Is watercooling worth it?

[silverdj]

I was wondering if adding water-cooling to my system would help out with temps and future mods or if fans would be the better way to go. Thanks for any help and bumps are always welcome.

 

[apex32]

I have a watercooled system. I love it, it has allowed me to overclock a lot more with great temperatures. I run an AMD 3500+ at 2.8ghz and it is still a lower temperature than i had at stock speeds with a aircooler. Not to mention if you buy good parts it will still be very quiet. I was also able to overclock my GPU significantly more with watercooling. Its a good investment if thats what you want to do with it.

edit: Idle temp right now of my CPU @ 2.8 is 29*C. My videocard is 30*C. Also load temperatures dont spike like they would on air, because the water has to heat up, and it doesnt get to air temperatures no matter how long you leave it at load. I would go with water, but thats just me.

 

[jgigz]

I agree with apex, it really has a lot to do with if you want a cooler quieter computer (dont we all). I wanted to do water cooling but I've had to pass on it seeing as with college it wouldnt be that great to haul it to and fro, but if you have no problem with spending the money then enjoy the water cooling.

 

[iscsidude]

Originally posted by: silverdj
I was wondering if adding water-cooling to my system would help out with temps and future mods or if fans would be the better way to go. Thanks for any help and bumps are always welcome.

Always a good ( and likely debatable ) question.
What are your priorities?
Noise? Temps? OC capabilities? ???????

I've debated these factors, and for me, I've switched to water cooling.

It's not better or worse than Air if you want to run a nice stock config.

Other than higher maintenance, .

I assure you water will be higher maintenance.
The beauty of Air is you never have to check levels. Seems to be plenty to go around.
The problem with Water is you always have to check levels.

That is unless you guard your system with something like mCubed's BigNG or other shutdown device. (Alphacool comes to mind and I'm sure there are others)

You really need to weigh the benefit of water cooling and its noise/temps as opposed to the hassle free world of air with higher noise/temps.

Plain and simple, watercooling is a pain.
O rings, PTFE, rads, pumps, leaks, barbs, nickel vs. plastic, rads (which one), fans (Yate Loon vs. anything) and the list goes on.

 

[aigomorla]

pain huh???

Not worth the price??

Max OC on Opty 175

My Loaded Core Temps on CPU and GPU

My loop1
My loop 2
My loop 3


If you have the money to invest, go for it, you couldnt be happier.

Thats all i need to say :]

Just PLEASE and i say this really loud, PLEASE get a decient kit or custom your parts. DO NOT GET ThermalTAKE. DO NOT GET Koolance. DO NOT GET SOME CHEAP PUT TOGETHER KIT THATS sub 160 (only 1 exception to this clause, and thats the corsiar nautulis500) <--- but thats what i would call entry lvl watercooling.


DO NOT GET THERMALTAKE. <--- im saying this twice for a reason. seriously stay far away from them.

Get a custom kit from petratech, or swiftech's apex220 h2o. You cant go wrong with these.


And ignore the guy at top. Anyone that would even recomend alphacool has no idea on watercooling to OC specs.

BTW: maintence... ummmm every 6-8months if you used a closed loop to change fluid. But some have gone longer, up to 1 yr without changing fluid. Fluid lvls dont go down like crazy, u dont see yourself putting radiator fluid in a car very often now do you?

Leaks??? if you do it right, you shouldnt leak. Even if you do, if you use the right coolant, IE Distiled H2O, its non conductive. Just turn your comp off without panicing, and wipe it off. Let it dry, fix the leak. The only time i ever leaked was due to a faulty barb from DD. it went all over the bottom video card, and guess what??? ITS STILL WORKING 100% fine.

Once again dont listen to the guy up top. He has no idea what he's talking about.

Also incase your PUMP ever did die, most MB has an emergency shutdown feature when your core temps get too high. You should set this even if your on AIR incase of some unforseen accident.

Also most pumps are raited at 50,000h. I dont think FANS are raited that high, so the chances of a pump dying on you is less then a FAN dying on the CPU HSF. You dont see that happening very often.

