Is the US slowly dying?

[Joseph F]

^^ the prevalence of idiots like this might have something to do with it...

I like your style. You insult someone, claim that you're massively intelligent, then don't bother to make a counter-argument at all. :thumbsup:

 

[SlitheryDee]

It seems that we are in a decline of sorts, but I doubt it is anything like death. In any case, we have done it to ourselves without any doubt. It wasn't some foreign power that came in to conquer us at least.

As for china, if they do overtake us they're ultimately going to suffer the same fate and be usurped by someone else. I guess all countries who have their moment have to think that they are going to be on top forever though. Honestly there's no reason that we can't keep doing what we've been doing and stay on top, but we're not, so that's that. I suppose that's what we get for having a democracy.

 

[LegendKiller]

I like your style. You insult someone, claim that you're massively intelligent, then don't bother to make a counter-argument at all. :thumbsup:

I like your style more. You lob a bomb out there and then...?

In reality, any sane person can see that the "welfare state" started long before Obama and is bi-partisan in nature.

But please, continue being insane.

 

[DominionSeraph]

I like your style. You insult someone, claim that you're massively intelligent, then don't bother to make a counter-argument at all. :thumbsup:

But of course. Only an idiot would bother with anything else in this case.

 

[Fritzo]

I like your style. You insult someone, claim that you're massively intelligent, then don't bother to make a counter-argument at all. :thumbsup:

How's this? Whoever is President gets the blame, but the position of President is a scapegoat. The President hasn't had any real power for years because congress holds the position hostage. It goes something like this:

President: Hey! let's pass this bill to help people!
Congress: We're mostly from the opposite party, so we won't pass anything you say.
President: Aww....come on guys!
Congress: Well, OK, but only if you change 80% of it. Also, we want these 1000 things added that help all of our individual interests.
President: No wai! I want this bill passed as is!
Congress: Nope. We're sitting on it.
President: The people are getting angry! OK OK, pass it with all the changes...I guess it's better than nothing.

Later....
People: WTF??? That law sucks! Screw the President!


And that, my friends, is our government.

 

[OverVolt]

So much misinformation.

http://fora.tv/2010/07/28/Niall_Ferguson_Empires_on_the_Edge_of_Chaos#fullprogram

If you have the hour to spare, just watch it. Its about empires, how they choke on their own complexity, how they decline, etc. from a historical perspective. I found it entertaining/fun to watch. But I did watch it on a day I had nothing really to do so I realize just randomly linking doesn't mean people will have the time.

You can click through sections each is about 8 minutes. Basically Ch3 - Ch 8.

 

[0roo0roo]

So much misinformation.

http://fora.tv/2010/07/28/Niall_Ferguson_Empires_on_the_Edge_of_Chaos#fullprogram

If you have the hour to spare, just watch it. Its about empires, how they choke on their own complexity, how they decline, etc. from a historical perspective. I found it entertaining/fun to watch. But I did watch it on a day I had nothing really to do so I realize just randomly linking doesn't mean people will have the time.

You can click through sections each is about 8 minutes. Basically Ch3 - Ch 8.

yea he has some good stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xx_5PuLIzc&feature=related
his civilization the west and the rest used to be on there...I guess youtube copyright police got around to removing it well its available from the usual suspects...
his most recent and on going is china Triumph and Turmoil

 

[Fritzo]

yea he has some good stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xx_5PuLIzc&feature=related
his civilization the west and the rest used to be on there...I guess youtube copyright police got around to removing it well its available from the usual suspects...
his most recent and on going is china Triumph and Turmoil

That video is FOUR HOURS???!!!

 

[Vic Vega]

...

 

[0roo0roo]

That video is FOUR HOURS???!!!

lol yea i noticed that too, i know they relaxed the upload limits, but that is impressive

 

[OverVolt]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs...s-will-exceed-defense-budget-2019_635445.html

Yup its a deathspiral if the problems aren't fixed.

