to build modified racing engines for a living, and I could build very reliable high performance engines. The point was that I could use aftermarket parts to get more horsepower, and yet still being reliable. I got more performance without sacrificing reliability if I used parts from the right manufacturers. One thing that did surprise me was that, for instance, stock gm connecting rods would actually handle more horsepower than some of the better known aftermarket brands. Then you jumped up to the big boys that manufactured expensive connecting rods and they were just truly astounding, and better than anything in quality. I guess what I am asking is, are these aftermarket motherboard manufacturers just offering easier to tweak motherboards, or are they actually better quality than the OEM's also?

 

[Midnight Rambler]

I guess a better way to put it would be that they all build various levels of boards to various levels of quality. Some of it is controlled by them (ie. to their in-house designs), others to the OEMs spec/design. Some OEMs might have tighter specs, some may have looser. Some may be happy with a "B" grade product, others want an "A" grade product. Even within the same OEM they may spec "A" grade for their top line, vs. they will accept a lower grade for their lower product line.

Maybe a better analogy. CRT makers, and now flat panel makers ... the quality coming off their lines varies. Sony/Samsung make their own panels, they keep "A" grades for themselves. Westinghouse or Insignia or whatever off-brand ... they want to build an inexpensive set ... they do not make panels, so they go to Sony/Samsung. They can't afford the "A" panels and keep within their budget price target, so they accept "B"s at a better price. Or maybe a big OEM that makes its own panels sells a whole line of TV's from high-end to low. The quality of their own panel will vary from high to low accordingly.

So really the answer is that all the mobo makers offer various levels of both quality and performance. The addage that you get what you pay for is generally true, though not always. Sometimes bleeding edge technology that doesn't work (right) is as bad as poor quality. But generally, a $59 mobo made by PC Chips is gonna suck, probably as result of both poor design and poor mfg. quality.

As for the connecting rods, if available for your motor, I woulda gone with Genuine GM High-Performance aka "Pink" connecting rods.

 

[Quiksilver]

I think your also forgetting that in general newegg reviews are crap. Occasionally you will get that one gem out of a million that is a good review done by some one who actually knows what they are talking about, not too mention just about anyone can make a newegg account and make a review for a product and claims its doa or the board is non-fuctional just cause they can or want to play the fanboy card. Take newegg reviews as a grain of salt, nothing more. If you want a quality review of a product you will actually need to look at reviews sources like anandtech, hardocp, madshrimps, toms hardware, and others.

 

[steve1616]

Yes, the "Pink" rods are nice because they are magnufluxed 2x and were thrown out if any imperfections were shown, but they were pretty much stock other than that. They will handle a lot of power and rpm if ARP rod bolts are used. I only used oliver "parabolic" rods for my super high performance engines. They would handle 2000 horsepower and 10,000 rpms. I installed them in over 150 (super high horsepower" engines without one rod failure. It doesn't look like I will find a motherboard maker with this kind of quality.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Saying Big OEMs over-engineer, and then saying PC chips is crap, is a bit contradictory. PC Chips is one of the largest OEM makers.

 

[steve1616]

Quicksilver, I have looked at the major review sites and the Abit IP35 Pro is rated great, but I haven't seen one forum where this motherboard is doing perfect with the E8400. What board would you recommend? I still really like the feature set of the P5K Deluxe wifi, though it seems a little overpriced in its category. Newegg was the only place that I saw end user reviews. Are there other places that maybe have more knowlegable end users that might give the product the credit it may or may not deserve?

 

[steve1616]

One thing I have noticed in these reviews is that the P5K deluxe offers something called jumperless technology. Is this refering to controlling the memory timings without a jumper wire? Are the Abit and Gygabyte equivalents to the P5K also jumperless. I still see the most consistency in the P5K deluxe. Not to mention, a couple of people on this forum who seemed super knowledgable recommended this board also.

 

[Quiksilver]

Originally posted by: steve1616
Quicksilver, I have looked at the major review sites and the Abit IP35 Pro is rated great, but I haven't seen one forum where this motherboard is doing perfect with the E8400. What board would you recommend?