 

[jkresh]

as others have said it realy depends on what you want. If you want moderate overclocks, noise and temps then its certainly an improvement over air. If you want insane overclocks or are planning on only cooling 1 part (ie in the processor, not graphics, drives, nothrbridge...) then a custom phase kit might make sense. I recommend you take a lookocf as they tend to talk alot more about water then here. If you arent looking to spend a fair amount (>200) or dont have a case that easily accommodates water (120mm fans are good, as you dont want anything less then a 120mm radiator). Then dont bother as a realy good hsf can match most cheap water kits.

 

[cpl edge]

well, aigomorla, you have some good looking temps there, that is the best (and most stable) temps i will never see on water. i went the cheap route. i.e. a less than a hundred bucks gigabyte kit, and i am very pleased with it. it is not a huge system, the temps go up when under load, but they stabilize quickly and speedfan just adjusts the radiator fan accordingly. i bought a gpu waterblock separately from DD and just added it to the existing CPU loop so it works in-line with it. im sure that limits my overclocking slightly, but im happy with the stable numbers i have. personally, i would prefer a slightly larger radiator or tank, to take up for my GPU addition, but it works fine for now.

 

[iscsidude]

Actually, if you are considering water cooling I wouldn't recommend a kit at all.

You should really start by buying a case that supports water cooling. This will allow you to install a radiator without modifications and have plenty of room for pumps, reservoirs and tubing.
Can you say MountainMods ?

There is room to fit a Thermochill PA 120.3 radiator as well as an additional radiator on the back (for a second loop) if one desires.

Since I know of no kits providing the cooling capabilities of a Thermochill PA series, I wouldn't recommend buying a kit. The fins on this rad are far enough apart to allow low CFM fans to cool with low noise. Alternatives include the Swiftech MCR and Black Ice offerings. Pick your poison.

As far as blocks, get an Apogee GT or D-TEK Fusion. Storm is also good but not if you plan on going quad core near term. Again, not in many kits. For tubing, use Tygon 1/2" or MasterKleer 7/16". Barbs, why not Danger Den 1/2" High Flow or EK with G1/4" threads. Don't forget the O rings and/or PTFE tape for those barbs. Just don't waste your time with 1/4" barbs or tubing.

On to pumps. Many like the Laing MCP355 DDC+ with an aftermarket top. The top is from Petra, Alphacool or Radical and provides greater flow than the stock DDC+. Don't confuse the DDC+ (18w) with the Laing MCP350 DDC (12w) as the latter is decidedly inferior in today's discussion. Then again you may want to go with the MCP655. Or, exotics like Eheim or Iwaki. 120v or 24v respectively. The choices are many. Just keep in mind the impact of 120v or 24v since your power supply doesn't provide a Molex

Oh yeah, that Thermochill radiator will require G3/8" threads so don't forget to buy those from Thermochill or Farnell. (Farnell=$16 shipping for a $2 barb) Every now and then you can find them in the US, but likely sold out at places like Cooltechina.

Reservoirs. People seem to like the Swiftech MCRES-Micro as it comes with ample mounting hardware. Others like the AlphaCool Cape or EK series.

Now that you have the goods, what are you going to use to prevent algae and minimize the clogging of those high $ blocks. Hmmm. Some use PT_Nuke and Pentosin. Others use Zerex Antifreeze with a bit of iodine (or not). Then again, you will find a smattering of those using exotics like Fluid XP+ and other UV reactive stuff (Swiftech HydrX) that is nothing but expensive. Some will claim being non conductive and the fact is they are no more non conductive than distilled water. Most will clog and cloud your tubing.

Am I making my point on what a pain water cooling is ???

If so, jump in like I did and be prepared for the pitfalls and rewards.

 

[iscsidude]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
pain huh???

And ignore the guy at top. Anyone that would even recomend alphacool has no idea on watercooling to OC specs.

LOL. Alphacool was used in reference to a controller. Not a Water Cooling solution. :laugh:

Here is the controller I was referencing:
Alphacool BigNG Controller

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: jkresh
as others have said it realy depends on what you want. If you want moderate overclocks, noise and temps then its certainly an improvement over air. If you want insane overclocks or are planning on only cooling 1 part (ie in the processor, not graphics, drives, nothrbridge...) then a custom phase kit might make sense. I recommend you take a look<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbar...ocforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=71</a>">ocf</a> as they tend to talk alot more about water then here. If you arent looking to spend a fair amount (>200) or dont have a case that easily accommodates water (120mm fans are good, as you dont want anything less then a 120mm radiator). Then dont bother as a realy good hsf can match most cheap water kits.

