Is this illegal?

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Tarrant64

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Tarrant64

Originally posted by: waggy
hope he gets it just to piss everyone off.

everyone (unless you have mental issues) should be allowed to carry.

That's just stupid.

Dari, I hope you get denied a permit. Having to even post about whether or not you'd be in the wrong for shooting someone in the head for attacking you should be grounds to deny one.

This is something you should take to a lawyer or those in charge of giving out the permits. I'd be disgusted with myself taking advice from random posters on a forum whether or not it'd be OK to shoot the next guy who appears to be attacking me with a knife while out for my evening run.

If it's dangerous to do so, don't go out and run at night. If you're looking a thrill to shoot anyone without hesitation for approaching you with a knife you have mental problems yourself, and as waggy says, you shouldn't be allowed to carry.

Why? It's both legal and moral. Why should we suck the dicks of criminals just because they're willing to do harm to others? We have every right to defend ourselves, and millions do every year.

WTF?

PrinceOfDicks...Wands, yes we have every right to defend ourselves, and sure millions do every year. But you don't hear or see or know of anyone who shoots to kill another in the name of self defense all the time.

I don't know the exact statute name (wasn't in my state where I know the laws), but it was effectively unlawful discharge of a firearm, reckless endangerment and some type of attempted assault charge. In other words they found him to be the total aggressor in the situation because he wasn't shooting to kill.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones

Originally posted by: jonks

before I reply, got a link to the story?

Here's the poster's original story (site down at the moment)

www.dravness.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=86

Here is a recap from a few weeks ago (the event is several years old)

http://www.ar15.com/forums/top...=1&f=5&t=741945&page=1

Thanks. I'm looking on my own, but got any news articles by any chance? His laymen interpretation of what happened to him isn't what I was looking for.

ED: I read through the whole thread and there were shens calls even there. They point out a few inconsistencies or strange things in the story. I'm not saying it's definitely false, just that a self-defense shooting resulting in 2 dead gang members would make the papers somewhere, and if it happened in 2002 the news articles should be easily available online.

So trying to argue the legality of the charges he claims he faced is difficult if I don't know whether I'm arguing against a fictional character. On reflection, I'm calling shens until I see some sort of supporting evidence that this story really happened.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Tarrant64

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Tarrant64

Originally posted by: waggy
hope he gets it just to piss everyone off.

everyone (unless you have mental issues) should be allowed to carry.

That's just stupid.

Dari, I hope you get denied a permit. Having to even post about whether or not you'd be in the wrong for shooting someone in the head for attacking you should be grounds to deny one.

This is something you should take to a lawyer or those in charge of giving out the permits. I'd be disgusted with myself taking advice from random posters on a forum whether or not it'd be OK to shoot the next guy who appears to be attacking me with a knife while out for my evening run.

If it's dangerous to do so, don't go out and run at night. If you're looking a thrill to shoot anyone without hesitation for approaching you with a knife you have mental problems yourself, and as waggy says, you shouldn't be allowed to carry.

Why? It's both legal and moral. Why should we suck the dicks of criminals just because they're willing to do harm to others? We have every right to defend ourselves, and millions do every year.

WTF?

PrinceOfDicks...Wands, yes we have every right to defend ourselves, and sure millions do every year. But you don't hear or see or know of anyone who shoots to kill another in the name of self defense all the time.

Every class I've ever taken teaches you to shoot to kill. Every law enforcement officer I've ever spoken with agrees that while you don't go looking for trouble, you don't need to change your life to avoid having to stand up for yourself either. A large number of people I know and associate with carry concealed more or less 24/7 for just this contingency.

I can't even imagine someone choosing their actions based on the potential for conflict...it's a totally foreign concept to me.

It's a matter of political correctness and semantics. Shooting to stop the threat is the way to go- but what's your best shot at stopping the threat? It all ends up the same way..it's just how it's perceived by everyone else..

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Tarrant64

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Lots of misinformation here.

I don't know of any state where you have the right to shoot to kill. You shoot to STOP. The DA finds out that you were shooting to kill, your ass is going through the wringer.

Both situations are justifications (in TX anyway) for use of force. You don't use a gun to dissuade someone or to scare them off. It has to be to the point where you have to defend yourself. If the assailant stops, then you stop. You don't get to be pro-active with it.

If you shoot someone in the head, you should prepare for a big legal battle as well as other consequences. Several years ago a guy was walking with his date. Two guys jump out and he shoots both, one in the head. The DA argued that shooting them in the head was excessive force. The guy was acquitted, but not after racking up some $80k in attorney fees. The guys he shot were gang members as well and will spend the remainder of his life looking over his shoulder. I think it even got to the point where he had to move.