I believe the Abit IP35 Pro had some problems with the E6*50 series alone (I cannot say if they still exist) so I wouldn't be surprised if their are some problems with the newer 45nm processors. Anyway I probably would go with a Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS4 if it had to a p35 board, personally I'm waiting for X48 motherboards to launch next month (hopefully) to see what they bring to the table and because most X38 boards now are still seemingly buggy.

Are there other places that maybe have more knowlegable end users that might give the product the credit it may or may not deserve?

Not really, any place that lets users review products and doesn't allow for any real moderation for proper reviews your going to end up with a handful of places with wrongful reviews. Your best bet would just to look around on forums and well known review sites like ones I mentioned previously.

 

[Heidfirst]

Originally posted by: steve1616but I haven't seen one forum where this motherboard is doing perfect with the E8400.

you''ll find problem posts about E8xxx series CPUs with pretty much every brand of mobo - whether it's batch problems or what a lot of people are reporting screwy reported temps & voltages.

 

[Zoomer]

Originally posted by: steve1616
... something called jumperless technology...

Wow, haven't seen this in a while. Basically, it means that you can overclock (control over fsb, multiplier, etc) in the software, and not have to dick around shifting small jumpers - think of it as changing switches - on the board itself.

You have to thank Abit SOFTMENU for kickstarting our current effortless overclocking. I think it started around the time of the BE6 - Slot 1 era.

Edit: Here's an image to illustrate: http://www.ocinside.de/assets/...k_k8combo_z_jumper.jpg

 

[Puffnstuff]

Originally posted by: steve1616
Quicksilver, I have looked at the major review sites and the Abit IP35 Pro is rated great, but I haven't seen one forum where this motherboard is doing perfect with the E8400. What board would you recommend? I still really like the feature set of the P5K Deluxe wifi, though it seems a little overpriced in its category. Newegg was the only place that I saw end user reviews. Are there other places that maybe have more knowlegable end users that might give the product the credit it may or may not deserve?

http://forum.abit-usa.com/showthread.php?t=134540

I've always been a big fan since they started coming on strong back in the late 90's. I recently installed an abit ix-38 quadgt in my sons machine and it works like a charm plus has all high quality components like digital pwm's and hard caps. Abit had a rough spot when some of their best engineers left for dfi however they seem to have recovered from it hence their current product portfolio. Plus abit has a 3 year warranty which is nice if something goes wrong and they have an online rma process.

 

[chuckm]

If you do much review checking at all, I believe you're going to find that there is NOT a board out there that is without a problem or two. Some of this can be due to manufacturer problems, such as bugs in bios, when there is an actual component problem, you usually see and updated version of the board. I really don't use customer reviews as a basis for my decisions, I may read thru them, but I go to actual review sites that do this for their bread and butter. Another thing that I see, and I don't really know why, someone can post a review on sites like this one and a few others, and not have a problem, yet someone else can have the same exact configuration and have nothing but problems. Is this luck of the draw? I know that different batches of the same CPU can vary and I also believe there is good and patches of ram. The power supply can also affect what is going to happen, it may be fine a stock settings , but when you start overclocking and raising voltages, the stability of the unit is the most important factor to consider.

 

[gpse]

I have an Asus P5K-E wifi and the quality is great, it's physically the same board as the P5K Deluxe, the only difference is the extra heatpipes the P5K Deluxe comes with. This board is more stable than the Intel DP965LT board it replaced, and Intel builds the most "stable" boards. If you can find some decent review's you'll see the Asus P5K series is very good.

 

[steve1616]

What are the benefits of the heat pipes. Would they benefit me because the E8400 runs a higher FSB, or would I even notice the difference?

 

[zig3695]

i would think OEM boards dont break as much because people who buy OEM machines never open their case with their dirty little fingers and fuck everything up

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: zig3695
i would think OEM boards dont break as much because people who buy OEM machines never open their case with their dirty little fingers and fuck everything up

My most reliable computers bar-none are my laptops. I am posting right now from a circa-2002 DELL laptop with an 800MHz P3. This sucker has never given me troubles, neither have the some odd 4 or 5 laptops I have used in the same period.

