ISIS burns Jordanian Pilot alive

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StinkyPinky

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2002
6,886
1,103
126
ISIS makes al-qaeda look like a bunch of poor ass rabble rousers. ISIS have billions in funding and are therefore almost as well funded as some of the smaller western militaries (if lacking the expertise).

They could very well carve out a nation state with their power and then we'd have to deal with some pariah state....again. Best to deal with them now.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
If I were an American bomber pilot I'd probably develop a sudden case of acute blindness if asked to fly over ISIS territory. Best leave this one to the drones.

Fly in some Prowlers, send in BUFFs at high altitude, ISIS probably wouldn't be able to target a thing, let alone hit it.
 

KK

Lifer
Jan 2, 2001
15,903
4
81
I would wish death upon these ISIS folks, but around here, that's not welcomed.
 

Rudee

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
11,218
2
76
Allowing yourself to be captured alive by ISIS is never a good idea. Never!
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
+1

Personally, I'm still for BUFFs, JDAM's and saturation bombing anywhere they are massed.

Even if I've said tactical nukes before, I could never see that happening.

You'd have everyone freaking out to the max globally.

Naplam?
 

cliftonite

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2001
6,899
63
91
Yeah the policy of appeasement works so well. Just ask Neville Chamberlain. To take the isolationist view to the extreme, even if ISIL takes over the entire former Ottoman Empire and then some, and charges $500/barrel for oil, trade in slaves, etc. you'd do nothing.

That bumbling "let's get out of there ASAP" mentality is what helped ISIL grow so big. Never should have invaded in 2003 in the first place, true. But leaving too soon, before Iraq was ready to handle the ball, was part of the reason why the ball was dropped so badly. Some problems need to be stopped while they are small, before they mushroom. Cancer and ISIL (another kind of cancer) are examples.

I am not asking to appease them. I say continue to bomb the shit out of them but do not step foot in any of those shit hole countries.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
That bumbling "let's get out of there ASAP" mentality is what helped ISIL grow so big.

Isil's conception was in an American prison in Iraq. Iraq fell (and is probably lost along with Syria) because of the vacuum created in removing Hussein. That helped inspire the Arab Spring. How's it going in Libya or Egypt?

Wherever we go things seem to fall apart. If the solution isn't in our extraction then I'm afraid there's nothing to be done. Like almost always (in mostly recent history) we'll just make it worse.
 
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blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
Actually Chamberlains replacement is responsible in large part for the mess we inherited. We just made sure the fire is stoked. When an entire region is bombed and their people thrown into chaos by foreign powers for no fault of their own, they tend to resent those who came in and did more damage than any terrorist did to the west. There was no right time to leave. Iraq will never be anything more than it is until we leave and people there work things out any more than the Brits should just have stayed in America and we'd be loyal subjects if they just stay and kill enough of us, and the people in that region think of us just like we did the British and for the same reasons.

Yeah we already know your official position is to let the fire burn itself out.

The problem is that fires do not always burn themselves out fast enough or stay confined. Local fires can trigger much larger fires, as any historian knows. Look at how WWI started for instance.

If the US had NOT intervened last year, it's possible, even probable, that ISIL would control virtually all of Syria and most of Iraq very quickly. The sneak attack into Erbil would decapitate the Kurdish resistance, and Kobane would have fallen in weeks without air support. Baghdad itself would be too hard to take, but they could sweep the oil fields to the south and east and from there, not only in Iraq but also Kuwait, and incite riots in Saudi Arabia and drive oil prices to crippling highs.

Saudi Arabia is fundamentalist, so they'd have a Fifth Column. If ISIL took Mecca/Medina it's hard to see where the snowball would end. The rest of the peninsula would be overrun soon after, and the loss of Saudi support would further destabilize Egypt and Libya, which benefit greatly from Saudi oil money.

At some point in all of this Iran might try to openly send its army to recapture territory outside of the SE territories, but that would draw even more idiots from around the world to what would be an even bigger sectarian war and possibly drag Turkey directly into the mess as well if those "Shiite militias" (read: Iranian puppets) kept slaughtering Sunnis indiscriminately. Turkey's prez is insane so don't put it past him, he thinks he's Defender of Islam or something and even had people dress up in Ottoman garb to welcome guests to the massive palace he built for himself. While claming Muslims discovered America, among other things.

If ISIL got strong enough with so many countries and oilfields under their belt, they might attack Turkey directly to annex it as part of "fulfilling the Dabiq prophecy" on their way to Rome.

Turkey is a NATO country (I wish it weren't) so it would spiral out of control at that point.

ISIL also has sympathizers in Pakistan, which itself unstable. Imagine ISIL getting its hands on some Pakistan nukes during a Pakistan civil war.