Conversely, one guy I worked with was sent to prison for shooting to stop instead of shooting to kill because if you aren't shooting to kill you aren't in fear for your life. Well, to be more accurate he fired at the tires of the car coming at him to stop the vehicle without killing the person driving. The judge agreed that had he fired at the person it would have been legal.

What was he charged with?

Same question here.

What the heck happened here? Why would someone attempt to run him over? There's got to me more to it than that, seriously.

Not really. He was a fugitive retrieval officer (bounty hunter). He found his lady, she went into an alley, he followed her, she got into a car and drove down the alley at him, he fired at her car (radiator and tires) to stop her getting to the street (and running him over in the process obviously). That's the whole story.

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: zinfamous
Are more and more people coming around to the idea that maybe some people really shouldn't be allowed to own firearms?

I think people had these viewpoints before VT. Or are you just looking for some sort of incident to strengthen your shoddy assertion?

 

[Tarrant64]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Tarrant64

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Tarrant64

Originally posted by: waggy
hope he gets it just to piss everyone off.

everyone (unless you have mental issues) should be allowed to carry.

That's just stupid.

Dari, I hope you get denied a permit. Having to even post about whether or not you'd be in the wrong for shooting someone in the head for attacking you should be grounds to deny one.

This is something you should take to a lawyer or those in charge of giving out the permits. I'd be disgusted with myself taking advice from random posters on a forum whether or not it'd be OK to shoot the next guy who appears to be attacking me with a knife while out for my evening run.

If it's dangerous to do so, don't go out and run at night. If you're looking a thrill to shoot anyone without hesitation for approaching you with a knife you have mental problems yourself, and as waggy says, you shouldn't be allowed to carry.

Why? It's both legal and moral. Why should we suck the dicks of criminals just because they're willing to do harm to others? We have every right to defend ourselves, and millions do every year.

WTF?

PrinceOfDicks...Wands, yes we have every right to defend ourselves, and sure millions do every year. But you don't hear or see or know of anyone who shoots to kill another in the name of self defense all the time.

Every class I've ever taken teaches you to shoot to kill. Every law enforcement officer I've ever spoken with agrees that while you don't go looking for trouble, you don't need to change your life to avoid having to stand up for yourself either. A large number of people I know and associate with carry concealed more or less 24/7 for just this contingency.

I can't even imagine someone choosing their actions based on the potential for conflict...it's a totally foreign concept to me.

Maybe this is one of the biggest problems in our society then. I want to say, I do agree on the "no need to change your life to avoid standing up for youself."

This whole thing can come down to "it depends". Different circumstances call for different actions, you at least get that, right?

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Tarrant64

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Tarrant64

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Tarrant64

Originally posted by: waggy
hope he gets it just to piss everyone off.

everyone (unless you have mental issues) should be allowed to carry.

That's just stupid.

Dari, I hope you get denied a permit. Having to even post about whether or not you'd be in the wrong for shooting someone in the head for attacking you should be grounds to deny one.

This is something you should take to a lawyer or those in charge of giving out the permits. I'd be disgusted with myself taking advice from random posters on a forum whether or not it'd be OK to shoot the next guy who appears to be attacking me with a knife while out for my evening run.

If it's dangerous to do so, don't go out and run at night. If you're looking a thrill to shoot anyone without hesitation for approaching you with a knife you have mental problems yourself, and as waggy says, you shouldn't be allowed to carry.

Why? It's both legal and moral. Why should we suck the dicks of criminals just because they're willing to do harm to others? We have every right to defend ourselves, and millions do every year.

WTF?

PrinceOfDicks...Wands, yes we have every right to defend ourselves, and sure millions do every year. But you don't hear or see or know of anyone who shoots to kill another in the name of self defense all the time.

Every class I've ever taken teaches you to shoot to kill. Every law enforcement officer I've ever spoken with agrees that while you don't go looking for trouble, you don't need to change your life to avoid having to stand up for yourself either. A large number of people I know and associate with carry concealed more or less 24/7 for just this contingency.

I can't even imagine someone choosing their actions based on the potential for conflict...it's a totally foreign concept to me.

Maybe this is one of the biggest problems in our society then. I want to say, I do agree on the "no need to change your life to avoid standing up for youself."

This whole thing can come down to "it depends". Different circumstances call for different actions, you at least get that, right?

Nope. You are legally required to shoot to kill...anything less and you're not in fear for life (at least in practice if not in the letter of the law). If you don't shoot to kill then you'll miss more, and be killed yourself. If you don't shoot to kill the attacker will have more chance to kill you. Period.

If you draw a weapon and the threat doesn't IMMEDIATELY end you must shoot to kill. That means center mass, fire till they drop.

