Israel and America are Making some powerful mistakes

[Gamer X]

Originally posted by: Trente

Originally posted by: Gamer X
The negotiations which was a direct result of the war and the military situation after the cease fire led to Egypt regaining parts of Sinai on diffierent stages until April 1982.

That is the essence of what Egypt had fed you with. Egypt didn't "regain" Sinai back as a result of a so-called "military situation". It had "regained" Sinai because of Israeli withdrawal, which began only in 1979 as a result of the peace talks, which means that during 1973-1979 Sinai was under Israeli control. That withdrawal took place not because Egyptian forces drove the Israelis out of Sinai, as you are trying to protray. Need I remind you that in this war the IDF also conquered some African soil? :evil:

You are dumb of you think Israel gives land that it controls for free. Why did they suddenly started negotiations after 1973. I showed you photos of Israeli POWs and Israeli bodies and asked you to provide similar photos of Egyptian soldiers captured in 1973 war.The outcome of war is Egypt regaining Sinai, Israeli heavy losses, and captured Israeli soldiers. If that isn't winning I don't know what winning is. I know youu have a hard time believing it (or hiding it) but it happened.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Gamer X

Originally posted by: Trente

Originally posted by: Gamer X
The negotiations which was a direct result of the war and the military situation after the cease fire led to Egypt regaining parts of Sinai on diffierent stages until April 1982.

That is the essence of what Egypt had fed you with. Egypt didn't "regain" Sinai back as a result of a so-called "military situation". It had "regained" Sinai because of Israeli withdrawal, which began only in 1979 as a result of the peace talks, which means that during 1973-1979 Sinai was under Israeli control. That withdrawal took place not because Egyptian forces drove the Israelis out of Sinai, as you are trying to protray. Need I remind you that in this war the IDF also conquered some African soil? :evil:

You are dumb of you think Israel gives land that it controls for free. Why did they suddenly started negotiations after 1973. I showed you photos of Israeli POWs and Israeli bodies and asked you to provide similar photos of Egyptian soldiers captured in 1973 war.The outcome of war is Egypt regaining Sinai, Israeli heavy losses, and captured Israeli soldiers. If that isn't winning I don't know what winning is. I know youu have a hard time believing it (or hiding it) but it happened.

**********************************
In an effort to force Israel to unilaterally surrender captured lands, Egypt and Syria jointly attacked Israel on October 6, 1973, on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish calendar. Other Arab states contributed troops and financial support. Caught by surprise, Israel suffered severe losses in human life and equipment. Following an Egyptian refusal to accept a cease-fire and a Soviet airlift to the Arab states, the U.S. sent an airlift to Israel enabling her to recover from earlier setbacks. Saudi Arabia then led the Arab world in an oil embargo imposed on the United States and other western nations.

Following a cease-fire, the war officially ended on October 22, 1973 but fighting continued on the Egyptian-Israeli front and the U.S. and the Soviet Union were nearly dragged into a full-scale superpower confrontation. Such a confrontation was avoided and when hostilities finally ended, Israel held an additional 165 square miles of territory from Syria, and had encircled the Egyptian Third Army on the west bank of the Suez Canal. Egyptian forces held two areas of Israeli territory along the east bank of the canal. Israel, Egypt and Syria all held prisoners of war.

On October 22, 1973, the UN Security Council passed Resolution 338, calling on all parties to begin "implementation of Security Council Resolution 242 in all its parts" through negotiations.

In late December, at the request of the Soviet Union, a Middle East peace conference opened in Geneva. Insisting that Israel first evacuate from territory gained during the war, Syria refused to attend. The conference quickly adjourned in failure.

U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger then directed his energies toward achieving bilateral, rather than comprehensive agreements. After months of what has been coined "shuttle diplomacy," he successfully coordinated troop disengagement agreements between Israel and Egypt in January 1974 and between Israel and Syria in May 1974. These agreements were not peace treaties but limited agreements on the withdrawal of Israeli and Arab forces from specific areas. Israel withdrew from all the area it had acquired from Syria during the 1973 war in addition to some area gained in 1967. The Egyptian-Israeli agreement called for Israeli withdrawal from parts of the Sinai. Prisoners of war were exchanged. The Arab world ended its oil embargo.

In the years following the 1973 war, Israel's enemies realized that they could not defeat Israel on the battlefield. They turned therefore to diplomatic warfare and sought to weaken Israel's international diplomatic position. Due to pressure from the Arab world, most African and third world countries broke diplomatic relations with Israel. In 1975, the Soviet-Arab-Third World bloc at the United Nations succeeded in passing the infamous "Zionism equals racism" General Assembly resolution which was an attempt to delegitimize the right of the Jewish people to return to their ancestral homeland. The resolution was not revoked until December 1991.