Hes right, a Good HSF can match cheap watercooling kits. Thats why i recomended staying away from thermalcrap bigwater.

However, i have posted my results, and i have posted my temps, and no one on air has yet to come near my temps.

If your going to invest in h2o, do it right. Dont cheeze, or your going to be another unhappy water person who flames watercooling kits.

Also Xtremesystems.org is far more informed on H2O cooling then any website i can think of. Thats where i learned all my basics, and thats where i still goto if i have problems which i cant solve.

Originally posted by: iscsidude

Originally posted by: aigomorla
pain huh???

And ignore the guy at top. Anyone that would even recomend alphacool has no idea on watercooling to OC specs.

LOL. Alphacool was used in reference to a controller. Not a Water Cooling solution. :laugh:

Here is the controller I was referencing:
Alphacool BigNG Controller

Your confusing the hell out of me. It seems you know your watercooling stuff, yet i dont see why your having issues with it?

Maybe i can help you on fixing your system or tweeking it. You should PM if you need advice, i have helped tons of people on setting up water, and not 1 has yet to complain!


Drop me a PM if you want some advice. :]


And yeah i take back my comment, if he's recomending stuff on that level, hes not that much of a noob. Sorry iscs. :]

A Kit anyone would recomend

Thats a petratech custom kit. It has 2 out of the 3 parts icsc listed. It has a DDC-2 and a Dtek fusion. The radiator is swiftech's but its performance isnt that far from thermochill. Did i mention that it also costs 1/3rd the price for a few C's difference.

U cant go wrong with that kit or a swiftech APEX 220.


Reason why i recomend a kit is because you get EVERYTHING you need to setup. So no setting up and realizing u forgot to buy something. Petratech's has a nicer manual, for people that are new, and will perform better then swiftech's unless you get the apogeeGT revision for a quadcore.

 

[WoodButcher]

Thermaltake was one of my bigger mistakes, I"ve used some of the parts in the system I've got now,
100% usage and idle I broke most of the rules, 1/4" tubing, one of the pumps is a thermalpuke, the cpu block is also thermalspew, as are two 120mm rads. The reason I've good temps is a chiller-pipe (for want of a better name) I made that lays in a closet on my basement floor. I'll be looking at blocks. I'll need CPU, north and south for the commando. I'll need to run 7/16" tubing and replace the thermalpiss pump. I don't think I'll go water on the vid card as I've got it acceptable on air for my needs.
See, I didn't flame thermalscrotum too badly, did I?

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: WoodButcher
Thermaltake was one of my bigger mistakes, I"ve used some of the parts in the system I've got now,
100% usage and idle I broke most of the rules, 1/4" tubing, one of the pumps is a thermalpuke, the cpu block is also thermalspew, as are two 120mm rads. The reason I've good temps is a chiller-pipe (for want of a better name) I made that lays in a closet on my basement floor. I'll be looking at blocks. I'll need CPU, north and south for the commando. I'll need to run 7/16" tubing and replace the thermalpiss pump. I don't think I'll go water on the vid card as I've got it acceptable on air for my needs.
See, I didn't flame thermalscrotum too badly, did I?

AHAHAHAHAHA..... <--- not laughing at you, but at your last comment.

Anyhow, WOW, im fairly impressed at your temps. I think you should bump that baby to 1.45 and see if you can hit 3.6ghz like most E6600's are hitting on h2o.

Also, GPU blocks arent that bad of an investment. I'll most likely be putting one of my DD Maze4's on the FS thread. Reciently picked up some EK blocks to replace them. But i recomend that if your running a 7900GT or 8800GTS or X as it doesnt make a difference.


Once again... nice temps!

 

[WoodButcher]

thanks aigomorla, This board won't oc any higher. I'm moving to the commando w/ 8500 memory as soon as my money is right.
I'll also do the cooling right, Is there a thin wall tubing available? Thick ropes snaking around my case ar obnoxious to me. Just a personal obsevation but bothersome to me none the less.
I don't expect these temps to hold In summer as I'm depending on the temp of my house foundation. (basement bedroom) Should keep below room temps at any rate.