 

[Tarrant64]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Not really. He was a fugitive retrieval officer (bounty hunter). He found his lady, she went into an alley, he followed her, she got into a car and drove down the alley at him, he fired at her car (radiator and tires) to stop her getting to the street (and running him over in the process obviously). That's the whole story.

Found the link from above, 'kinda' makes more sense now.

 

[Capt Caveman]

All I know is that I'm going running tonight along the River in the big city. Do I need to bring a gun along to feel safe?

 

[FallenHero]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones

Originally posted by: FallenHero
My first question would be...why are you aiming for the head?

Most likely place to get instant incapacitation which is what you want. Unfortunately it brings up all sorts of other problems.

Such as I dunno...MISSING YOUR TARGET under stress. I realize WHY a headshot is nice for instant threat reduction, however actually hitting it in a high stress, quick draw, fast moving situation is an entirely different manner.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones

Originally posted by: FallenHero
My first question would be...why are you aiming for the head?

Most likely place to get instant incapacitation which is what you want. Unfortunately it brings up all sorts of other problems.

Such as I dunno...MISSING YOUR TARGET under stress. I realize WHY a headshot is nice for instant threat reduction, however actually hitting it in a high stress, quick draw, fast moving situation is an entirely different manner.

Ah, the difference between 'I read it on the internet' and 'practical experience/application'.

 

[skyking]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Tarrant64

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Lots of misinformation here.

I don't know of any state where you have the right to shoot to kill. You shoot to STOP. The DA finds out that you were shooting to kill, your ass is going through the wringer.

Both situations are justifications (in TX anyway) for use of force. You don't use a gun to dissuade someone or to scare them off. It has to be to the point where you have to defend yourself. If the assailant stops, then you stop. You don't get to be pro-active with it.

If you shoot someone in the head, you should prepare for a big legal battle as well as other consequences. Several years ago a guy was walking with his date. Two guys jump out and he shoots both, one in the head. The DA argued that shooting them in the head was excessive force. The guy was acquitted, but not after racking up some $80k in attorney fees. The guys he shot were gang members as well and will spend the remainder of his life looking over his shoulder. I think it even got to the point where he had to move.

Conversely, one guy I worked with was sent to prison for shooting to stop instead of shooting to kill because if you aren't shooting to kill you aren't in fear for your life. Well, to be more accurate he fired at the tires of the car coming at him to stop the vehicle without killing the person driving. The judge agreed that had he fired at the person it would have been legal.

What was he charged with?

Same question here.

What the heck happened here? Why would someone attempt to run him over? There's got to me more to it than that, seriously.

Not really. He was a fugitive retrieval officer (bounty hunter). He found his lady, she went into an alley, he followed her, she got into a car and drove down the alley at him, he fired at her car (radiator and tires) to stop her getting to the street (and running him over in the process obviously). That's the whole story.

It was proper that he got charged with something. Capping off a couple of rounds is quite irresponsible, those rounds can kill someone else a good distance away.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: skyking

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Tarrant64

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Lots of misinformation here.

I don't know of any state where you have the right to shoot to kill. You shoot to STOP. The DA finds out that you were shooting to kill, your ass is going through the wringer.

Both situations are justifications (in TX anyway) for use of force. You don't use a gun to dissuade someone or to scare them off. It has to be to the point where you have to defend yourself. If the assailant stops, then you stop. You don't get to be pro-active with it.

If you shoot someone in the head, you should prepare for a big legal battle as well as other consequences. Several years ago a guy was walking with his date. Two guys jump out and he shoots both, one in the head. The DA argued that shooting them in the head was excessive force. The guy was acquitted, but not after racking up some $80k in attorney fees. The guys he shot were gang members as well and will spend the remainder of his life looking over his shoulder. I think it even got to the point where he had to move.

Conversely, one guy I worked with was sent to prison for shooting to stop instead of shooting to kill because if you aren't shooting to kill you aren't in fear for your life. Well, to be more accurate he fired at the tires of the car coming at him to stop the vehicle without killing the person driving. The judge agreed that had he fired at the person it would have been legal.

What was he charged with?

Same question here.

What the heck happened here? Why would someone attempt to run him over? There's got to me more to it than that, seriously.

Not really. He was a fugitive retrieval officer (bounty hunter). He found his lady, she went into an alley, he followed her, she got into a car and drove down the alley at him, he fired at her car (radiator and tires) to stop her getting to the street (and running him over in the process obviously). That's the whole story.

It was proper that he got charged with something. Capping off a couple of rounds is quite irresponsible, those rounds can kill someone else a good distance away.