Within Israel, the October 1973 war intensified the debate about the future of Israel's control over the 1967 territories. Some interpreted the war as further evidence of the need to populate and strengthen these areas for security and strategic reasons. As a result, Israeli settlements in the 1967 areas increased. The government permitted and at times, encouraged, Jews to live in the territories. Other Israelis viewed the territories -- the West Bank in particular -- in religious and messianic terms. Members of Gush Emunim, the Bloc of the Faithful, also increased their presence in the area.

Even the name of these areas has stimulated debate. Some use the term "West Bank and Gaza" with West Bank referring to the west bank of the Jordan River. Others say that "West Bank" is inappropriate because it falsely suggests that the area belongs to Jordan. Some prefer to call the areas "Judea and Samaria" ­ the names used to refer to these areas in biblical times.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Hehe, I know you have been hurt by caring. That's what made you dead as a stone. But you have no idea what I would do or how I would operate in the ME. I have simply critiques your simple minded solution as the same old idea that keeps the ME the same way it is year after year, the desire to find answers in force. Yours is the way of fools who think that if force doesn't work more force will. As I said, you are just stupid and lazy. Real answers will require dialog and immense creativity and huge effort and good will. Nobody knows better than the wise how dangerous the insane can be.

And this is where you're mistaken. You want to enforce your resolution over population who never understood anything but force.
Arab regimes are in their place by nothing but force. Ever wondered why there's no democracy in the Middle East other than Israel?
They only understand force, and that's a fact. Ask our Egyptian friend here Gamer X how does Mubarak deal with his political opponents, and how on earth do you win election with over 90% of support.

The peace with Egypt did not come as a result of diplomacy, it came as the end of an era of bloodshed. And even that isn't real peace.

And I'm an Israeli, BTW.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Gamer X
So IrateLeaf, Jenin never happened, the US Never killed any civilians in spite of the sites that I linked to and the videos. Suit yourself. Whatever floats your boat.

As for the October 1973 war, I know the Israeli propaganda version which is all lying to hide their defeat in it. The real version is what I qouted. The Israeli counterattack was disastrous for them. They lost ALL tanks which crossed the Suez canal and their troops got basically slaughtered. If it was not for US airlift the Egyptian army could enter Tel Aviv. The Egyptian army even shot down US fighters and captured US pilots. The "Israeli soldiers about one kilometer from the main Cairo-Ismailia highway" were shreds of soldiers who got captured. Egypt captured around 2000 Israeli soldiers in this war.

Israel occupied Sinai for 6 years from 1967 to 1973 and refused even negotiations. The negotiations after 1973 led to Egypt fully regaining Sinai back. Decide for yourself who won this war.

Ah yes. We still laugh at your national radio telling the Egyptian army has arrived at Tel Aviv. It surfaced recently after hearing El Manar radio broadcasting the victories of Hizbulla while they had dozens of fatalities.

Truth is, you got pwned again and again. The peace agreement was signed at the beginning of the '80s ('81), until then Israel had full control of Sinai.
You'll find NO support of your version of Yum Kippur war anywhere in the western world, only in the eyes of the Egyptians you've won. Ever heard of the third army? If not for the ceasefire enforced by US, you would have lost that too.

As some wise guy said, "Arabs only know how to threaten, lie and hide".
Nice.

And at the end, look at where Egypt is and where Israel is, after only 60 years. Like it or not, the Centrino you'll probably buy will be designed in Haifa, not Cairo. Egypt's GDP per Capita is 3,810$, roughly sixth of Israel's.

If not for the "traitor" Mubbarak, your country would look like Iraq. We've seen the patriotic, "taking ****** from no one" Arab leaders. Even Kadaffi was fed up with isolation.
Although, I'm positively surprised you're allowed to use the Internet back in Egypt. That's a good move.

So, dear neighbour, I suggest you open your eyes and smell the ****** you're in.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Liver]

dari, well thought out post. I do not agree with you on all points, but kudos for the post being well thoughout and easy to read.

 

[Starbuck1975]

The Egyptian army captured part of Sinai in 1973. The negotiations which was a direct result of the war and the military situation after the cease fire led to Egypt regaining parts of Sinai on diffierent stages until April 1982. Here are photos of the Israeli POWs in 1973 and also Israel receving the bodies of her soldiers through the red cross. You'll find also photos of the war and cease fire negotiations. Please show me photos of Egyptian soldiers captured in 1973.

The evidence you provided offers no support to the conclusions you derive from it.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Ah yes. We still laugh at your national radio telling the Egyptian army has arrived at Tel Aviv. It surfaced recently after hearing El Manar radio broadcasting the victories of Hizbulla while they had dozens of fatalities.

