Is the US slowly dying?

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Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,912
2,146
126


THE BEST AND BRIGHTEST OF AMERICA AND HALF OF THEM ARE CHINESE.

It was fun while it lasted...

That's another thing- the US has lost its work ethic. Asians and Indi's seem to have an incredible work ethic driven by family honor. Most of the US is caught up in thinking that Jersey Shore and Jerry Springer are great sources of education on how to live. We've grown into an entitlement society, where everyone thinks they deserve anything they see and credit companies are willing to give it to them in 18 easy payments. Fewer and fewer people are going to college to purse engineering and science because "That stuff is too hard!" We are churning out record numbers of lawyers however. This is causing a brain-drain, and bringing innovation in the US to a halt.

I'm on an old man rant kick today
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,912
2,146
126
What happens to those numbers when you exclude energy costs/price of gasoline? Avg. price per gallon in 2005 was about $2.60. It about $3.90 today. That is a 50% increase. So I would argue that at least half of your grocery bill has increased as a result of fuel prices alone.

This nation needs to take down Exxon & Company and start investing algae-based bio diesel fuels. If we could only break our oil addiction, I think prices would deflate substantially. This of course poses its own problems.

Fuel prices wouldn't account for that large of an increase...it's a combination of factors. I agree that oil is dragging us down. I'm more optimistic on electric cars than any other form of fuel.

Even so, we're using less gas now than we did in 2001, and look at fuel prices.
 

LosDiablos

Banned
Apr 4, 2012
40
0
0
1.8 million hard-working Chinese Americans owning 220 million lazy White Americans who feel entitled to everything.
 

Connoisseur

Platinum Member
Sep 14, 2002
2,470
1
81


I believe all of them are American.


Yup. Or at least are immigrants who have no intention of going back to their origin country. Good for them. Now we're really just talking racial issues. Frankly, no one should care what race is the majority in the US. As long as they're contributing residents of said US...
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Yes, we are slowly dying. Liberals and democrats have turned us into a welfare country where everyone expects things to be given to them and they don't expect to have to work for it.
It will only get worse after Obama wins his re-election.
Soon the founding fathers will be rolling in their graves if they aren't already.

Don't kid yourself, it's a group effort to screw this country. The right makes sure that it gets harder and harder to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and the left is there to encourage it so they get a new welfare dependent voter.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,572
66
91
www.bing.com
Don't kid yourself, it's a group effort to screw this country. The right makes sure that it gets harder and harder to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and the left is there to encourage it so they get a new welfare dependent voter.

eh?

It's easier than EVER to become successful in this country.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
63
91
Yes, we are slowly dying. Liberals and democrats have turned us into a welfare country where everyone expects things to be given to them and they don't expect to have to work for it.
It will only get worse after Obama wins his re-election.
Soon the founding fathers will be rolling in their graves if they aren't already.

The republican party has been the dominant party of the last 30 years, you ignorant fucking fool.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Yup. Or at least are immigrants who have no intention of going back to their origin country. Good for them. Now we're really just talking racial issues. Frankly, no one should care what race is the majority in the US. As long as they're contributing residents of said US...

Precisely. That's *supposed* to be the glory of this country. We aren't a society comprised of a single ethnicity - where we are united, however, is in the common dreams and desires. As long as everyone contributes both to the [wasted] taxes and to the economy (and progress - if possible), we can stand up and remain.


All these people stating how the US cannot fall, how failure of government doesn't equal that because our military and "patriotism" will save us... it's time to face reality. Oh, and time to read a history book or twenty.
If the government falls, there is little we can do as a people to save the sunken ship. The only chance of a bright future would be for a new government, one that can pay the previous bills (and a society ready to accept a new beginning - and a lot of sacrificed money and happiness), to take control when the old one crumbles.

It happens - it happens to ones who were never a quality country, and it happens to ones who dominated the world.
Overextending your reach can and does happen, and it does have drastic consequences if left unchecked.

Will all of our states split off, group together, and fall into the hands of other governments? Hard to say - we have to crash first, and the geopolitical arena isn't looking all that pretty for just about anybody, so someone swooping in isn't likely.
China is destined to go through their first booming economy growing pains (market crashes) sometime in the next decade or two, again on the account of a failure to learn from history and proactively defend against common mistakes.