I agree that it was wrong, he should have been shooting to kill. It's all good and well to not want to kill someone, but if you're not going to kill you don't draw. At the point she was driving at him all he should have thought of was staying alive, and that means killing her. It's just sad that in our society we're forced to kill when it isn't strictly necessary.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
What if you're in a situation where you are being threatened, but when you pull the gun, the perp runs away or surrenders?

If he runs away, do you chase after him? Just call the police?

If he puts his hands up and surrenders, then what? Hold him at gunpoint while you call the police and wait for them to come and arrest him?

if he runs away and you shoot thats murder.

if eh drops the knife and puts his hands up you call 911.

Agreed. Although it gets a little sticky if after you call police he then decides to run, testing his luck. I wouldn't shoot, and would update the police with his actions, but what exactly is the right thing to do at that point?

Do not pursue. Stay on the phone with police and have them come out to take a statement (or, if they ask for you to come in, you should go to them). It is vitally important for you to get a statement on record about the event. The last thing you want to have happen (well, aside from actually having to shoot someone, which is always the true last thing anyone should want to happen) is for you to draw, have the assailant run away, and then have the assailant call the police to report you for brandishing ("I was just walking along minding my own business when this guy pulls a gun on me!").

You want to call the police first. The assumption (generally correct, but not always) being that the person who avoids calling the police is the person with something to hide. If you give chase or if you neglect to call the police, you will be in for a less-than-fun inside look at our legal system.

ZV

 

[FallenHero]

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: FallenHero

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones

Originally posted by: FallenHero
My first question would be...why are you aiming for the head?

Most likely place to get instant incapacitation which is what you want. Unfortunately it brings up all sorts of other problems.

Such as I dunno...MISSING YOUR TARGET under stress. I realize WHY a headshot is nice for instant threat reduction, however actually hitting it in a high stress, quick draw, fast moving situation is an entirely different manner.

Ah, the difference between 'I read it on the internet' and 'practical experience/application'.

No kidding. Although I am sure that isn't what Bruno was implying, so it wasn't meant as an attack on him or anything.

I still remember some of the best firearm training I've had like it was yesterday. Walking forward, pretending to see a gun on a traffic stop, drawing and firing while retreating to take cover against a target that is moving...holy crap.

After that, it was me and another guy practicing room entries with him providing covering fire while I moved from cover to cover.

I shoot perfect during qualifications (or near perfect.) My shots were on paper, but all over during that training. Doing that makes you think twice about how "good" you are at shooting.

 

[mooncancook]

Originally posted by: Dari
2. Somebody pulls a gun on me. I take out my legal concealed gun, aim for their head, and shoot, killing them.

How do you pull that off without getting killed?

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Dari
1. Somebody pulls a knife on me. I take out my legal concealed gun, aim for their head, and shoot, killing them.

2. Somebody pulls a gun on me. I take out my legal concealed gun, aim for their head, and shoot, killing them.

Am I supposed to warn them after I've pulled out my weapon? Can I shoot to kill or do I have to maim them?

3. Somebody pulls a gun on you. You take out your mace and aim for their face, and spray, distracting them. You run like hell.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Dari
1. Somebody pulls a knife on me. I take out my legal concealed gun, aim for their head, and shoot, killing them.

2. Somebody pulls a gun on me. I take out my legal concealed gun, aim for their head, and shoot, killing them.

Am I supposed to warn them after I've pulled out my weapon? Can I shoot to kill or do I have to maim them?

3. Somebody pulls a gun on you. You take out your mace and aim for their face, and spray, distracting them. You run like hell.

4. The target is unaffected by the spray and puts 5 in your back while you try to run.

 

[SirStev0]

Depends on the cops and the state laws.

Hopefully yes.

 

[SirStev0]

by yes I mean legal.

 

[buck]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I can't imagine running with a gun, I'd be worried it would accidentally fire and shoot off my wang.

KT

:laugh: ditto

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Dari
1. Somebody pulls a knife on me. I take out my legal concealed gun, aim for their head, and shoot, killing them.

2. Somebody pulls a gun on me. I take out my legal concealed gun, aim for their head, and shoot, killing them.

Am I supposed to warn them after I've pulled out my weapon? Can I shoot to kill or do I have to maim them?

3. Somebody pulls a gun on you. You take out your mace and aim for their face, and spray, distracting them. You run like hell.

Mace is illegal in New York.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
OP - are you fucking my wife?

Yes.

Okay, you're a pussy.

You are what you eat.

You're his wife?

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I can't imagine running with a gun,

KT

Why? You run faster that way.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Alright, I'm going running.

Handgun - check
Taser - check
Machete - check
Retractable baton - check

Wish me luck, I hope I make it back!