ISIS burns Jordanian Pilot alive

[MongGrel]

Lol are you implying that the oh so scary Turkish army that can't take out PKK, is why nobody wants to attack it? You DO know that Turkey has been in NATO since the 1950s and what Article 5 says right? http://www.nato.int/terrorism/five.htm Even if Turkey weren't in NATO nobody would attack it though because it's not worth it. What exactly would you be conquering? It has no oil and much of it is impoverished rugged terrain.

I'm well aware of it, my XO when I was in the Marines was Turkish, and my CO went there as an attache after he left the Squadron back in 1982.

Old Fowl Raul, he was a bad ass MOFO jet pilot.

 

[OutHouse]

Man did I stir up the Turkish propaganda tonight. Such a mighty military surely would have crushed PKK long ago right? LOL. You can think what you want, let's get back on topic.

I stated facts, sorry it's not what you wanted to hear.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Well shit, then let's not be concerned about this at all. Let's wait until it's a big enough problem. Now, how will we gauge that?

The president of what was once the most powerful nation on earth doesn't want to deal with this. Will another leader fill that vacuum? Who is that leader? Oh wait, we're going to all just sit around and watch it play out for a spell now, aren't we? Nevermind.

Ok, what do you think should be done, how should it be done and, by who?

 

[Orignal Earl]

I'm well aware of it, my XO when I was in the Marines was Turkish, and my CO went there as an attache after he left the Squadron back in 1982.

Old Fowl Raul, he was a bad ass MOFO jet pilot.

Was Raul Muslim?

 

[blastingcap]

I'm well aware of it, my XO when I was in the Marines was Turkish, and my CO went there as an attache after he left the Squadron back in 1982.

Old Fowl Raul, he was a bad ass MOFO jet pilot.

Great then we should be able to agree that Daesh needs Turkey as a conduit for fresh recruits and doesn't want NATO all over its ass even more than it already is, so it doesn't want to provoke Turkey right now. Not to mention how Turkey has actually armed the Syrian insurgents and they think of Turkey as something of a friend in that regard.

Turkey in return doesn't want to provoke Daesh right now either; Erdogan is a Daesh sympathizer and even if he weren't, Turkey's borders are porous and the intelligence services can't stop a determined wave of things like the recent Sultanahmet explosion. Such a wave of terror would plunge the country into recession due to huge tourism sector grinding to a halt, and it's an election year.

 

[bradly1101]

+1

That movie could have been called:
Dr. Strangelove: The Crazy Ways People React to Things
instead of:
Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

Ether way the lesson is that we must live with the consequences of our actions. We murder them, they react. They murder us, we react... Is this how it's going to be for the foreseeable future? In our lexicon they're known as 'savages' as we are in theirs, but there must be a way of defeating this escalation of violence. We start and (sort of) stop with the military. Have we tried everything else?

"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," ~Jesus of Nazereth
Mathew 5:44

 

[KMFJD]

Quantity over quality? If quantity mattered so much, you'd think the SAA and Iraqis would have done better.

Turkey hasn't been in a serious war in ages and I very much doubt they'd fare any better than the Soviets did in the 80s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

Furthermore the frontline force of an army is typically just a tiny fraction of the total number of troops. And to repeat, in the scenario we were talking about, Daesh would control the entire Arabian peninsula and Syria-Iraq (100+ million population), and draw from external jihadis worldwide to further bolster numbers. In addition ~11% of Turks support Daesh and some fraction of those could act as a Fifth Column. So I wouldn't be so sure about Turkey being able to withstand a serious incursion by that much bigger Daesh without resorting to desperate measures. Of course it would never get that far out of control in real life, because luckily we don't have isolationist pacifists in charge.

I understand the scenario that you are projecting but that would take years and complete idiocy by the world community. As far as the 11% that support Daesh, well the Turk's have been pretty good at attempting to eradicate a portion of their population that didn't fit their plan in the last 100 or so years.

 

[MongGrel]

Was Raul Muslim?

No idea, that was 35 years ago.

I didn't ask at the time I guess. I wasn't an officer, just hung around em all the time being a Corporal in HQ.

But I doubt it as he was a pretty partying guy I seem to remember....

 

[blastingcap]

I understand the scenario that you are projecting but that would take years and complete idiocy by the world community. As far as the 11% that support Daesh, well the Turk's have been pretty good at attempting to eradicate a portion of their population that didn't fit their plan in the last 100 or so years.

