Is USB-C inherently more complex than Micro-usb?

[desura]

I'm sure that you guys are aware of the Google engineer's exploits regarding type c cables.

Now, how much should we worry about our micro-USB cables? If he can find so many defective cables, doesn't that mean that many of the cables most of us use are also defective?

Or is it a case of type-c being higher spec and more complex, so cutting corners results in worse damage?

 

[ChronoReverse]

The particular flaw in this one, connecting power to data and vice versa, is something that would have blown up micro-USB as well. It was sheer incompetence really.

 

[VashHT]

I'm sure that you guys are aware of the Google engineer's exploits regarding type c cables.

Now, how much should we worry about our micro-USB cables? If he can find so many defective cables, doesn't that mean that many of the cables most of us use are also defective?

Or is it a case of type-c being higher spec and more complex, so cutting corners results in worse damage?

I think the main reason we're seeing it more with USB-C is a)because someone is actually checking and b) because USB-C allows for higher charging current and some manufacturers aren't configuring it correctly and the cable is trying to pull higher current than the source can manage. I saw this personally, where an incorrectly designed cable would "charge rapidly" from my old wallwart, but when I switched to a correctly designed cable it was just "charging" at the normal rate.

So yes maybe it is more "complex", but from what I read from that engineers reviews it's just one configuration resistor so it's more manufacturers not reading the specs before they design something.

 

[pm]

Link to what we are talking about:
http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/3/10905432/usb-c-cable-fries-google-engineers-computer

The GND pin on the Type-A plug is tied to the Vbus pins on the Type-C plug. The Vbus pin on the Type-A plug is tied to GND on the Type-C plug.

So basically it's just totally wired backwards - power is ground and ground is power. Totally bonehead stupid. If someone wired a USB 2.0/3.0 cable backwards you would - at minimum - blow up the USB port on the laptop such that it would be permanently dead, and you could blow out the power supply IC's as well such that the whole laptop would be dead. You could do the same sort of damage as the Google guy showed with the older spec, although most likely you'd just have a dead USB port.

I completely agree with VashHT. The reason this is a big deal is that USB-C is new, and there's a guy reviewing the cables so we have a guy looking for issues whereas before you just judged by the Amazon reviews. But also the potential for problems with USB-C is higher because USB2.0/3.0 are 5V@1.5A max (7.5W) and the new USB-C go as high as 20V@5A (100W). Clearly you can make more smoke with more voltage and current... but you could do a fair bit of damage with the old 5V@1.5A USB chargers too - there's plenty of videos of people's phones on fire due to bad USB2.0/3.0 cables.

USB Power Spec:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Power

 

[GTRagnarok]

Is the connector durable? MicroUSB connectors have those two springy teeth that always gets loose over time.

 

[Graze]

Wire any bloody usb cable wrong and it could fry the USB controller.
I have done it with USB 2.0 and my tinkering projects.

 

[TheStu]

Is the connector durable? MicroUSB connectors have those two springy teeth that always gets loose over time.

To me it certainly seems more durable and snug than MicroUSB ever did. Time will tell for sure though.

All of this about shoddy cables just reinforces the idea that if you buy 20 cables for $2, they are probably crap. With USB-C, the terribly made cables now have the opportunity to ruin your whole day. By from reputable brands, and you'll be fine.

 

[tsupersonic]

To me it certainly seems more durable and snug than MicroUSB ever did. Time will tell for sure though.

All of this about shoddy cables just reinforces the idea that if you buy 20 cables for $2, they are probably crap. With USB-C, the terribly made cables now have the opportunity to ruin your whole day. By from reputable brands, and you'll be fine.

I'd also say the USB-C connector is far more durable than microUSB, but time will tell. Not just reputable brands, but only buy from the list of approved/reviewed cables by Benson Leung.

 

[TheStu]

I'd also say the USB-C connector is far more durable than microUSB, but time will tell. Not just reputable brands, but only buy from the list of approved/reviewed cables by Benson Leung.