Truth is, you got pwned again and again. The peace agreement was signed at the beginning of the '80s ('81), until then Israel had full control of Sinai.
You'll find NO support of your version of Yum Kippur war anywhere in the western world, only in the eyes of the Egyptians you've won. Ever heard of the third army? If not for the ceasefire enforced by US, you would have lost that too.

Wow, after doing some research, I found out that the 3rd army was 45K men strong. They were encircled and open for air assualts. If Israel wanted to, they could have clustered f**Ckedd those soldiers - it would have been a massacre... dammn, wouldn't have wanted to be an egyptian soldier then.

total casualty counts:
Israel : 2,523
Egypt: 8,000

if things got ugly:
Egypt: 50,000

Yea, I don't think Egypt won. But I think relationship between Israel and egypt is better (not saying much..) after the war...

 

[g8wayrebel]

Originally posted by: Gamer X

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Gamer X

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Gamer X

Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no way to win the hearts and minds of Muslims living in the ME. They are blinded by religion and are brainwashed from birth. Diplomacy is a waste of time with these people. They only understand violence and that is what they bring upon themselves with their actions. If the US and Israel took the gloves off and stopped fighting these animals constrained by politics there would none of them left.

The animals are the US soldiers who massacre thousands in Iraq. The animals are the ones who torture the Iraqis and rape women in prisons and take photos for their amusements. The US is an emperialistic evil state which call people terrorists for defending their countries and is currently run by maniacs like you who are only gonna bring it down. Israel is one of its military bases in the region. Believe it or not, US and Israel are losing grip; things are only gonna get worrse for them from now on and there is nothing you can do about it.

Oddly enough though, the people who do that in the US army, while pathetic and cowardly are a minority. As well, the US army dicplines those as it is not US policy to perform such acts. The enemy the US fights though, would reward such acts within it's ranks, yet these are the people you think of as morally better. The people you think of as morally better preach the doctorine of killing innocents, killing children and woman, making no difference between combatment and civillian, on purpose. While yes, the US army has killed civilians, it is not there policy to murder everyone, and there are many cases of US army personal giving there lives to save civllians. The people you defend go out of there way to kill the innocent. Those are the ones you think of as morally superior.

The US is occupying Iraq because of oil and yes murdering Iraqi civilians is a policy of the US army. When the US army could not deal with resistance in Fallujah they bombed the hell out of it killing thousands of civilians in a matter of days. Now how can killing civilians be not a policy of US army when its bombers are performing this organized process of bombing thousands of civilians. Besides soldiers who were involved in Abo Ghareib scandal admitted receiving orders to do what they did from higher ranking officers. Again, you are calling people who defend their country terrorists which is a classic practice of colonialist countries.

As, so you subscribe to the US invaded for oil theory. Well, that explains enough.

Tell me the next time leaders of the US army openly call for the murder of cillians, state directly "to attack any Iraq wherever they are" and than we can compare the two. Until that happens, you sympathize with people who exist for no sole purpose but to kill.

It is not a theory, even US citizens know that US is in Iraq for oil. Please do not ignore the truth as this is both pathetic and hypocritic.

And leaders of the US army will not openly call for the murder of civilians; they are not that supid, nobody is.

Nobody?
All of militant Muslim society is just that.
The leaders of every single organization have called for the killing of Americans , Europeans , their supporters and the annhialation of Isreal and extermination of the Jews.
It is exactly the doctrine of these groups to kill innocent people for the purpose of terror.
Try again!

 

[Gamer X]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Gamer X
So IrateLeaf, Jenin never happened, the US Never killed any civilians in spite of the sites that I linked to and the videos. Suit yourself. Whatever floats your boat.

As for the October 1973 war, I know the Israeli propaganda version which is all lying to hide their defeat in it. The real version is what I qouted. The Israeli counterattack was disastrous for them. They lost ALL tanks which crossed the Suez canal and their troops got basically slaughtered. If it was not for US airlift the Egyptian army could enter Tel Aviv. The Egyptian army even shot down US fighters and captured US pilots. The "Israeli soldiers about one kilometer from the main Cairo-Ismailia highway" were shreds of soldiers who got captured. Egypt captured around 2000 Israeli soldiers in this war.

Israel occupied Sinai for 6 years from 1967 to 1973 and refused even negotiations. The 1negotiations after 1973 led to Egypt fully regaining Sinai back. Decide for yourself who won this war.

Ah yes. We still laugh at your national radio telling the Egyptian army has arrived at Tel Aviv. It surfaced recently after hearing El Manar radio broadcasting the victories of Hizbulla while they had dozens of fatalities.