I agree it would take complete idiocy by the international community and would never happen because thankfully some of the people in this thread who are advocating isolationism for an indeterminate amount of time, are NOT world leaders.

Few world leaders not named Putin actually like war. Obama definitely does not, and even he grudgingly saw the light when it became clear that he could not keep hiding his head in the sand. He couched it as a humanitarian mission against Yezidi genocide at Shingal at first, but I think he knew even back then that there would be mission creep.

 

[Orignal Earl]

No idea, that was 35 years ago.

I didn't ask at the time I guess. I wasn't an officer, just hung around em all the time being a Corporal in HQ.

But I doubt it as he was a pretty partying guy I seem to remember....

A lot of Muslims drink, but ya back then no one would of cared if he was

 

[davmat787]

A lot of Muslims drink, but ya back then no one would of cared if he was

Especially Turkish Muslims, I've always wanted to go to Istanbul and try some Boze and other local specialties. Drinking, even as a Muslim, won't get you arrested like in some other countries, they imbibe right out in the open.

 

[KMFJD]

Saudi Arabia (internal) is the real tinderbox in the region imho , if they are attacked and do not demolish that threat they are in trouble.

 

[drifter106]

Anybody heard about the correlation between what is happening in the world now and what happened back in the 30's with Hiltler? How the European countries caved in and let him take countries so they did not "ruffle" any feathers. Somebody will surely correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Hitler's goal to create a world dominated by Aryans? The Jews, Catholics and basically anybody not ARYAN were eliminated. England finally got rid of Chamberlain and Churchill was on the scene. Consequently England entered the war. Hilter screwed up when he attack Russia. Anyway, same pattern with a different set of idiots with a lot more technology at their disposal. If you are not with them or for them, consider yourself dead....

And now look at all the PR ISIS is getting...this stuff is plastered all over the news agencies and the internet. Think about all the low life scum bags laying around the world itching to do something "wild". Makes for a great recruiting film. Heard today on the news their numbers grow by 1,000 per month. Sometimes I wonder how Jesus sees this????? There were over 40 people murdered in the USA today (average). Is this killing, in his eyes, any different than the other 40 that were murdered? Hell, where is the news to cover the other victims? Definitely have a different set of standards and yes that was "lower than scum" way of executing the pilot.


Personally I look at it like this simply because of my situation and how it has a bearing on the way I perceive life...I have cancer, do my doctors not want to identify it? Are they gonna sit around and whisper PC fairytales? Is there a goal?


no

they identify it
they implement a strategy
and they hit it hard and quick, killing it

Just my gut feeling, but I think this whole middle east thing is gonna be around for a while especially with Iran sticking up its ugly head.

 

[MagickMan]

They kill people in dramatic fashion on video to provoke a response, and we give them what they want. They want to draw us into a war that they think they can win. Given our recent history in Iraq and Afghanistan I'm not so sure they're wrong about that.

We kicked the shit out of them, it's the occupation that's so difficult.

 

[davmat787]

They kill people in dramatic fashion on video to provoke a response, and we give them what they want. They want to draw us into a war that they think they can win. Given our recent history in Iraq and Afghanistan I'm not so sure they're wrong about that.

I don't know about that, ISIS goes up against anything more than unarmed civilians they usually get their asses handed to them. Against a coalition with modern western armament, airpower, communications, and command and I don't think the Afghan situation applies. Plus they are trying to create a new country.

The Kurdish Peshmerga sure seem to have a beed on how to handle them now too.

I think the key will be containment, that is keeping existing ISIS fighters and support contained and killed while at the same time preventing the influx of foreigners looking to join outside that zone.

That an A-10 strafing runs. :awe:

 

[drifter106]

Once again I pull from the archives of history...look at Germany, allied occupation. Japan, as well as Korea we had a occupation force. When we left Iraq we could of left an occupation force but BO wanted parliamentary procedure (he knew Iraq could not and would not allow it at that time) in place. Where do you think ISIS grew from? The bowels of Northern Iraq and Eastern Syria would be a starting point.

Case in point.....this could of been contained.

 

[Railgun]

Man did I stir up the Turkish propaganda tonight. Such a mighty military surely would have crushed PKK long ago right? LOL. You can think what you want, let's get back on topic.

You think just because they have a "mighty military," all enemies should automatically be defeated? I'm sorry...who has one of, if not the best military forces in the world, and who have they been fighting for decades? But I digress...