 

[nealh]

Originally posted by: iscsidude
Actually, if you are considering water cooling I wouldn't recommend a kit at all.

You should really start by buying a case that supports water cooling. This will allow you to install a radiator without modifications and have plenty of room for pumps, reservoirs and tubing.
Can you say MountainMods ?

There is room to fit a Thermochill PA 120.3 radiator as well as an additional radiator on the back (for a second loop) if one desires.

Since I know of no kits providing the cooling capabilities of a Thermochill PA series, I wouldn't recommend buying a kit. The fins on this rad are far enough apart to allow low CFM fans to cool with low noise. Alternatives include the Swiftech MCR and Black Ice offerings. Pick your poison.

As far as blocks, get an Apogee GT or D-TEK Fusion. Storm is also good but not if you plan on going quad core near term. Again, not in many kits. For tubing, use Tygon 1/2" or MasterKleer 7/16". Barbs, why not Danger Den 1/2" High Flow or EK with G1/4" threads. Don't forget the O rings and/or PTFE tape for those barbs. Just don't waste your time with 1/4" barbs or tubing.

On to pumps. Many like the Laing MCP355 DDC+ with an aftermarket top. The top is from Petra, Alphacool or Radical and provides greater flow than the stock DDC+. Don't confuse the DDC+ (18w) with the Laing MCP350 DDC (12w) as the latter is decidedly inferior in today's discussion. Then again you may want to go with the MCP655. Or, exotics like Eheim or Iwaki. 120v or 24v respectively. The choices are many. Just keep in mind the impact of 120v or 24v since your power supply doesn't provide a Molex

Oh yeah, that Thermochill radiator will require G3/8" threads so don't forget to buy those from Thermochill or Farnell. (Farnell=$16 shipping for a $2 barb) Every now and then you can find them in the US, but likely sold out at places like Cooltechina.

Reservoirs. People seem to like the Swiftech MCRES-Micro as it comes with ample mounting hardware. Others like the AlphaCool Cape or EK series.

Now that you have the goods, what are you going to use to prevent algae and minimize the clogging of those high $ blocks. Hmmm. Some use PT_Nuke and Pentosin. Others use Zerex Antifreeze with a bit of iodine (or not). Then again, you will find a smattering of those using exotics like Fluid XP+ and other UV reactive stuff (Swiftech HydrX) that is nothing but expensive. Some will claim being non conductive and the fact is they are no more non conductive than distilled water. Most will clog and cloud your tubing.

Am I making my point on what a pain water cooling is ???

If so, jump in like I did and be prepared for the pitfalls and rewards.

good points but ..storm rev2 will be fine for a quad core, perfect no..2C or so worse vs newer blocks probably..no reason I see to replace my block yet

I check water levels every 1-2mo..takes 5 sec...no real issue

I use a T-Line no res and cap it with a stalk of cd spindle.."creidiki plug"(HEHE..I named it after him for its simplicity) for the guy at XS who recommended
avoid a res. IMHO...

coolant..distilled H20 and Pentosin/Zerex or Petra additive are fine...

Petra's shop has excellent kits that will work fanatstic...complete DIY is great though

no better rad than PA120.3 but its huge and expensive(with that said if I had a case to fit I would buy it in a second)

Stay away from the Radiical top for the DDC pumps...I bought one..it was found not to be such a great performer....anyone want to buy it..unused and cheap..PM

Alphacool top/Petra top are awesome for the DDC pump

Watercooling takes thought, and some case mods usually..but its fine and addictive....

 

[Cogman]

I Had a water cooling system before, however I ended up giving it up for air cooling. Here is what.

1. The reason I switched back to air cooling is simply because my brother killed my computer by not plugging in the pump. (Grr, that was a bit irritating, he said "Yah, the cpu keeps overheating and I don't know why, this was while I was away). So, you have to worry about pump failure or stupid people with a water cooling system.

2. Just switching the motherboard and cpu out of the case was a Nightmare, something that I found out when I installed the system was there are no standard screws for a water cooling system, so really I would Highly recommend getting a case that was built for water cooling (if you want it that badly.)

3. Currently, air cooling had caught up with water cooling in a big way, Yes, it is not as good as water cooling, but it is a lot better then it was 3 years ago (when I built my water cooling system) If you want to get even better then water cooling temps on air, you could easily invest in a pelter, cold plate and a high end HS for probably around $100-$150 (might be more as I believe you need a second power supply) I spent around $300 for my water cooling system, the Heatsinks alone are around $50, for a good one.