Truth is, you got pwned again and again. The peace agreement was signed at the beginning of the '80s ('81), until then Israel had full control of Sinai.
You'll find NO support of your version of Yum Kippur war anywhere in the western world, only in the eyes of the Egyptians you've won. Ever heard of the third army? If not for the ceasefire enforced by US, you would have lost that too.

As some wise guy said, "Arabs only know how to threaten, lie and hide".
Nice.

And at the end, look at where Egypt is and where Israel is, after only 60 years. Like it or not, the Centrino you'll probably buy will be designed in Haifa, not Cairo. Egypt's GDP per Capita is 3,810$, roughly sixth of Israel's.

If not for the "traitor" Mubbarak, your country would look like Iraq. We've seen the patriotic, "taking ****** from no one" Arab leaders. Even Kadaffi was fed up with isolation.
Although, I'm positively surprised you're allowed to use the Internet back in Egypt. That's a good move.

So, dear neighbour, I suggest you open your eyes and smell the ****** you're in.

Thanks for listening.

For the last time :

1.Israel did not have full control over Sinai after 1973. That's Israeli propaganda. Your government has placed you in the middle of Arabs and does not want to tell you you're in deep ****. They have to tell you your army is invicible because if it is not invincible you will be wiped off the map which is gonna happen.

2. Yes Hizbullah is kicking your ass but your government does not want to tell you your real losses. The only victory they can have is bomb children. I hereby challenge you if the IDF can advance in south Lebanon noting that their primary goal was to destroy Hizbullah. Now they do not mention that goal anymore.

3. Again Here are the photos of your captured soldiers and your dead bodies. May be you can visit Sinai and see for yourself the destroyed Bar Lev line and the captured Israeli strong points in Sinai which still have the full equipment that the Israeli soldiers used plus the weapons and destroyd tanks. The thing which does not support that Israelis had full control over Sinai and left these points at their will.

As for "where Egypt is and where Israel is". I admit that Egypt is currently in a very bad condition because it is governed by a dictator. But I know where Israel is. Yes you are very advanced and yes your end is near. Why?

-Iran ?

-Arab nations are beginning to rebel against their dictator rulers who have done nothing but bring down their countries and help the US control the region. Mubarak can not even control the country anymore and his end is near. Prepare for a totally different government in Egypt.

- The US which helps you is in deep trouble in Iraq.


BTW, I don't know what do you mean by "you're allowed to use the Internet back in Egypt". It was never blocked before. Maybe that's part of the propaganda your government is feeding you.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Gamer X
For the last time :

1.Israel did not have full control over Sinai after 1973. That's Israeli propaganda. Your government has placed you in the middle of Arabs and does not want to tell you you're in deep ****. They have to tell you your army is invicible because if it is not invincible you will be wiped off the map which is gonna happen.

2. Yes Hizbullah is kicking your ass but your government does not want to tell you your real losses. The only victory they can have is bomb children. I hereby challenge you if the IDF can advance in south Lebanon noting that their primary goal was to destroy Hizbullah. Now they do not mention that goal anymore.

3. Again Here are the photos of your captured soldiers and your dead bodies. May be you can visit Sinai and see for yourself the destroyed Bar Lev line and the captured Israeli strong points in Sinai which still have the full equipment that the Israeli soldiers used plus the weapons and destroyd tanks. The thing which does not support that Israelis had full control over Sinai and left these points at their will.

Lets get the facts of '73 war straight, shall we?

Lets start here:
onwar.com

In the early days of the war, the IDF suffered heavy losses as Egyptian forces crossed the Suez Canal and overran Israeli strongholds, while Syrians marched deep into the Golan Heights. Israel launched its counteroffensive first against the Syrian front, and only when it had pushed the Syrians back well east of the 1967 cease-fire line (by October 15) did Israel turn its attention to the Egyptian front. In ten days of fighting, Israel pushed the Egyptian army back across the canal, and the IDF made deep incursions into Egypt. On October 24, with Israeli soldiers about one kilometer from the main Cairo-Ismailia highway and the Soviet Union threatening direct military intervention, the UN imposed a cease-fire.

encyclopedia.com

The attacks caught Israel off guard, and it was several days before the country was fully mobilized; Israel then forced the Syrians and Egyptians back and, in the last hours of the war, established a salient on the west bank of the Suez Canal, but these advances were achieved at a high cost in soldiers and equipment.

Through U.S. and Soviet diplomatic pressures and the efforts of the United Nations, a tenuous cease-fire was implemented by Oct. 25. Israel and Egypt signed a cease-fire agreement in November, but Israeli-Syrian fighting continued until a cease-fire was negotiated in 1974. Largely as a result of the diplomatic efforts of U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger , Israel withdrew back across the Suez Canal and several miles inland from the east bank behind a UN-supervised cease-fire zone. On the Syrian front too, Israeli territorial gains made in the war were given up.

