Is Transportation possible?

[Confide]

My question is this, Would it be possible to use a supercomputer to take an object apart molecule by molecule, physically turning it into energy, while memorizing the exact formation, then transfer that energy and exact makeup to another supercomputer which could take that energy and change it back into matter, exactly as it was just in a new location? i know... sounds treky... but im serious is it possible? if so what equipment might you need? is this a possiblity in our future?
What do you think?


Confide.

 

[stebesplace]

willie wonka style man. . .thats all i have to say.

I belive in our future, maby not mine, but the next, we will see something on a small scale of this. There are just so many complications that its unbelivable to imagine how it can be done. If a partical gets 'lost', for example, what would happen to the rest of the object? Like this question and many more, are the roadblocks that stand before us and the future.

-Steve

 

[Confide]

the problems are most definately mind boggling, what about signal degradation, i know very far fetched but i've heard some stories of things that they're working on at Lawerence Livermore Labs on this scale, but heresay aside i wanted to see what the real experts think, all of us nerds... hahah

 

[jasonpetras]

This is probably our closest hope. Although it does require a person to go faster than the speed of light (not currently possible with our current understanding of physics). http://www.cakes.mcmail.com/StarTrek/worm.htm

 

[Shalmanese]

look up quantum transportation.

 

[FuriousBroccoli]

Just though I'd point out that this would never be used for people, because it's suicide. Just because you create an exact copy, doesn't make it you. That's the biggest flaw they gloss over in sci-fi shows like Startrek.

 

[dejitaru]

Originally posted by: FuriousBroccoli
Just though I'd point out that this would never be used for people, because it's suicide. Just because you create an exact copy, doesn't make it you. That's the biggest flaw they gloss over in sci-fi shows like Startrek.

Yeah, I'm a tech fan, but I'll never get over that.

Rather than duplicating the body, it could be liquified such that rapid acceleration would not be damaging. Maybe "you soup" could travel through plastic tubing to be reconstructed on the other end.

You could use the quantum transport to duplicate machinery or food items.

 

[dakels]

I thought this was funny. Any person who could actually say yes and how to the original question would be the one to change the face of humanity beyond recognition. I'm no physics expert but it seems to me, if you had the ability to "transport" any object, you'd effectively have the ability to create anything you wanted. If this was possible, I don't see the need to send the object via energy anyways. All you'd have to do is map out the structure and then send the schematics and use energy on the other end to replicate it. Control over energy and matter. That would mean control over your whole existance in this spacetime. Near omnipotence over the building blocks of our existnace as we know it. It would also require such a complete understanding on what matter and energy is and it's relationship to each other and every other subatomic particle which makes up our universe. To understand all this seems like near omniscience to me as well. OK I am going way off the deep end here and I can't even describe the comolexity what I am thinking, espcially from here at work

Anywhoo I think the clostest thing you will see to this is maybe a is a simple replicator of form. Like I scan something, email you the schematics and you have a device that creates a 3D model of the form I sent you. We already have stuff like this that uses types of rubber/plastic to create a 3D model but uses a simple chemical substance to create it. The coolest thing I have seen or heard of was this device that took a 3D image of your brain or skull or whatever, then using this photosensitive ooze (looked like "ectoplasm") to create a 3D model. Lasers draw out the shapes in the ooze. The ooze reacting to light solidifies to replicate the model it was told to recreate. I'm sure in the futre we will have alot more complex substances then just some plastic ooze but I don't even know if the laws of physics will allow converting matter to energy and then back to matter again. Then again... what really is energy?

am i making any sense at all?

 

[stebesplace]

I also try to think of it like this. Lets say we have a cube. What makes up this cube? Wood, Paint, Dirt, Greese, etc, etc, etc. Now you have to create layers of these molecules. So, one layer is of the wood, one of the paint etc. . .

Then you would have to 'flatten' each molecule to be one molecule flat, by however many are long, only two dimensions. Then move them through your space medium, and have them gather into a sespool on the other side. Before doing this, you need to assign a value to each molecule, and then find its chemical bond, to reapply it to the correct bond afterwords. As well, you will bee to have a 3d reference object with all the molecule points, and locations to assist the computer to rebuild the object.

Pretty crazy huh? Thats just kids stuff. . .