But every computer I "play" around with invariably meets its demise at my hands. I have accepted this.

I have also argued in the past that websites such as Anandtech really ought to try and do more to expand their sample size to include >1 retail samples.

To be fair though they never claim their results are to be viewed as indicative of what the average user will experience from the average retail product. But it would be value add to have this data.

Knowing the overclock potential of "1" Abit mobo is helpful, but knowing the reviewers experience when attempting to overclock the same ram, same CPU, same PSU across 5-10 mobosof the same SKU would be helpful.

Why does the DS3L get good reviews? I beleive it is because expectations are aligned. The expectations of the purchaser are aligned to reasonable overclock and performance characteristics. It is not necessarily that the board is any better or worse than a P5E. The buyer's remorse is minimized or eliminated.

You are far more likely to find bad reviews on an overhyped product because the consumer's expectations were intentionally mis-aligned from reality by pump and hype reviews.

This is my opinion, obviously. But I do own some 5 DS3L's and a myriad of other boards, and the DS3L does not overclock as much as others but I like them as they delivered exactly what I expected when I ordered them.

 

[mindless1]

Originally posted by: steve1616
What are the benefits of the heat pipes. Would they benefit me because the E8400 runs a higher FSB, or would I even notice the difference?

Heat pipes, if well engineered, can handle more heat and so are an aid to overclockers who want to raise the chipset voltage, CPU VRM (mosfet heat) voltage, etc. If you aren't heavily overclocking nor in a high ambient temp environment, stock heatsinks are fine without heat pipes in them, though certain chipsets do create more heat than others and would then have a fanned heatsink which can be noisey and less reliable.

P35 boards don't need elaborate cooling for stock bus speeds with E8400 et al.

 

[mindless1]

First, remember that people with a bad board or particular problem are a lot more likely to say something about it than those with ok boards. A big manufacturer may even censor their private forums somewhat to obfuscate the problem rates they see, but as often when an owner of an OEM system has a problem they go directly to the OEM, or have someone else handle the problem, which goes along with their OEM buying mentality to take a hands-off approach.

Second, remember that those buying boards are using multiple combinations of parts that aren't necessarily tested combinations like what an OEM does, and some parts may be of questionable quality like the PSU.

Third, consider those who overclock or change other bios settings because their board allows doing it, while many OEM systems don't.

Fourth, consider there are often more hardware features on an enthusiast class board, more things that can go wrong.

Fifth, consider that if an OEM had an alarmingly high rate of failures initially, they have a more centralized method of tracking the problem, pulling stock and substituting something else.

Sixth, OEMs have their own QC department and diagnostic software, they are a 2nd QC department before the customer gets the product and may catch problems. By testing an assembled system then not having the user handling parts after that point, there is an added likelihood it'll be working when the customer uses it.

Seventh, OEMs use professionally engineered cases and cooling designs. Home DIYers sometimes have some pretty crazy ideas about how to pick cases and cooling based on marketing drivel instead of good science. While the potential certainly exists to have better cooling than seen from an OEM system when you DIY, there's also a lot of potential for some who DIY to not test the resulting configuration adequately, like thermal zone measurements instead of just a couple of software reported chip temps.


In short, some of the problems that plague DIYers also do OEMs, like component flaws, bios bugs, but when you are doing it yourself you become that first point of fault finding, after having been the one who picks whether to get some generic no-name parts or those from a major manufacturer.

The odds are higher you will get a bad board bought separately from Newegg than in a (Dell, HP, etc) system because of the above reasons, but that doesn't necessarily mean the % manufactured with flaws was any higher.

If you want to overclock or run the system very long term, choosing a motherboard with better heatsinks and capacitors than normally found on OEM boards will be of benefit, or throw an extra fan here and there as needed.

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: steve1616
When you say over-engineer, does this mean that the big OEM's might have better quality boards than we can get from Asus, Abit, Gigabyte, etc.

There is no difference in "quality" between motherboards used by PC manufacturers and mainstream motherboard lines marketed by motherboard manufacturers under their own brands. For that matter, there is at best only a modest difference in "quality" between premium and mainstream motherboard lines.