Also realize, such a scenario isn't about foreign troops invading and seizing territory - such power shifts, if the worst of the failure isn't happening while already engaged in a massive conflict, likely won't result in such bloodletting - it would be ugly but far more peaceful, likely a result of negotiations and some martial law (and the blood from riots), but the US being cut up or scaling back would be more like formal accords/treaties most likely.

I don't think it will necessarily happen, as I think we can stand the test of time (with a lot of work to ensure such)... but unless something drastic happens, we won't be on top of the world - either in terms of military might or as an economic superpower. We'll fall back toward "civilized, successful, 1st world, peaceful" - much like the U.K. or other like-minded countries.

But as a superpower, we are dying, and it's written very clearly on every wall we can set our eyes upon. I'd love for that to NOT be so, but where we've been, what we've done, where we're going - it all basically paints the picture very clearly, and many (including the entirety of our elected body) has simply plugged their ears yelling "mommy mommy it can't happen! we're fine! we can fix everything!"
In some ways, it's grand to have that attitude - but the actual fixing has to, you know, actually occur. It can't be made worse, all with the grand delusion that the next generation will magically come up with all the answers in the nick of time, so we can afford to dig the hole a little deeper now - because surely they'll figure out how to fill that hole back up later... right?

Just like that bullshit budget being passed around, what with slashed taxes and cutting back on federal programs. Sure, the latter is a good start... but wait, I glazed over that first part... this is the time where taxes absolutely have to be raised. Of course, a lot of us don't agree considering it will all be wasted anyway - but historically, cutting taxes + major deficits (oh, and that little war issue - tax cuts and breaks during the whole run of that? genius, btw) just doesn't work... at all.

As others have said, too many delusions of grandeur and an entitlement mentality ends up forcing the concept of sacrifice out the window. When, as a nation, we are at a time where we must make some drastic sacrifices if we want to have any importance.

Of course, I'm actually rooting for all these pestilent little riots and uprisings around the world end up pushing us closer to the brink (as a world body, not the US in particular). We drastically need a new world war, one that really shakes up the power distribution and more importantly, makes the world a far uglier place for even the best of nations. It's not about evening out the playing field, it's about changing the game... and the new league we need to join is that of a world with a united governing body. And of course, for the first few generations, it too will likely fail quite terribly - we can never get anything right.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
63
91
eh?

It's easier than EVER to become successful in this country.

Have any facts to back up your ridiculous assertion?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/u...-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all

WASHINGTON — Benjamin Franklin did it. Henry Ford did it. And American life is built on the faith that others can do it, too: rise from humble origins to economic heights. “Movin’ on up,” George Jefferson-style, is not only a sitcom song but a civil religion.

But many researchers have reached a conclusion that turns conventional wisdom on its head: Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe. The mobility gap has been widely discussed in academic circles, but a sour season of mass unemployment and street protests has moved the discussion toward center stage.

Former Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, a Republican candidate for president, warned this fall that movement “up into the middle income is actually greater, the mobility in Europe, than it is in America.” National Review, a conservative thought leader, wrote that “most Western European and English-speaking nations have higher rates of mobility.” Even Representative Paul D. Ryan, a Wisconsin Republican who argues that overall mobility remains high, recently wrote that “mobility from the very bottom up” is “where the United States lags behind.”

Liberal commentators have long emphasized class, but the attention on the right is largely new.

“It’s becoming conventional wisdom that the U.S. does not have as much mobility as most other advanced countries,” said Isabel V. Sawhill, an economist at the Brookings Institution. “I don’t think you’ll find too many people who will argue with that.”

One reason for the mobility gap may be the depth of American poverty, which leaves poor children starting especially far behind.Another may be the unusually large premiums that American employers pay for college degrees. Since children generally follow their parents’ educational trajectory, that premium increases the importance of family background and stymies people with less schooling.

At least five large studies in recent years have found the United States to be less mobile than comparable nations. A project led by Markus Jantti, an economist at a Swedish university, found that 42 percent of American men raised in the bottom fifth of incomes stay there as adults. That shows a level of persistent disadvantage much higher than in Denmark (25 percent) and Britain (30 percent) — a country famous for its class constraints.

Meanwhile, just 8 percent of American men at the bottom rose to the top fifth. That compares with 12 percent of the British and 14 percent of the Danes.