MSN Encarta

Meanwhile, Israel launched a counteroffensive against Egypt, crossing the Suez Canal, advancing into Egypt, and surrounding Egypt's Third Army. By the end of the war, Israeli forces had advanced to within 100 km (60 mi) of Cairo and 40 km (25 mi) of Damascus. However, Israel saw no political reason to occupy the two Arab capitals.

...

Israel and Egypt both broke the terms of the cease-fire, and Israel continued its encirclement of the Egyptian Third Army. Brezhnev, viewing an Egyptian defeat as potentially destabilizing to Sadat's government, implied in communications with U.S. president Richard Nixon that Israel's failure to halt military actions would prompt a Soviet response, including intervention to preserve the Third Army. In response, Kissinger asked for and received Nixon's permission to put American troops on a nuclear alert. Both the Soviets and the Americans almost immediately stepped back from a confrontation. A final cease-fire took effect on October 25.

Israel's desire to have its prisoners of war returned, combined with the precarious existence of the Egyptian Third Army, hastened military talks between Israel and Egypt. These talks took place at Kilometer 101 of the Cairo-Suez Road from October 28 until late November. Kissinger, desiring greater American participation, arranged a Middle East peace conference with the United States and the Soviet Union as cochairs, to continue the negotiations. The conference convened in Geneva, Switzerland, on December 21. Although Jordan participated, Syria declined to attend, and the PLO was not invited. After two days of public posturing, the conference was suspended and failed to reconvene.

...

This technique yielded the first Egyptian-Israeli military disengagement agreement, calling for Israel?s withdrawal back across the Suez Canal and the restoration in January 1974 of a UN peacekeeping force in the canal zone.

Here's a map I found describing the state at the end of the '73 war:
Map o' truth

So lets see. Egypt, Syria and Jordan COMBINED, with support of Soviet army (including Soviet airforce, which had presence in this area) clearly lost the war.
Israel crossed the Suez canal, invaded into Egypt and could have gone into Cairo (and in the northern front, Damascus).
If not for the good will of Israel and intervention by the Soviets, Egypt would have lost it's 3rd army.

Ok, lets move on -

2. Hizbullah is "kicking our ass"? Loosing more than 200 of it's members and much of the medium and long rocket launching capabilities? Israel can't do any better than that because of the regard to civil life.
Look at the raid performed by special forces in Baal Bek, that was 100% pure pwnage.

3. That's the hard evidence you have? Captured soldiers? What about the stories about Egyptian soldiers that took off their shoes and began running back to Egypt?
Anyway, the Bar Lev line was destroyed at the beginning of the war, inflicting heavy casualities on Israel. Later on, when done with the Syrian front, Israel took care of that - again, crossing Suez canal, like it or not.

Now for the fun part -

Originally posted by: Gamer X
As for "where Egypt is and where Israel is". I admit that Egypt is currently in a very bad condition because it is governed by a dictator.

What other Arab country isn't? Don't you think it's some kind of a recurring pattern?

But I know where Israel is. Yes you are very advanced and yes your end is near. Why?

-Iran ?

Iran will go down, don't worry about it. Iran is much weaker than their wacko president portrays, and besides, no Arab country - other than Syria - wants Teharan to have nuclear weapons.

-Arab nations are beginning to rebel against their dictator rulers who have done nothing but bring down their countries and help the US control the region. Mubarak can not even control the country anymore and his end is near. Prepare for a totally different government in Egypt.

Yes, I agree on that. The problem is that US you dislike so much has provided Egypt with huge amounts of arms.
You can rely on Israel not starting a war with Egypt, but you can't say the opposite when some Islamic madman you seem to like so much takes control of your country and kicks you straight into the bibilical days - look at Iran.
It'll get ugly, no doubt.

- The US which helps you is in deep trouble in Iraq.

Israel did not require direct US military intervention in any of it's past conflict, and with Israel much stronger than it was in the day - while Syria is much weaker and Jordan neutralized - can more than take care of itself.

BTW, I don't know what do you mean by "you're allowed to use the Internet back in Egypt". It was never blocked before. Maybe that's part of the propaganda your government is feeding you.

So you claim to have freedom of speech and uncensored web access? I'd be surprised, honestly.

You should be more thankful for the dictator Mubarak. He, along the late Saddat, is the one responsible for the nice army you have, the generous foreign help you receive from US and your country not looking like Saudi Arabia. We all heard of the Muslim Brotherhood and other peace-loving guys just waiting to seize control of Egypt.

I'm sure that once you collectively realize - and like it or not, you're on the way - that Israel is a fact that can not be undone, you will have more time and resources to take care of your own falling apart countries, and arrange yourselves nicer lives.
Good luck.