Right now he's mostly reviewing A>C cables, and MicroB>C adapters. His stuff seems to be more targeted toward phone users, as there aren't all that many 50W+ USB A power bricks that could be used to charge the Pixel, XPS13/15, or rMB12

 

[tsupersonic]

Right now he's mostly reviewing A>C cables, and MicroB>C adapters. His stuff seems to be more targeted toward phone users, as there aren't all that many 50W+ USB A power bricks that could be used to charge the Pixel, XPS13/15, or rMB12

True. This is fine for now, as there are a plethora of USB type C phones (5x, 6p, OP2, 950/XL + growing). My guess is we'll see more USB type C phone at MWC, and hopefully more laptops as well. USB type C has lots of growing potential, and I hope companies start to build proper cables.

 

[paperwastage]

I completely agree with VashHT. The reason this is a big deal is that USB-C is new, and there's a guy reviewing the cables so we have a guy looking for issues whereas before you just judged by the Amazon reviews. But also the potential for problems with USB-C is higher because USB2.0/3.0 are 5V@1.5A max (7.5W) and the new USB-C go as high as 20V@5A (100W). Clearly you can make more smoke with more voltage and current... but you could do a fair bit of damage with the old 5V@1.5A USB chargers too - there's plenty of videos of people's phones on fire due to bad USB2.0/3.0 cables.

USB Power Spec:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Power

USB Type-C is still a mess though

power delivery specs are optional

google's usb-type C charger does 5V/3A
https://store.google.com/product/usb_c_charger

macbook charger usb type-c does 14.5V/2A

none of them actually fit in the power delivery profiles listed
http://www.hardwarezone.com.my/tech...ry-specs-complete-capable-100w-power-delivery
http://plugable.com/2015/04/27/usb-charging-past-present-and-future-type-c

you can charge your Macbook with a standard thirdparty usb-type C charger that implements the proper power delivery specs(didn't say which one).. but the charger that came with your macbook can't do anything (except probably profile 1, 5V @ 2A)......

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204360



sigh...... if you have a nexus 6p and a macbook, you won't find (yet???) a charger that charges both of them "optimally".... can still charge a nexus 6p using a macbook or vice versa, likely at 5V/2A

 

[stlc8tr]

USB Type-C is still a mess though

power delivery specs are optional

google's usb-type C charger does 5V/3A
https://store.google.com/product/usb_c_charger

macbook charger usb type-c does 14.5V/2A

none of them actually fit in the power delivery profiles listed
http://www.hardwarezone.com.my/tech...ry-specs-complete-capable-100w-power-delivery
http://plugable.com/2015/04/27/usb-charging-past-present-and-future-type-c

you can charge your Macbook with a standard thirdparty usb-type C charger that implements the proper power delivery specs(didn't say which one).. but the charger that came with your macbook can't do anything (except probably profile 1, 5V @ 2A)......

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204360



sigh...... if you have a nexus 6p and a macbook, you won't find (yet???) a charger that charges both of them "optimally".... can still charge a nexus 6p using a macbook or vice versa, likely at 5V/2A

Doesn't the 60W Pixel charger support profiles 1-4?

https://store.google.com/product/universal_type_c_60w_charger

 

[paperwastage]

probably. I was originally talking about the nexus 6p usb type charger (does 5v/3a only)



And you can see how confusing this can become... Especially when the devices don't even list out the proper profile numbers

Sigh.... Think my parents would bother to figure out which 'universal' type c charger they need, when they get a typeC device in the future?

Universal 15w or universal 60w?

Or Apple's nonuniversal 29w charger(officially it does not list 5v/2A...a "universal" 10w charger)

 

[shabby]

Universal 15w or universal 60w?

They'll need the universal universal charger.

 

[WelshBloke]

USB Type-C is still a mess though

Isn't USB-C just the standard for the plug?