Despite frequent references to the United States as a classless society, about 62 percent of Americans (male and female) raised in the top fifth of incomes stay in the top two-fifths, according to research by the Economic Mobility Project of the Pew Charitable Trusts. Similarly, 65 percent born in the bottom fifth stay in the bottom two-fifths.

By emphasizing the influence of family background, the studies not only challenge American identity but speak to the debate about inequality. While liberals often complain that the United States has unusually large income gaps, many conservatives have argued that the system is fair because mobility is especially high, too: everyone can climb the ladder. Now the evidence suggests that America is not only less equal, but also less mobile.

John Bridgeland, a former aide to President George W. Bush who helped start Opportunity Nation, an effort to seek policy solutions, said he was “shocked” by the international comparisons. “Republicans will not feel compelled to talk about income inequality,” Mr. Bridgeland said. “But they will feel a need to talk about a lack of mobility — a lack of access to the American Dream.”

While Europe differs from the United States in culture and demographics, a more telling comparison may be with Canada, a neighbor with significant ethnic diversity. Miles Corak, an economist at the University of Ottawa, found that just 16 percent of Canadian men raised in the bottom tenth of incomes stayed there as adults, compared with 22 percent of Americans. Similarly, 26 percent of American men raised at the top tenth stayed there, but just 18 percent of Canadians.

“Family background plays more of a role in the U.S. than in most comparable countries,” Professor Corak said in an interview.

Skeptics caution that the studies measure “relative mobility” — how likely children are to move from their parents’ place in the income distribution. That is different from asking whether they have more money. Most Americans have higher incomes than their parents because the country has grown richer.

Some conservatives say this measure, called absolute mobility, is a better gauge of opportunity. A Pew study found that 81 percent of Americans have higher incomes than their parents (after accounting for family size). There is no comparable data on other countries.

Since they require two generations of data, the studies also omit immigrants, whose upward movement has long been considered an American strength. “If America is so poor in economic mobility, maybe someone should tell all these people who still want to come to the U.S.,” said Stuart M. Butler, an analyst at the Heritage Foundation.

The income compression in rival countries may also make them seem more mobile. Reihan Salam, a writer for The Daily and National Review Online, has calculated that a Danish family can move from the 10th percentile to the 90th percentile with $45,000 of additional earnings, while an American family would need an additional $93,000.

Even by measures of relative mobility, Middle America remains fluid. About 36 percent of Americans raised in the middle fifth move up as adults, while 23 percent stay on the same rung and 41 percent move down, according to Pew research. The “stickiness” appears at the top and bottom, as affluent families transmit their advantages and poor families stay trapped.

While Americans have boasted of casting off class since Poor Richard’s Almanac, until recently there has been little data.

Pioneering work in the early 1980s by Gary S. Becker, a Nobel laureate in economics, found only a mild relationship between fathers’ earnings and those of their sons. But when better data became available a decade later, another prominent economist, Gary Solon, found the bond twice as strong. Most researchers now estimate the “elasticity” of father-son earnings at 0.5, which means that for every 1 percent increase in a father’s income, his sons’ income can be expected to increase by about 0.5 percent.

In 2006 Professor Corak reviewed more than 50 studies of nine countries. He ranked Canada, Norway, Finland and Denmark as the most mobile, with the United States and Britain roughly tied at the other extreme. Sweden, Germany, and France were scattered across the middle.

The causes of America’s mobility problem are a topic of dispute — starting with the debates over poverty. The United States maintains a thinner safety net than other rich countries, leaving more children vulnerable to debilitating hardships.

Poor Americans are also more likely than foreign peers to grow up with single mothers. That places them at an elevated risk of experiencing poverty and related problems, a point frequently made by Mr. Santorum, who surged into contention in the Iowa caucuses. The United States also has uniquely high incarceration rates, and a longer history of racial stratification than its peers.

“The bottom fifth in the U.S. looks very different from the bottom fifth in other countries,” said Scott Winship, a researcher at the Brookings Institution, who wrote the article for National Review. “Poor Americans have to work their way up from a lower floor.”

A second distinguishing American trait is the pay tilt toward educated workers. While in theory that could help poor children rise — good learners can become high earners — more often it favors the children of the educated and affluent, who have access to better schools and arrive in them more prepared to learn.

“Upper-income families can invest more in their children’s education and they may have a better understanding of what it takes to get a good education,” said Eric Wanner, president of the Russell Sage Foundation, which gives grants to social scientists.