The big OEMs control the hardware, drivers, firmware, and applications that go into their computers, all of which are vetted for compatibility and operability between the combined efforts of the OEM, contract manufacturers, and relevant vendors. DIY upgraders and builders are left to sort all that out for themselves, which requires a certain degree of technical competence to prevent erroneous conclusions or results.

Unfortunately, the only barrier to purchasing computer components is money. Affordability is relatively high for most of the population, most of whom lack that technical competence. As a result, DIY upgraders and builders are not only more likely to encounter problems, but to draw erroneous conclusions about the nature and causes.

I'm glad you raised the comparison to the high performance automotive DIY market, because its one that clearly highlights a major difference in consumer culture. There is more widespread acceptance among the culture of automotive DIY performance enthusiasts that if something isn't working right or as anticipated, far more likely than not, the problem is you.

Few persons would buy a $5000 aftermarket supercharger kit or upgrade package for their engine unless they knew what the hell they are doing. Even when an automotive performance DIY enthusiast gets in over his head, which happens all the time even to those who are not complete novices, he accepts full responsibility for overestimating his own competence and humbly seeks expert assistance that he also accepts may cost him.

But for some reason, this is far less prevalent among DIY computer enthusiast culture. Spend an hour sifting through the customer reviews for several motherboards on Newegg, particularly the negative reviews. It is hiliarious how many betray a total lack of technical competence while faulting the hardware.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: tcsenter
But for some reason, this is far less prevalent among DIY computer enthusiast culture. Spend an hour sifting through the customer reviews for several motherboards on Newegg, particularly the negative reviews. It is hiliarious how many betray a total lack of technical competence while faulting the hardware.

Would you agree that without knowing the number of DIY computer enthusiasts who are not vocal about their experiences (good or bad, competent or incompetent) that you are basically complaining that there are a non-zero number of incompetent DIY computer enthusiasts?

I don't think you have any basis to generalize a few vocal newegg posters to represent the totality of the DIY computer enthusiast community. Those newegg kids may be <1% for we know, and we'll never know, so why try and make a big deal out of it?

 

[steve1616]

I actually understand all of the points that you guys are making. I was told recently that I should buy a computer from best buy, and then upgrade it from there to meet my requirements, but this actually totally defies what I am trying to accomplish in the first place. It would be like trying to modify an OEM GM car. The OEM GM car was put together to have total compatibility with all components for a given goal (fuel mileage, power, etc.) If you modify them, then you become way worse off than if you engineered it yourself from the ground up. If you take an OEM chevy camaro, and put a high rise aluminum intake manifold on it, you just totally screwed up. The high rise manifold is engineered to give you more horsepower in the higher rpm range, while the OEM engine has a cam, fuel injection curve, etc. that makes its most power in a lower rpm range. You just effectively ruined your low end by using the new manifold, and you can't take advantage of your new manifold on the high end because your cam just ran out of valve lift and overlap to help at this rpm. I think I am on the right track with building my new computer from the ground up. I didn't skimp on anything important, and the fact that I can't make my mind up on a motherboard proves that I am weighing every good and bad point between all of the boards. My initial favorite motherboard was the Abit IP35PRo, but I found a lot of articles with RAM problems using all four slots with memory that should have worked, and I also see that they have bios issues with the E8400 that I have purchased. It really comes down to the Gigabyte and Asus brands, and I think that in the end I will probably go with the Asus. I really like a lot of things about the Gigabyte better, but there is a degree of safety that I think the Asus would give me compatibility wise.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

Wow, this thread "expanded" nicely.

Yeah, bottom-line, do not buy an off-the-shelf PC and then try to upgrade it further, as your friend suggested. Even if you do not run in to compatibility issues, hardware conficts, physical/dimensional conflicts, whatever, you'll likely not save much of anything either in $ or time. Build your own and not only will you know exactly what you have, quality and performance-wise, but use all retail parts and you end up with a built-in better warranty.

Used to be you could build your own, vs. Dell, and save $ and have a better system.

Now you can barely match their price for a system. BUT ... they want $200-300 more to give you the warranty that they used to. That just gives you more $'s to work with on your DIY system.