Would this necessarily happen? No. But it's one of many possible nightmare scenarios. You seem to think ISIL is some sort of campfire that will burn itself out, when it's more like a brushfire uncomfortably near a bunch of extra-dry forests in late August.
 
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blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
Isil's conception was in an American prison in Iraq. Iraq fell (and is probably lost along with Syria) because of the vacuum created in removing Hussein. That helped inspire the Arab Spring. How's it going in Libya or Egypt?

Wherever we go things seem to fall apart. If the solution isn't in our extraction then I'm afraid there's nothing to be done. Like always we'll just make it worse.

Feel free to quote the rest of my post where I said we should have never gone in 2003 in the first place. But what is done is done. Like I analogized before, it's like if you hit someone with your car, are you going to just speed away like an a-hole, or are you going to at least try to stop the bleeding of the patient and preferably drive them to a hospital? Saying the region is irreparable so we should just permanently bail is like saying, whoops this guy isn't going to be able to walk again so I'm going to let him die and drive off. So what if he can't walk again, if Iraq splits into 3 pieces like Joe wanted, that's still better than the crazy mess today.
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
another video explaining the same thing (great watch if you have 90 minutes):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/rise-of-isis/

Right below it is "Losing Iraq". It should be required viewing in all public schools. We had no idea wtf we were going to do after toppling Saddam. The civilian leadership was utterly clueless as to what was going on. And our military leadership was ready for the parades, medals, and retirement to know or care what was going on.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Isil's conception was in an American prison in Iraq. Iraq fell (and is probably lost along with Syria) because of the vacuum created in removing Hussein. That helped inspire the Arab Spring. How's it going in Libya or Egypt?

Wherever we go things seem to fall apart. If the solution isn't in our extraction then I'm afraid there's nothing to be done. Like always we'll just make it worse.

1. There was no vacuum in Iraq after Saddam. There was a lack of military and brutal suppression. First there was the CPA. Then there was al Maliki. He was a problem. He was Shia and allowed the Sunni to be oppressed etc. AQ is Sunni and they moved in to counter al Maliki and help the Iraqi Sunni's.

2. Libya? We didn't support our 'ally' (Qaddafi). We probably should've stepped in. OTOH, if recent reports are to be believed, Hillary purposefully sought to get rid of him.

3. Egypt? Here again we abandoned an ally. Worse, 'we' supported the Muslim brotherhood, a Sunni group. IMO, we should have supported him. He was secular.

IMO, we're leaving when we shouldn't and not going in when we should. If I didn't know better I'd think we were purposefully helping the sectarian Sunni's (Muslim Brotherhood and AQ) gain control of the region.

Fern
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,418
1,599
126
Right below it is "Losing Iraq". It should be required viewing in all public schools. We had no idea wtf we were going to do after toppling Saddam. The civilian leadership was utterly clueless as to what was going on. And our military leadership was ready for the parades, medals, and retirement to know or care what was going on.

yep, I watched that one too. Both were great.
 

DeadFred

Platinum Member
Jun 4, 2011
2,740
29
91
They kill people in dramatic fashion on video to provoke a response, and we give them what they want. They want to draw us into a war that they think they can win. Given our recent history in Iraq and Afghanistan I'm not so sure they're wrong about that.
Sad thing is that we would win, and do so in decisive fashion if only we had the stomach to do what it actually takes to win a war. We have the capabilities, we just have to unleash them and get over the horrors of war. I know that's easier said than done, but how is witnessing atrocities like this for years on end any better?
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
1. There was no vacuum in Iraq after Saddam. There was a lack of military and brutal suppression. First there was the CPA. Then there was al Maliki. He was a problem. He was Shia and allowed the Sunni to be oppressed etc. AQ is Sunni and they moved in to counter al Maliki and help the Iraqi Sunni's.

2. Libya? We didn't support our 'ally' (Qaddafi). We probably should've stepped in. OTOH, if recent reports are to be believed, Hillary purposefully sought to get rid of him.

3. Egypt? Here again we abandoned an ally. Worse, 'we' supported the Muslim brotherhood, a Sunni group. IMO, we should have supported him. He was secular.

IMO, we're leaving when we shouldn't and not going in when we should. If I didn't know better I'd think we were purposefully helping the sectarian Sunni's (Muslim Brotherhood and AQ) gain control of the region.

Fern

Also remember Iran had a part in this; they purposefully armed militias to attack US troops in Iraq, this is beyond any doubt as the ammunition and arms are traceable back to Iran, several Shia militias take orders and funding from Iran, and as is especially obvious today, there's definitely an Iranian operational presence in Iraq. Their Shia militias butchered Sunnis as much as Maliki's. Plus without Iran's help Assad would have fallen a long time ago. If he resigned, there is at least the possibility that Syria would not be in such chaos, which ISIL took advantage of to recruit and rebuild after they were shattered in Iraq.