Think about it like there was 11 dimensions. See, we only know of 3 to 5 dimensions, depending on who's talking. Imagine if there were 11 or 12 dimensions. Then we might possibly be able to equate a problem that could solve the issue with placing all molecules back in their original location, provided we had the right compound bond that co exsisted between the original objects molecules.

mmmmmm yea, someday.

-Steve

 

[rayster]

Originally posted by: FuriousBroccoli
Just though I'd point out that this would never be used for people, because it's suicide. Just because you create an exact copy, doesn't make it you. That's the biggest flaw they gloss over in sci-fi shows like Startrek.

Not to argue metaphysics, but if I knock you out, make a copy of you, completely indistinguishable from you, and destroy the original, the copy will wake up believing itself to be you. It will live out it's life exactly as you would've, and to all the people it encountered it would be you. So for all practical considerations, it's you. So how does having a prior knowledge of the copy process make you a different individual? Your bodies cells die and are replaced by new ones constantly, and undoubtedly the actual atom and molecules that make of the substances and substructures of your bodies cells have been replaced over and over. Again, if nature can substitute one set of building materials for another without compromising your identity, why would this process?

 

[FuriousBroccoli]

Originally posted by: rayster
Not to argue metaphysics .... identity....

First of all, the human process is slightly different. First and most importantly, most of your brain doesn't regenerate. Secondly, the regeneration that does occur is a very slow and gradual process. If you define consciousness as the collective whole, then small changes over time are perfectly acceptable, from a metaphysical standpoint.

As for our transportation machine, it's not a matter of identity. For all intents and purposes to everyone else, including your copy, you'd be you, except for one key thing, the original you, your consciousness, is gone. The simple acid test is, if you can transport, you can clone, and you can assert that an identical clone is distinct in its consciousness from yours, thus it is not you as far as you, and only you, are concerned.

Unfortunately, I value my consciousness a bit more than I do my identity, but perhaps that's just me...

 

[blahblah99]

I don't think its possible for human beings since the cells interact with one another. In order to pull off a feat this large in scale, it would require time to be at a standstill to "freeze" the interactions between the cells, but the paradox is if time is frozen, then computers wouldn't getting their clock cycles needed to compute!

 

[dejitaru]

cryogeny

 

[Shalmanese]

The whole metaphysics varies quite a bit with who you talk to and is not nearly as clear cut as you think, Broccoli.

If you are a dualist (you believe the mind-stuff is sperate from the body-stuff) like broccoli is, then yes, you would also need to devise a mind transporter. However, among philosophical circles (note: philosophical, not theological), pure dualism isn't taken very seriously anymore since it has some major problems.

It all depends on what criterion you use for personal identity.

Theres quite a bit of philosophical work on this very issue.

 

[FuriousBroccoli]

Originally posted by: Shalmanese
The whole metaphysics varies quite a bit with who you talk to and is not nearly as clear cut as you think, Broccoli.

If you are a dualist

I am not a dualist!!

I would have thought this was clear from my statement about making a clone. If your transporter instead clones someone, I expect them to be two distinct consciousnesses, no metaphysical fourth dimension linking them or any such thing.

First of all, you still seem to have a contrived definition of self. Merely indistinguishable (qualitatively identical) != "Actually" the same (numerically identical). You're in the minority if you don't accept this. For our purposes, that is, consciousness is continuous (diachronically identical). If you don't believe this, then please go and jump out of a window right now, because it doesn't matter, you have no persistent consciousness, therefore you were never really alive.

Now, what I do believe in, is the diachronical definition of consciousness. That is, you are yourself as long as whatever elements of your brain define consciousness, in their STRUCTURE, persist through time. I certainly do not believe, nor do most, that just because you destroy and reconstruct something in the same instance, it is to be considered persistence of that object. Therefore, a transporter always kills you. Even one which moves your actual particles, because the structure is lost temporarily.

 

[Akira13]

Perhaps using the DeBroigle wavelength principle, we can send things (and/or people) over great distances at the speed of light. I don't remember a lot from physics, but all matter can be modeled as waves. A wave is just a method of energy transfer. Just a thought. Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[mechBgon]

Is Transportation possible?

Definitely. My old Oldsmobile station wagon can transport as much as 800 pounds of Sheetrock, or up to 8 humans Gotta love those air-assist rear struts...

Ah, but you meant Star-Trek style. Not on a practical level, I don't think. E=mc^2. If m = 100kg, that's a heck of a lot of E.