USB 3/3.1 etc covers all the other stuff.

 

[paperwastage]

Isn't USB-C just the standard for the plug?

USB 3/3.1 etc covers all the other stuff.

ok then. USB-C is still a mess. it's a specification for the physical plug

the actual electrical connection could still be strictly usb 2.0 (nexus 6p) or usb 3/3.1

the power specifications are optional, you can see different companies implementing it differently

how is this good?

 

[WelshBloke]

ok then. USB-C is still a mess. it's a specification for the physical plug

the actual electrical connection could still be strictly usb 2.0 (nexus 6p) or usb 3/3.1

the power specifications are optional, you can see different companies implementing it differently

how is this good?

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

If you want usb 3.1 buy something compliant with that.

If you want usb c buy that.

If you want both make sure it complies with both.

(This is assuming that makers stay within spec which is a different issue).

If we eventually want a physical connector that fulfils multiple roles we are going to have to look at more than just the spec of the physical connector.

 

[paperwastage]

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

If you want usb 3.1 buy something compliant with that.

If you want usb c buy that.

If you want both make sure it complies with both.

(This is assuming that makers stay within spec which is a different issue).

If we eventually want a physical connector that fulfils multiple roles we are going to have to look at more than just the spec of the physical connector.

that's the issue.... consumers don't look at technical specs....

they see - hey, my macbook 12" has a type-C port and a type-C charger
my nexus 6P has the same thing (type-C port and type-C charger)

why does it take 3x as long for my nexus 6p charger to charge my macbook? what's usb 3.1?

even when they look at the technical specs, it's not clear

remember, people have been pushing for type-C, saying that it can replace everything (can charge small devices like phones, large devices like laptops)

 

[WelshBloke]

remember, people have been pushing for type-C, saying that it can replace everything (can charge small devices like phones, large devices like laptops)

Well it can. Thing is that it's a connecter, what on the other end matters as well.

 

[ChronoReverse]

why does it take 3x as long for my nexus 6p charger to charge my macbook? what's usb 3.1?

Even Apple users know that chargers aren't created equal. You're making a mountain out of a molehill anyway.

 

[paperwastage]

Even Apple users know that chargers aren't created equal. You're making a mountain out of a molehill anyway.

that's my point exactly

we've all moved over to usb type-c.... yay!!! one cable for all, no proprietary magsafe/lightning/DC-input 4.0*1.70 plugs....

oh wait, chargers aren't fully compatible (for high-speed charging).... :|. I can't find a single charger to do high-speed charging on my nexus 6p AND macbook 12", so I have to carry both of them around...

it's a half-way solution right now, especially if the chargers don't explicitly say what power profiles/... they support. i think the power profiles is a good idea (pixelC charger can do levels 1-4. my phone is level1, so yay, it works)... but no one's following that

 

[ChronoReverse]

Eh, you plug it in and it charges. Standard has achieved its purpose. We've been doing that the entire time with USB and people are used to it. Sometimes your devices uses more power than your adapter provides. You use another one

Again, mountains out of molehills

 

[William Gaatjes]

USB Type-C is still a mess though

power delivery specs are optional

google's usb-type C charger does 5V/3A
https://store.google.com/product/usb_c_charger

macbook charger usb type-c does 14.5V/2A

none of them actually fit in the power delivery profiles listed
http://www.hardwarezone.com.my/tech...ry-specs-complete-capable-100w-power-delivery
http://plugable.com/2015/04/27/usb-charging-past-present-and-future-type-c

you can charge your Macbook with a standard thirdparty usb-type C charger that implements the proper power delivery specs(didn't say which one).. but the charger that came with your macbook can't do anything (except probably profile 1, 5V @ 2A)......