The United States is also less unionized than many of its peers, which may lower wages among the least skilled, and has public health problems, like obesity and diabetes, which can limit education and employment.

Perhaps another brake on American mobility is the sheer magnitude of the gaps between rich and the rest — the theme of the Occupy Wall Street protests, which emphasize the power of the privileged to protect their interests. Countries with less equality generally have less mobility.

Mr. Salam recently wrote that relative mobility “is overrated as a social policy goal” compared with raising incomes across the board. Parents naturally try to help their children, and a completely mobile society would mean complete insecurity: anyone could tumble any time.

But he finds the stagnation at the bottom alarming and warns that it will worsen. Most of the studies end with people born before 1970, while wage gaps, single motherhood and incarceration increased later. Until more recent data arrives, he said, “we don’t know the half of it.”
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,572
66
91
www.bing.com

spare me the tired liberal mantra. There is a big difference between not being successful because you havent tried and not being successful because there are barriers in your way. All of the "studies" you'll link to gloss over this important detail.

The costs of getting trained (especially if you are poor) are next to nothing. The costs of starting a business, especially in our tech heavy society, is lower than ever.

If people arent trying, you can blame the entitlement mentality. Kids in places like India and China are born into absolute dirt poverty yet become doctors and engineers in the USA.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Our Federal system is currently feeling the bulge of its weight. It may blow apart, it may not.
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,231
117
116
I honestly think you guys would be so much stronger if you all could get past this crazy partisanship in your political systems. Seems far worse than it used to be, when the parties would at least entertain the thought of working together; now even the mere mention of working with the other side seems to ignite both sides into a frenzy, creating a stalemate, helping nobody and hurting everyone except for a select few.

Not that our system is any better, just seems to be the way society in general operates these days; pick a side and defend it with every dying breath, never admitting fault, even it means the decline of everything surrounding us.

I sure could go for a beer. :hmm:

KT
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
eh?

It's easier than EVER to become successful in this country.

Depends on what you're trying to do. The patent system is a field of landmines. It's also hard to compete with megacorporations who tilt things in their favor via regulation that they can either afford to absorb the compliance costs, or simply are not required to follow.

CPSIA I'm looking at you.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Typical wingnut. The facts are a "liberal mantra." Every expert knows something, so therefore it's liberal claptrap

As horrid as the Republican party might be, in just a few seconds of reading your posts I hate you more than I hate them.
 

Matthiasa

Diamond Member
May 4, 2009
5,755
23
81
Our GDP could be cut in half and we would still be the most economically powerful nation in the world.
China would need gain between 8 and 9 trillion in gdp to catch up with the US and it is experiencing debt issues as well.
 
Last edited:

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
China will be #1? Not anytime soon.

Extreme pollution in water, land, air = http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/gallery/2011/feb/09/pollution-china-manufacturing-towns

Hundreds of millions Chinese live in extreme poverty (less than $2/day) = http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/30/china-raises-rural-poverty-line

China will get older (more elders depend on fewer youngings -due to 1 child policy for support) before it can get richer.

Don't forget about potential uprising in Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and other areas. China is spending more for internal security then external defense.

The rich in China are sending their money and kids to US, Canada, Australia.

Not everywhere in China is like Shanghai. See the Chinese made movie "The last train home" and see how a typical factory Chinese worker lives.
 
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Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,912
2,146
126
spare me the tired liberal mantra. There is a big difference between not being successful because you havent tried and not being successful because there are barriers in your way. All of the "studies" you'll link to gloss over this important detail.

The costs of getting trained (especially if you are poor) are next to nothing. The costs of starting a business, especially in our tech heavy society, is lower than ever.

If people arent trying, you can blame the entitlement mentality. Kids in places like India and China are born into absolute dirt poverty yet become doctors and engineers in the USA.

Oh god...one of those "if someone counters my argument I'll blame it on liberals/conservative agendas" people crawled out of PnN. WHO LEFT THE DOOR OPEN???!!! I tell you kids over and over again "Make sure the door is locked..." but do you listen? Nooooooooo.....
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,912
2,146
126
Our GDP could be cut in half and we would still be the most economically powerful nation in the world.
China would need gain between 8 and 9 trillion in gdp to catch up with the US and it is experiencing debt issues as well.

The problem is a giant portion of our GDP is on credit. It's like saying "I make $100,000/year, but I charge $60,000/year on my credit card".
 
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