 

[straightalker]

Israel and America are Making some powerful mistakes

You mean the Military/Industrial Complex and it's owners and their payed for servants are making powerful mistakes. Well that's one set of mistakes.

Equally powerful, by way of not preventing a disaster, would be the set of mistakes we the people make, by failing to stop these war profiteers and psychopaths from driving the World into WWIII.

You see Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia all have nuclear weapons. That is why for instance the President of Iran has been being so cocky this year in the face of Israeli and USA threats of force against his Country.

Sensible sane human being of course realize that once a nuke flies one way, so does another and another and so on, ...back and forth back and forth. Tit for tat. The reason WWIII should be avoided by all possible means. The radiation and not the blast waves would be by far the main destruction. It is certifiable madness to destroy one's own planet.

The most powerful mistake leads to the most powerful destruction.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no way to win the hearts and minds of Muslims living in the ME. They are blinded by religion and are brainwashed from birth. Diplomacy is a waste of time with these people. They only understand violence and that is what they bring upon themselves with their actions. If the US and Israel took the gloves off and stopped fighting these animals constrained by politics there would none of them left.

It's sad to see how brainwashed some Americans are about these so called "animals" in the Middle East. They are everyday people like you and I, they work and go to school, watch movies, throw parties; they want to enjoy life as much as anyone else. To label the overwhelming majority of civilians as violent animals when they are anything but just shows how 'blinded' and 'brainwashed' you really are.

When is the last time you've visited the Middle East and lived among the civilians there Ronny?

I don't think anyone has an issue with the people you are talking about. It's the violent minority that's the problem here. I still think going into Iraq was a huge mistake though. How many have died? How many new enemies made? How much money wasted? What has been accomplished? In the end I don't feel any more safe here in the US and I feel less safe traveling outside the country. Also, the US reputation around the world is trash now and will take a long time to recover - if it's possible. It's a war that can't be won.

 

[Gamer X]

So lets see. Egypt, Syria and Jordan COMBINED, with support of Soviet army (including Soviet airforce, which had presence in this area) clearly lost the war.
Israel crossed the Suez canal, invaded into Egypt and could have gone into Cairo (and in the northern front, Damascus).
If not for the good will of Israel and intervention by the Soviets, Egypt would have lost it's 3rd army

Ask any veteran Israeli soldier who were in 1973 war. He will tell you what was the condition of the Israeli forces that crossed the Suez canal. All their tanks were destroyed and they got captured and killed. Their only use for Israel was propaganda which lasted till this day.

And the IDF can not enter Cairo or Damascus even if it was open for it because of its small numbers. It simply can not enter a heavy populated city like cairo.

What good will are you talking about ? Israel specialize in killing children. what do you think it could have done to the 3rd army if it could do anything ?

2. Hizbullah is "kicking our ass"? Loosing more than 200 of it's members and much of the medium and long rocket launching capabilities? Israel can't do any better than that because of the regard to civil life.
Look at the raid performed by special forces in Baal Bek, that was 100% pure pwnage.

Hizbullah destroyed 6 Merkava tanks just today :beer: and launched 300 rockets on Israel
despite your PM said that "the infrastructure of Hezbollah has been entirely destroyed" with more than 700 command positions "wiped out". here. The false propaganda continues.

Israel' regard of civil life like what happened in Qana ?

Your 100% pure pwnage in Balbak is hilarious. The Israeli soldiers captured 5 civilians 4 of them are over 50 and they were attcked by Hizbullah fighters and injured. Hizbullah challenged Israel to show to the world those 5 Hizbullah fighters it captured.

Iran will go down, don't worry about it. Iran is much weaker than their wacko president portrays, and besides, no Arab country - other than Syria - wants Teharan to have nuclear weapons.

I'm not worrying about it. I'll leave the worry to you. And who is wacko ? Last time I checked, Iranian president did not order the bombing of children.

Israel did not require direct US military intervention in any of it's past conflict, and with Israel much stronger than it was in the day - while Syria is much weaker and Jordan neutralized - can more than take care of itself.

What about 1973 ? They saved you from extinction. What about the bombs and jet fuel they transferred to you in the last escalations ? You must live in dreamland or you are a liar.

You should be more thankful for the dictator Mubarak. He, along the late Saddat, is the one responsible for the nice army you have, the generous foreign help you receive from US and your country not looking like Saudi Arabia. We all heard of the Muslim Brotherhood and other peace-loving guys just waiting to seize control of Egypt.

Nothing comes for free. The US does not give out charity. They give us this help because we serve their interests just like the help they give to Israel; because it's basically a huge military base for them. And this help is pathetic compared to what Egypt can do if it were governed by someone who serves Egypt's own interests.