4. The "Water cooling is much quieter" argument is true, but not THAT true. Don't get me wrong, my computer was dead quiet with water cooling, but switching back to air, it is about the same noise, maybe a little louder.

5. Even the most complicated air systems are much easier to use then a water cooling system. With a water cooling system you can just install and forget, You have to leak check, monitor water levels, make sure you have your flow going in the right order (Do you want the water to go through the radiator, then the storage then the cpu? What about a gpu, just after the CPU. Is you radiator powerful enough to handle a good gpu?)

6. Did I mention Ease of use? Yah, targon tubing is a pain to deal with, most of the time I had my case open, just because I did not want to cut and waist tubes (yeah that was a bit stupid on my part).

Now, if none of those things really bother you then go for it, for me, however, Air cooling is definitely good enough.

 

[jkresh]

One thing to consider, if your water budget gets to $300 and you are just planning on processor (ie not gpu, chipset ...) OCZ is supposed to have a phase kit out "soon" for < 400 which will be much better for processor (though who knows when/if it will come out and as with all but some custom phase it will only work with the processor).

 

[nealh]

Originally posted by: jkresh
One thing to consider, if your water budget gets to $300 and you are just planning on processor (ie not gpu, chipset ...) OCZ is supposed to have a phase kit out "soon" for < 400 which will be much better for processor (though who knows when/if it will come out and as with all but some custom phase it will only work with the processor).

the OCZ phase has been rumored so long and cost is a true unknown..I would not wait for this...

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: Cogman
I Had a water cooling system before, however I ended up giving it up for air cooling. Here is what.

1. The reason I switched back to air cooling is simply because my brother killed my computer by not plugging in the pump. (Grr, that was a bit irritating, he said "Yah, the cpu keeps overheating and I don't know why, this was while I was away). So, you have to worry about pump failure or stupid people with a water cooling system.

2. Just switching the motherboard and cpu out of the case was a Nightmare, something that I found out when I installed the system was there are no standard screws for a water cooling system, so really I would Highly recommend getting a case that was built for water cooling (if you want it that badly.)

3. Currently, air cooling had caught up with water cooling in a big way, Yes, it is not as good as water cooling, but it is a lot better then it was 3 years ago (when I built my water cooling system) If you want to get even better then water cooling temps on air, you could easily invest in a pelter, cold plate and a high end HS for probably around $100-$150 (might be more as I believe you need a second power supply) I spent around $300 for my water cooling system, the Heatsinks alone are around $50, for a good one.

4. The "Water cooling is much quieter" argument is true, but not THAT true. Don't get me wrong, my computer was dead quiet with water cooling, but switching back to air, it is about the same noise, maybe a little louder.

5. Even the most complicated air systems are much easier to use then a water cooling system. With a water cooling system you can just install and forget, You have to leak check, monitor water levels, make sure you have your flow going in the right order (Do you want the water to go through the radiator, then the storage then the cpu? What about a gpu, just after the CPU. Is you radiator powerful enough to handle a good gpu?)

6. Did I mention Ease of use? Yah, targon tubing is a pain to deal with, most of the time I had my case open, just because I did not want to cut and waist tubes (yeah that was a bit stupid on my part).

Now, if none of those things really bother you then go for it, for me, however, Air cooling is definitely good enough.

Watercooling has evolved in 3 yrs. Trust me, its not the same. Pumps are now DC, so you dont have to plug it in a AC. even then theres relays.

Air in noway can catch up to water. And air cooling a petiler <--- i love when people say this, it shows how little they know about TEC. If you dont believe me that tec air products sucks, the moonson vigor, or any air cooled tec product would have to struggle and be extremely loud to get near my watercool temps.

Noise vs air on water is significantly less. Assuming you have the same cooling capacity on both products, it would take far less undervolting of a fan on the radiator to cool the same as a simular air setup. In other words, Air cooling at MAX = low/mid fan on water. So please dont compare the two on noise without comparing performance as well.

OMG how is setting up a watercooling rig difficult? Because everyone thinks is so dayam hard, i think i'll write a basic guide on how to setup a water. Im due for a remodel on my loop since i sold my QX. I hope when i do write the guide, it becomes a sticky.