But I disagree about intervening in Libya and Egypt. Look, NOBODY in that part of the world is ever that grateful for US help, so we should not be there. Haven't we learned from 2003? At most if we have to get involved it should be via an ally already in the region. We don't want to be there directly. We have a moral obligation to try to help stabilize Iraq due to the recent 2003 invasion, but we have no such obligation in Libya or Egypt.
 
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master_shake_

Diamond Member
May 22, 2012
6,425
291
121
imagine the youtube videos of times from the past...

french revolution, roman empire, crusades, spanish inquisition...the list goes on.

compared to those guys isis is small potatoes.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Also remember Iran had a part in this; they purposefully armed militias to attack US troops in Iraq, this is beyond any doubt as the ammunition and arms are traceable back to Iran, several Shia militias take orders and funding from Iran, and as is especially obvious today, there's definitely an Iranian operational presence in Iraq. Their Shia militias butchered Sunnis as much as Maliki's. Plus without Iran's help Assad would have fallen a long time ago. If he resigned, there is at least the possibility that Syria would not be in such chaos, which ISIL took advantage of to recruit and rebuild after they were shattered in Iraq.

But I disagree about intervening in Libya and Egypt. Look, NOBODY in that part of the world is ever that grateful for US help, so we should not be there. Haven't we learned from 2003? At most if we have to get involved it should be via an ally already in the region. We don't want to be there directly. We have a moral obligation to try to help stabilize Iraq due to the recent 2003 invasion, but we have no such obligation in Libya or Egypt.

Invading and destroying your country, why not grateful for our help?
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,418
1,599
126
imagine the youtube videos of times from the past...

french revolution, roman empire, crusades, spanish inquisition...the list goes on.

compared to those guys isis is small potatoes.

That's exactly the point tho, these guys are barbaric like they're from medieval times.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
imagine the youtube videos of times from the past...

french revolution, roman empire, crusades, spanish inquisition...the list goes on.

compared to those guys isis is small potatoes.

Should be a couple of Nam vets here who witnessed people burning to death everyday
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Also remember Iran had a part in this; they purposefully armed militias to attack US troops in Iraq, this is beyond any doubt as the ammunition and arms are traceable back to Iran, several Shia militias take orders and funding from Iran, and as is especially obvious today, there's definitely an Iranian operational presence in Iraq. Their Shia militias butchered Sunnis as much as Maliki's.
-snip-

Yeah, agreed. And I'm curious to see what Iran does about ISIS. Iran is Shia and ISIS wants to eradicate the Shia. (Since life is stranger than fiction maybe one day we'll be happy Iran gets nukes.)

But I disagree about intervening in Libya and Egypt. Look, NOBODY in that part of the world is ever that grateful for US help, so we should not be there. -snip-

We wouldn't have had to be there.

All Khadafi needed was some air support from us. We did that anyway, just for the wrong side IMO.

Obama helped force Mubarak out! Then he supported the Muslim Brotherhood. If we hadn't 'dissuaded' the Egypt military from backing Mubarak I think he'd still be there, or at least the Muslim Brotherhood would have never gained control (even if for only a couple of years). I think we're still withholding aid from Egypt because the military pushed out the Muslim Brotherhood after Morsi tried to make himself dictator for life.

Fern
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
Yeah, agreed. And I'm curious to see what Iran does about ISIS. Iran is Shia and ISIS wants to eradicate the Shia. (Since life is stranger than fiction maybe one day we'll be happy Iran gets nukes.)



We wouldn't have had to be there.

All Khadafi needed was some air support from us. We did that anyway, just for the wrong side IMO.

Obama helped force Mubarak out! Then he supported the Muslim Brotherhood. If we hadn't 'dissuaded' the Egypt military from backing Mubarak I think he'd still be there, or at least the Muslim Brotherhood would have never gained control (even if for only a couple of years). I think we're still withholding aid from Egypt because the military pushed out the Muslim Brotherhood after Morsi tried to make himself dictator for life.

Fern

No, Iran is vastly more dangerous than ISIL or AQ. Their operational ability is much higher, just ask Israel.

As for Libya, staying out would be enough. Qaddafi did not need air support.

As for Egypt I think you overestimate US influence there. Staying neutral would have been better.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
imagine the youtube videos of times from the past...

french revolution, roman empire, crusades, spanish inquisition...the list goes on.

compared to those guys isis is small potatoes.
Well shit, then let's not be concerned about this at all. Let's wait until it's a big enough problem. Now, how will we gauge that?

The president of what was once the most powerful nation on earth doesn't want to deal with this. Will another leader fill that vacuum? Who is that leader? Oh wait, we're going to all just sit around and watch it play out for a spell now, aren't we? Nevermind.
 
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