I'm sure that once you collectively realize - and like it or not, you're on the way - that Israel is a fact that can not be undone, you will have more time and resources to take care of your own falling apart countries, and arrange yourselves nicer lives.

The crusaders lasted in Palestine more than 100 years before and they established kingdoms and they were kicked out in the end.

There are few Israelis who want peace, who have enough morals not to kill children. I admire those people and I am ready to live in peace with them and forget the fact that their fathers stole the land of Palestine but these are few peolpe among the majority of barbourous Israeli murderers who are only diggigng their own grave.

Besides Koran predicted the establishment of Israel and its destruction :

From Sura - 17 The Children of Israel (Bani Israel)

[17:4] We addressed the Children of Israel in the scripture: "You will commit gross evil on earth, twice. You are destined to fall into great heights of arrogance.[17:5] "When the first time comes to pass, we will send against you servants of ours who possess great might, and they will invade your homes. This is a prophecy that must come to pass. [17:6] "Afterwards, we will give you a turn over them, and will supply you with a lot of wealth and children; we will give you the upper hand.[17:7] "If you work righteousness, you work righteousness for your own good, but if you commit evil you do so to your own detriment. Thus, when the second time comes to pass, they will defeat you and enter the mosque, just as they did the first time. They will wipe out all the gains you had accomplished."

 

[SamurAchzar]

Sorry, but I'm lacking the mental ability to undo what many years of brainwashing have done to you and your likes.
You're living in a complete fantasy world which, peculiarly, no one else out of the Arab world is familiar with.

In your world, Israel murders children, Egypt has won the war of '73 and 6 Merkava tanks were destroyed today (as opposed to not even one I heard of).
And by the way, who said Iran will not use its Nukes on you just like it used Chemical warfare on Iraqis? You Arabs are violent to each other, the only thing that unite your sorry nations is the haterd to Israel.

If you are a true representative of the Egyptian people, it's easy to understand how and why Egypt lost all it's battles with Israel - and even more important, why Egypt started these battles in the first place.

Well, we could predict the future in two ways. One is the reality, in which Israel always vanquished, the other is the Koran. Let the games begin...

 

[MikeSci457DC]

Wow, you are both embarassments to your respective countries.

Keep looking to the past to solve things. Yea......that'll work \sarcasm

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: MikeSci457DC
Wow, you are both embarassments to your respective countries.

Keep looking to the past to solve things. Yea......that'll work \sarcasm

????????
The past is very important.
So is history.
If you are suggesting that diplomacy will solve this as well as the laying down of arms on both sides - it will never happen.
Its been tried. All that has happenned is israel has given back land won from its military victories.
For what purpose? Peace?
Peace in the middle east is a joke...

http://members.cox.net/seaneng/MiddleEastResarch.htm
Even the Bible states there will never be PEACE in the middle east.

 

[saahmed]

Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no way to win the hearts and minds of Muslims living in the ME. They are blinded by religion and are brainwashed from birth. Diplomacy is a waste of time with these people. They only understand violence and that is what they bring upon themselves with their actions. If the US and Israel took the gloves off and stopped fighting these animals constrained by politics there would none of them left.

How it this so. You can even watch an American news netwrok and see that probably the majority are not violent. The people of Lebanon are having to live on the streets due to Israeli violence, they are just normal people, many of them not religious at all. Its ridiculous that you think they should defend their land. Hezbollah, currently, is just defending Lebanon, their not terrorizing or doing anything in the name of religion. They are operating as any army would in wanting to protect their land.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: saahmed

Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no way to win the hearts and minds of Muslims living in the ME. They are blinded by religion and are brainwashed from birth. Diplomacy is a waste of time with these people. They only understand violence and that is what they bring upon themselves with their actions. If the US and Israel took the gloves off and stopped fighting these animals constrained by politics there would none of them left.

How it this so. You can even watch an American news netwrok and see that probably the majority are not violent. The people of Lebanon are having to live on the streets due to Israeli violence, they are just normal people, many of them not religious at all. Its ridiculous that you think they should defend their land. Hezbollah, currently, is just defending Lebanon, their not terrorizing or doing anything in the name of religion. They are operating as any army would in wanting to protect their land.

So if Israel kidnapped two, lets say, Jordanian soldiers and killed 8 others with no provokation, would that be just "defending Israel"?
It's even not double standards, it's a complete denial of reality, in which Hizbullah attacked and is now, along with the country who encouraged it, paying the price.

 

[saahmed]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: saahmed

Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no way to win the hearts and minds of Muslims living in the ME. They are blinded by religion and are brainwashed from birth. Diplomacy is a waste of time with these people. They only understand violence and that is what they bring upon themselves with their actions. If the US and Israel took the gloves off and stopped fighting these animals constrained by politics there would none of them left.