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204360



sigh...... if you have a nexus 6p and a macbook, you won't find (yet???) a charger that charges both of them "optimally".... can still charge a nexus 6p using a macbook or vice versa, likely at 5V/2A

The power profiles are a bit messy.
Here is from the USB.org power delivery text :

A.1 Profile Definitions
There are the following profiles based on Fixed Supply Objects:
 Profile 0 reserved
 Profile 1 capable of supplying at least 5V @ 2.0A
 Profile 2 ports are capable of supplying at least 5V@ 2.0A, 12V @ 1.5A.
 Profile 3 ports are capable of supplying at least 5V @ 2.0A, 12V @ 3A.
 Profile 4 ports are capable of supplying at least 5V @ 2.0A, 12V and 20V at 3A respectively.
 Profile 5 ports are capable of supplying at least 5V @ 2.0A, 12V and 20V at 5A respectively.
Power Profiles are defined to overlap such that a Device that requires a Profile 2 Source will operate equally well
when connected to a Profile 2 or any higher Profile Source.
Sources may have additional capabilities. For example a Source might advertise 5V @ 3.0A, 12V and 15V at 1.5A
respectively. It is a Profile 2 Source because it meets the Profile 2 requirements to supply 5V @ 2.0A and 12V @ 1.5A.
The fact that it can also supply 5V @ 3.0A and 15V will have no effect on a Device that wants a Profile 2 source.
Profile 5 Sources that are capable of 100W operation are subject to various worldwide safety standards. In order to
meet the most common safety standards, the continuous output power cannot exceed 100W and the continuous
output current cannot exceed 5A. The industry is well versed in meeting the safety requirements for such power
sources (e.g. Wall Warts). Refer to Figure A-1 for an interpretation of the safety requirements imposed by
IEC/UL60950 Table 2B.

And Apple is i guess... Being Apple.

From the USB.org power delivery document, i read that a PDO (Power Data Object) has 10 bits to describe the voltage in steps of 50mV/step. If i am not wrong, that means (b19-b10) B2^10 -1 = 1023 * 0.05V = 51.15V. That is the maximum voltage that can be described. Since voltages can be described in 50mV steps and apple has 14.5V, i think it is possible to do so by using vendor specific messages.
I am thinking Apple has gone that road. Which will only work with Apple equipment understanding the vendor(Apple) specific messages .

I guess that is for future generations. USB.org chose the voltage in the profiles of 5V,12V and 20V for a reason :

A.2 Voltage Selection Rationale
Voltages used by the profiles were not picked randomly; this section describes the rationale behind the choices.
5V is the USB default that must be supported to provide interoperability with existing Devices. However, higher
voltages are needed to provide more power through USB connectors because of their current carrying capability.
12V was selected because it is very common in PCs and many other systems. The current limitation of the Micro USB
Connector family is 3A for the enhanced PD version. The use of 12V with 3A provides sufficient power to charge
tablets in the 20-30W range that use the Micro USB Connector.
20V was selected because larger systems, such as notebooks, often have 4 lithium cells in series and require charging
voltages in the 18-20V range. A sampling of systems showed that chargers for these systems were typically 19.5-20V.
Typical systems had chargers that supplied between 60W and 100W with the exception of a few very high-end
performance systems that were well over 100W. The 5A current limit of the PD enhanced Standard-A and Standard-B
connectors, with 20V allows up to 100W to be delivered to charge this class of Devices.

In this post, there is a link to all relevant documents for those interested :

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37947837&postcount=2

 

[paperwastage]

Thanks William

It makes more sense now

Let's see if the manufacturers actually follow the standard. They really should advertise the power profile modes on the box

 

[Gunbuster]

Cant wait for this to be a warranty disaster. I envision the big companies getting away from packing a charger/cable like they do with printers so in the future when a "China Joe Quality FadeCo. cable you bought re-branded by (insert almost legit US re-seller here) smokes your gear they can say too bad, so sad. Warranty on your $600+ Phone/Tablet/2-in-1 device is void thanks to a $7 purchase.