It's not as cut and dry as one may hope.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Once again I pull from the archives of history...look at Germany, allied occupation. Japan, as well as Korea we had a occupation force. When we left Iraq we could of left an occupation force but BO wanted parliamentary procedure (he knew Iraq could not and would not allow it at that time) in place. Where do you think ISIS grew from? The bowels of Northern Iraq and Eastern Syria would be a starting point.

Case in point.....this could of been contained.

ISIS originated as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad in 1999

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant

Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad was started in 1999 by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and a combination of Jordanian and other Sunni Jihadist militants.[1] Al-Zarqawi was a Jordanian Jihadist who had traveled to Afghanistan to fight in the Soviet-Afghan War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jama'at_al-Tawhid_wal-Jihad

Oh and from your post above, Catholics were a third of Germans

 

[Blanky]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Muslim-won-t-stand-barbarians-watch-too.html

PIERS MORGAN: Watching ISIS burn a man alive was the most abominable thing I have ever seen - and any Muslim who won't stand up to these barbarians must watch it too

I appreciate his point and I have watched awful things sometimes for th same reason but if this is as bad as they say I fear it would stick in my head and it isn't a memory I need.

 

[drifter106]

ISIS originated as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad in 1999

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant

Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad was started in 1999 by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and a combination of Jordanian and other Sunni Jihadist militants.[1] Al-Zarqawi was a Jordanian Jihadist who had traveled to Afghanistan to fight in the Soviet-Afghan War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jama'at_al-Tawhid_wal-Jihad

Oh and from your post above, Catholics were a third of Germans

Grow of ISIS
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/how-us-helped-isis-grow-monster-iraq-syria-assad

Oh and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to make an inference as to the presence in Iraq of US troops and the effect they would of had on the growth of ISIS.

Persecution of the Catholic Church in Nazi Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany

 

[DeadFred]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Muslim-won-t-stand-barbarians-watch-too.html



I appreciate his point and I have watched awful things sometimes for th same reason but if this is as bad as they say I fear it would stick in my head and it isn't a memory I need.

I watched it and it is absolutely horrendous, but I think everyone should watch it just to see for themselves what we are dealing with here. Especially those who tend to waffle towards tolerance and appeasement.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Sad thing is that we would win, and do so in decisive fashion if only we had the stomach to do what it actually takes to win a war. We have the capabilities, we just have to unleash them and get over the horrors of war. I know that's easier said than done, but how is witnessing atrocities like this for years on end any better?

That's my viewpoint as well and why I believe any American involvement on the ground is foolish, because we all know our involvement would be needlessly constrained by political considerations. At some point, you have to say "Enough!" and take off the gloves in order to wage all-out war in order to finish the job. These terrorists may be medieval thugs but they aren't stupid -- they know any involvement by the west will have huge political constraints and therefore, the efficacy of our attacks will be blunted as a result.

Many of the Middle Eastern countries would probably object to all-out war as well and I would hope many Americans would object to it UNLESS we're attacked directly, so as far as I am concerned, it is currently a regional problem. US involvement, if any, should be restricted to cruise missle strikes, drones, and air strikes (to a lesser extent).

 

[Orignal Earl]

Grow of ISIS
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/how-us-helped-isis-grow-monster-iraq-syria-assad

Your article is about how the US has helped ISIS grow in Iraq, I was trying to inform you about how it started even before that

Persecution of the Catholic Church in Nazi Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany

Ya, I was commenting more about your Catholics not being Aryan
<-Nordic Catholic

 

[drifter106]

Your article is about how the US has helped ISIS grow in Iraq, I was trying to inform you about how it started even before that



Ya, I was commenting more about your Catholics not being Aryan
<-Nordic Catholic

Well if you want to go all they way back how bout their mother's womb. My statement was in reference to the Caliphate State that they are seeking.

The idea that I support is very simple....if there was a significant force of coalition troops left in Iraq after the war the world would not be in this predicament.

 

[drifter106]

Your article is about how the US has helped ISIS grow in Iraq, I was trying to inform you about how it started even before that



Ya, I was commenting more about your Catholics not being Aryan
<-Nordic Catholic

Well if you want to go all they way back how bout their mother's womb. My statement was in reference to the Caliphate State that they are seeking.

The idea that I support is very simple....if there was a significant force of coalition troops left in Iraq after the war the world would not be in this predicament.

And yes, I agree with your follow up comments....