Targon tubing??? ROFL.... u must be one rich mofo to afford tubing at 2.99 / feet.

Masterkleer at 7/16ID is much easier to work with in turns. Also costs .49 / feet at petra vs 2.99 / feet for tygon.


I JUST WANT TO ADD THIS BECAUSE IM TIRED OF PEOPLE SAYING AIR COOLING A TEC OWNS. NO IT DOESNT if you say this, YOUR A STRAIGHT UP NOOB. I dont care how much you know about TEC. If you think its possible to cool a hotside on AIR for a TEC at the required voltage ~227Watt TEC plate is required if your applying directly to CPU. It Just not POSSIBLE to cool on AIR. a 226W TEC will STRESS and i SAY STRESS a 120x3 Radiator if you dont have adaquate flow. SO ANYONE THAT READS THIS PLEASE KEEP THIS IN MIND, AIR COOLED TEC's ARE STRAIGHT UP POINTLESS!.


NOTES ON TEC. *direct copy from xtremesystems on TEC setups* READ IT LEARN IT AND DONT NOOB STATE ABOUT TEC's Im seriously TIRED of people passing FAKE statements saying AIRCOOLED TEC's are the best.
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Here are a few examples with difference watt TECs cooling a modern processor which usually generate around 60+ watts of heat. Practice the formula on at least one of these examples before calculating Delta T for your own project!

*) A 40watt TEC cooling a modern processor generating 60-watts of heat.
Delta T = -34C (negative 34C). Thatâ??s an INCREASE in temperature on the cold side, so the processor would have been warmer than before! Using an under powered TEC can destroy the processor. Cooking your CPU with your TEC is NOT a good thing, avoid this common mistake.

*) A 60-watt TEC cooling a modern processor generating 60-watts of heat.
Delta T = 0 (no change in temp). Congratulations, youâ??ve accomplished nothing!

*) A 176-watt TEC cooling a modern processor generating 60-watts of heat.
Delta T = 46C. Thatâ??s a decrease in temperature on the cold side, making the cold-side 46C cooler than the hot-side. Not bad.

*) A 226-watt TEC cooling a modern processor generating 60-watts of heat.
Delta T = 51C. Thatâ??s a decrease in temperature on the cold-side, making the cold-side 50C colder than the warm-side. Even better, but it took a lot more energy from the TEC (28% increase from 176-watt TEC) to get an additional 5C (only 11% increase in Delta T).

Conclusions from the Examples
The larger the wattage of the TEC in proportion to the watts of heat generated by the heat load (CPU) the closer delta T approaches the theoretical limit of 69C. But, the closer you get to the theoretical limit (in this case 69C) the more and more watts it takes for the TEC to achieve it. Thus the less efficient it becomes. Fortunately itâ??s not like TECs were the kings of efficiency to begin with.


Also this is from xtremesystems on that same sticky on TEC.

- The Critical Element: Controlling the Temperature of the Hot-Side -

As we have seen from the example above, you must control the hot-sideâ??s temperature to achieve a given temperature on the cold-side. This, however, can be more difficult than it seems.

Letâ??s say Bob wants to cool his XP 2000+ which generates 60-watts of heat. Bob just so happens to have a â??Magic Heatsinkâ?? that magically cools a heat load of 60-watts to room temperature (in this case room temp is 25C, remember that). Not a bad heatsink (must be a Thermalright). So Bob figures, â??If I attach this bad boy to the hot-side of my 226-watt TEC then I can maintain room temperature on the hot-side of 25C, then the cold-side will be -26C assuming a Delta T = 51C.â?? Bob is about to get a rude awaking.

Whatâ??s Bobâ??s problem? The heat load generated on the hot-side of the 226-watt TEC is not just 60-watts anymore (the original heat output of his CPU). It is the original heat output of the CPU (60-watts) plus the Cooling Power of the TEC (226-watts). 60watts+226watts = 286-watts of heat generated on the hot-side of the TEC. Thatâ??s enough watts to heat 1 liter of water by 4.1C in one minute. See Bobâ??s problem? Well, itâ??s about to become yours.

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TEC's are horribly inefficient for water, and you guys honestly think AIR can cool them?? Dont make me laugh..