 

[dkozloski]

To answer the original question; anything within the realm of imagination is within the real of possibility.

 

[Ben50]

If we could create a true copy of ourselves, maybe we could also use that device to prevent us from ever dying of natural causes. We could just keep "renewing" our cells with new copies.

 

[RossGr]

My apologies for nitpicking, As was pointed out about I can use any car for TRANSPORTATION, heck even my bicycle is good transportation. What this thread seems to be about is not simply transportation but TELEPORTATION.

And no I do not believe that it will ever be possilbe to teleport a human being, simply because there is more to a human then simple atoms. The essence of a human is stored electricly in the brains nuerons. How can you ever trace out these patterns?

The body could be done, the life force? This is the work of gods, will we ever attain this knowledge? Perhaps, perhaps not we are not even close to it now, if our civilization lasts another 1000 or 10000 years who can know what is possible.

 

[FuriousBroccoli]

Originally posted by: RossGr

And no I do not believe that it will ever be possilbe to teleport a human being, simply because there is more to a human then simple atoms. The essence of a human is stored electricly in the brains nuerons. How can you ever trace out these patterns?
The body could be done, the life force?

See Shalmanese, there's a dualist

BTW, RossGr, we can assume a matter teletransporter would recreate electrons too, and while it may be a difficult process to map them, it's not something that is only attainable by "God". It's still suicide though, plain and clear, unless you're one of those Mental State Continuity nuts like Nozick, Parfit or Shalmanese.

 

[RossGr]

it's not something that is only attainable by "God".

I did not use the g word! The essence of life is outside of the understanding of modern physics, we can determine quite precisely the chemical content of a human body, we can understand the chemical processes that sustain life, but we can only guess at the processes by which the brain stores information, yes it is an electrical phenomena, yes it involves patterns of electrical stimulation of nurons (am I spelling that right?) Put how we would actually recognize a pattern as a meaningful bit of knowledge or a memory and not just noise? We are not even close to this capability now, will it ever be possilbe?

We must recognize that there exists information which nature has blocked any possibility of us atttaining, ie position and momentum of a electorn. Could it be that to precisely record the memories and knowledge of a human being that this is the exact type of information that we would need? If that is the case Hesienberg may be standing between us and your "god"

Maybe Heisenberg is god!

 

[pexidecimal]

I don't think were considering everything here. Of cource, the terms i keep seeing, energy, conciousness etc. are all in how you look at it. I tend to think sentience is a much better term to use than conciousness. I also think the ethical practices involved in the above arguments are very similar to cloning. But what i ask, gives one sentience and self-awareness. In my perspective, im saying sentience is a static factor. I surmize sentient is a combination of wel awareness at three points in time, past, present, and future. I think we then gain sentience when we compare these three points and realize ourselves in a spacious present of sorts. I can easily say memory is a key factor in this. So i point you to this site, http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=2009

The article discusses a rare brain defect that developes while in fetal deevlopement. The cranium fills with an abnormal ammount of cerebral fluid, making brain growth and developement impossible or severely limited. The man in question from the article was found to nave essentialy no brain at all. Besides a small ammount of cerebral tissue atop the spinal column, there is no scientific explaination that would permit this man to live. With physical body functions asside, he retains a sence of self and a complete memory, even a genious level iq as the article states. So if this man was "transported" and a duplicate of himself made, how is it possible he would retain his previous memory, considering he has no place to store memorys. Would this "transport" really make a duplicate in this mans case?

I think in order for us to create such a transporting device, we need to, as a species, find out why we exist.

 

[dejitaru]

My question is this, Would it be possible to use a supercomputer to take an object apart molecule by molecule, physically turning it into energy

I don't think that could be done without cloning.

You could, perhaps, cool the body to less than one degree K, such that there would be no fluid and little molecular movement. Separate the body into atoms, heat to plasma. Transfer.

 

[FuriousBroccoli]

He may not have much of a brain, but he does have one, so I wouldn't abandon the realm of conventional science just yet. Cases of severe hydrocephalus where the subject isn't also severely retarded have shown that the brain is quite amazing in its ability to adapt to extenuating circumstances. We do need our big fat brains though, it sort of gives us a redundancy. 95% of people with hydrocephalus are going to have some sort of mental defect, this guy just got lucky.