The debt load has to be paid down, not just maintained at current levels etc. It would surely cause a great depression so thats the choice.

 

[PingSpike]

So, when you look at our current situation you understand how Rome went from a republic to a dictatorship and why people didn't complain much when it happened.

 

[blankslate]

Going by this

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/04/AR2007120400730.html

The scores from the 2006 Program for International Student Assessment showed that U.S. 15-year-olds trailed their peers from many industrialized countries. The average science score of U.S. students lagged behind those in 16 of 30 countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a Paris-based group that represents the world's richest countries. The U.S. students were further behind in math, trailing counterparts in 23 countries.

and a more recent one

http://aftertheamericancentury.blogspot.com/2010/12/pisa-test-results.html

where the results are worse.

I think the question is a valid one and the answers are not encouraging....

I could mention who I think is to blame but really it's not the subject of the thread.

The thing is we do have to solve the decline in the knowledge of U.S. students relative to the other developed countries or we will be in an irreversible decline.

 

[Sonikku]

This is why we should just disband the damned socialized public school system instead of just mercifully slashing and slashing their budgets. Socialism is no good and making me pay just so someones kid can get an education is getting in the way of tax cuts. (Gov Christie knows this all too well but not even he can stand up to that godless muslim socialist guy) Poor kids like their poor parents lack our superior values, that is why they're poor. Why the hell should I have to pay just so they can get an education? They should just get working class jobs to support our country and leave us to our private school institutions.

At the very least, make everything a la carte so only those with the values/wealth to send their kids to school can have a proper education. Giving everybody schooling and knowledge just makes them more difficult to control and subvert. Worse, they could riot against us. Do you seriously want that to happen? Freakin' Socialists.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Going by this

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/04/AR2007120400730.html



and a more recent one

http://aftertheamericancentury.blogspot.com/2010/12/pisa-test-results.html

where the results are worse.

I think the question is a valid one and the answers are not encouraging....

I could mention who I think is to blame but really it's not the subject of the thread.

The thing is we do have to solve the decline in the knowledge of U.S. students relative to the other developed countries or we will be in an irreversible decline.

Focusing on average test scores to make a point about a country is really the lazy way to make a point.

 

[LegendKiller]

Going by this

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/04/AR2007120400730.html



and a more recent one

http://aftertheamericancentury.blogspot.com/2010/12/pisa-test-results.html

where the results are worse.

I think the question is a valid one and the answers are not encouraging....

I could mention who I think is to blame but really it's not the subject of the thread.

The thing is we do have to solve the decline in the knowledge of U.S. students relative to the other developed countries or we will be in an irreversible decline.

There has been no decline. The US hasn't really ever been the best at educating its kids. Part of the reason for the higher test scores is that, by and large, most of those countries prevent kids that can't hack college from even taking those types of tests. They segregate the college bound and non college bound kids during middle school. For example, in Germany, college bound kids finish their high school in the Gymnasium while the non-college bound kids learn different skills at the Realschule.

So because of that it's easy to skew your results to one side. That can be remedied easily.

But you're really going to limit upward mobility.

 

[blankslate]

Focusing on average test scores to make a point about a country is really the lazy way to make a point.

Actually it's a very relevant point since tech companies in the U.S. state that they can't get all of the personnel they need to grow just from U.S. graduates.

Part of the reason for the higher test scores is that, by and large, most of those countries prevent kids that can't hack college from even taking those types of tests.

the tests are supposed to be given to a random selection of students from each country so unless the other countries are violating that policy and the U.S. isn't then your argument is not valid.

 

[Svnla]

the tests are supposed to be given to a random selection of students from each country so unless the other countries are violating that policy and the U.S. isn't then your argument is not valid.

From your own link, China was represented by students from Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Macao. Where are the rest of the students, especially from inner China? Doesn't seem to be random to me.

 

[midwestfisherman]

The US will never die. Our people will pull together in these tough time, like we have in the past. We'll bring this country back up to the standards that we're accustomed to!!