How it this so. You can even watch an American news netwrok and see that probably the majority are not violent. The people of Lebanon are having to live on the streets due to Israeli violence, they are just normal people, many of them not religious at all. Its ridiculous that you think they should defend their land. Hezbollah, currently, is just defending Lebanon, their not terrorizing or doing anything in the name of religion. They are operating as any army would in wanting to protect their land.

So if Israel kidnapped two, lets say, Jordanian soldiers and killed 8 others with no provokation, would that be just "defending Israel"?
It's even not double standards, it's a complete denial of reality, in which Hizbullah attacked and is now, along with the country who encouraged it, paying the price.

They were provoked by the killing of several Palestinians on a beach. Israel claims they did not do it, but at the time they thought it was Israeli missiles, and there really is not proof against it.

 

[LunarRay]

There is some very interesting dialog posted in this thread.
National Pride and hatred for one another.
Nothing will be solved by diplomatic means because it seems each side believes they are invincible and can't stand being on earth with the other or so it seems.
IF I were President of the US....
Aside from Israel I'm all for pulling every US GI and influence out of the ME and let what ever occurs occur. Of course it is paramount that the other big boys on the block refrain from involving themselves in the events that would follow and align themselves with the US to insure All Arab or Persian nations can sort out their own issues. The condition for this 'move' would be that the land and people of Israel is to be left alone as well as non Arab nations..
I would insure compliance by stating that any terror or any other attack on the soil of Israel would be deemed as an attack on the US and Allied Nations requiring immediate and complete termination of the governments involved. Not the people but the entire government would be visited by a terror beyond comprehension.
So if some extremist group wished to visit the US, Israel or the allied nations and destroy some assets or harm some folks.. well ok... but in so doing I'd not go find the terrorists involved... I'd find the supporters, governments and or just simply guess... eventually I'd be right..
The point I'm making is simple, I think.. I don't want any US citizen to be mucking up what for centuries has been the way of life for folks in the ME... that is their way. But, Israel is different. That little patch of land and the folks living there that claim citizenship are protected... I don't care who owned what or deserves whatever.. in this case that is the rule.. abide by it or deal with what occurs..
US citizens are interesting people and no different than other people in the world. Give us enough reason to go to war and we will. But, the next war must be to terminate, not having to redo or sit and bake in the hot sand... quick and final.. the US has the big stick.. and by golly I'd use it..

 

[imported_toxigun]

Originally posted by: Gamer X
Israel' regard of civil life like what happened in Qana ?

I believe you don't understand how the military works. They get intelligence reports about places where Hezbolla is operating. If the army gets a report about house X in place Y that Hezbolla is operating there, that house becomes a LEGITIMATE TARGET. Yes, even if there are civilians, it is a legitimate target, because the enemy operates from there. Nobody attacks houses just for fun. All targets are attacked because intelligence reported that they are used by Hezbolla.
The target is, of course, Hezbolla. The usage of civilian buildings and infrastructure by the Hezbolla is the primary cause of civilian casualties.

In the case of Qana, it was an intelligence error. Nothing less, nothing more. Nobody attacked that house just to kill families (unlike Hamas and Hezbolla, that deliberately kill civilians just for the purpose of killing civilians). This house was attacked because of intelligence reports. Intelligence cannot be perfect, and you all understand and know it.

Imagine yourself, a commander of your country's army, getting an intelligence report that a house X stores Y missiles that might be fired on your country. This intelligence has, for example, 75% chance of being correct. Wouldn't you bomb it immediately (taking the 25% chance that the intelligence might be wrong and you will kill innocent people)?

Imagine another situation. Your intelligence is 95% correct, but the report states that the house is populated by 20 civilians and 5 Hezbolla operatives. Would you bomb it? Would you do something else? Would you take the chance that those missiles will be fired on your country?

 

[imported_toxigun]

And additionally, Mr. Gamer X, it is also known that the Israeli intelligence is quite good. So if it was your beloves Egyptian army fighting the Hezbolla, I can assure you that the civilian casualties would be much greater, just because of bad intelligence.

 

[Gamer X]

Israel's history of massacres is known and every time they claim it was unintentional and after a few years it becomes even imaginary and never happened.

 

[imported_toxigun]

And still, it is obvious that if it was your country fighting such organizations, your intelligence reports would have much more errors and as a result you would kill much much more innocent civilians. PERIOD.

And please don't show me things that happened before the state of Israel was formed. Things like the king david incident were not performed by a state, but by terrorist organizations like Ezel and Lehi that existed at that time, not by the state of Israel.

 

[Gamer X]

Those terrorist organizations are the ones who established the terrorist state of Israel. If you don't like king david explosion start reading the massacres after 1948. I don't understand your obsession with the Egyptian army and what does it have to do with this ?