 

[SSSnail]

The US will never die. Our people will pull together in these tough time, like we have in the past. We'll bring this country back up to the standards that we're accustomed to!!

The problem is, there are a lot of factions from other countries that are bent on bringing the US down to their standards back at home, using our dimes.

 

[blankslate]

From your own link, China was represented by students from Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Macao. Where are the rest of the students, especially from inner China? Doesn't seem to be random to me.

Remove China from the results if you want. It still looks crappy for U.S. rankings.

 

[Ventanni]

The United States may be struggling right now, but China has significant, major challenges they need to address before they can continue to to grow.

For one, China's production of food is not sustainable given their massive population. There has already been widespread reports of overtaxing of aquifers, and there's undeniable evidence already of the rapid expansion of the Gobi Desert as a result of overgrazing, deforestation, and other human impact. That's not to say that the United States hasn't significantly impacted the environment of our own lands, but the simple fact remains that, as 1.3 billion people become more prosperous, so too does their energy expenditure increase.

For second, let's not beat around the bush here. China is hiding some major debt problems of their own. When the world economy hit the shitter in 2008, China, like the United States, bailed itself out. But imagine if we spent $4 trillion bailing ourselves out, and that's essentially what China did if you compare it to a percentage of their GDP. Unless China makes significant reduction in its overall debt levels, their economy will go the way Japan's did; level off.

For third, the United States had an overabundance of one specific resource that played an extremely strong contributing role to the overall economic prosperity of our nation during the 20th century; oil. China, unfortunately, will not have this [cheap] luxury during their rise in the 21st century (a luxury that isn't cheap for us anymore either).

And that leads me to this; to think that the United State is simply going to crash and burn only to be a page in the world history book, is kinda silly. Great Britain was once a world superpower. France was once a world superpower. Russia was just recently a world superpower. Sure, they may not enjoy that status like they once did, but that doesn't mean their land a smoking ruin of has-been's. The term "superpower" is simply a relative term. China, if they're able to work beyond their challenges, may supersede the United States as the world's leading economic superpower, and maybe if they steal enough of our shit, a military superpower as well, but that doesn't mean our nation is in decline.

The 21st century will be the defining moment for mankind as we begin to deplete our more easily accessible natural resources. No nation, not China, not the United States, not Russia, and not South Africa, will be free of the challenges we'll all eventually face. But the United States has weathered through far worse crises, and I'm sure our nation of intelligent people will be just fine once the "Carbon Era" of mankind is over.

Lastly, you can't directly compare test scores between nations with differing education policies. Asian nations typically employ more rote-based education systems, whereas European and American education focuses more critical thinking. Rote educated nations do typically test more favorably than those in the west, but they're still 100 years behind us to walk on the moon.

 

[zinfamous]

well past the point of no return. Any country that corrupts it's society and educational system with political correctness deserves to be kicked to the curb.

word.

care to share a hit off this bong with me, as we watch it all go down in flames?

 

[zinfamous]

LOLOLOLOLOL at the China "achievement" test used as evidence.

Put 100% of those kids in a position that demands critical thinking, and watch 100% of those kids fail.

Don't get me wrong: I work with some brilliant people that have come out of this system, but that's only because a handful of them know when to leave, and know where the good work exists.

Rote memorization is a colossal failure for developing an economic GDP structure. Just watch as this country collapses under the sandstone foundation that they have built with their lolsaurus "achievement" tests.

 

[LegendKiller]

Actually it's a very relevant point since tech companies in the U.S. state that they can't get all of the personnel they need to grow just from U.S. graduates.



the tests are supposed to be given to a random selection of students from each country so unless the other countries are violating that policy and the U.S. isn't then your argument is not valid.

The student population chosen is usually very selective, depending on the country.

The problem isn't the schools, its the parents and the culture and it hasn't really declined at all. The idea that America was anywhere near the top in education is laughable. As is ripping on the federal education system when every single one of those countries has a federal education system.