Israel lobby comes out of the shadows and into the spotlight

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
I have mixed feelings on this issue. While I respect any machinery that's efficient and productive, I believe that it needs a natural enemy to keep it in check. The pro-Israel lobby has no such enemy. Like a foreign creature in new territory, it has become a parasite to the natural order. But it takes two to tango and this lobby has found willing slaves and allies in America. God willing, Americans will wake up to this and stop it before its policies consume them.

No doubt some will consider me an anti-semite without even knowing what the word means. It doesn't matter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7104030.stm

US storm over book on Israel lobby

The power of America's "Jewish lobby" is said to be legendary.


Commentators the world over refer to it, as though it were a well-established fact that US Jews wield far more influence than their numbers (2% of the population) would suggest.

But this presumed influence is also a delicate issue in the US, and is rarely analysed.

How does the lobby work? Is its power truly legendary, or just a legend?

Two US academics, John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen Walt of Harvard, have set out to answer those questions, and triggered a firestorm of controversy as a result.

Their book The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy, which builds on a 2006 article in the London Review of Books, says the reasons for US support for Israel need to be explained.

America spends $3bn a year in largely military assistance - one-sixth of its direct aid budget - to help a prosperous, nuclear-armed country, and strongly backs Israel in negotiations on Middle East peace.

But according to Mearsheimer and Walt, the US gets remarkably little in return.

They reject the argument that Israel is a key ally in America's "war on terror".

On the contrary, they contend, US patronage of Israel fuels militant anger - as well as fostering resentment in Arab countries that control vital oil supplies.

One-sided

The authors also reject the common view of Israel as a democratic outpost that needs protection from deadly enemies.

It is indeed a vibrant democracy, they say, but also a regional giant ready to use its considerable firepower against civilians.

If both these arguments are weak, they say, the real reason behind US support for Israel is domestic - the activities of the American Israel Political Action Committee (Aipac), the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), and like-minded groups and think tanks.

Mearsheimer and Walt do not talk of a "Jewish lobby", as these groups do not speak for all US Jews and include many non-Jews, but of an "Israel lobby", whose main aim, they say, is to convince America that its interests are aligned with those of the Israeli state.

The book analyses the lobby's sources of influence - notably its financial muscle and the reluctance of critics to speak out.

Pro-Israeli contributions to US campaigns dwarf those of Arab-Americans or Muslim groups.

Like other interest groups, the Israel lobby also influences debate by rounding on politicians and commentators who take positions it does not like - but it does it particularly effectively, according to Mearsheimer and Walt.

Those who might think of questioning US support for Israel know they are in for a fight, making it more trouble than it is worth.

The resulting lack of discussion, the book says, has skewed US policies across the Middle East.

Most controversially, it argues that the lobby played an important role in the Iraq war.

No conspiracy

Perhaps not surprisingly, Mearsheimer and Walt have unleashed a torrent of criticism - though not from Aipac, which has made no comment.

"Their conclusions are classic anti-Semitic canards - such as control of foreign policy against the interest of the US, the Jews controlling the media and getting America into war," ADL director Abraham Foxman told the BBC News website.

After reading the original article, Mr Foxman wrote a book-length rebuttal entitled The Deadliest Lies: The Israel Lobby and The Myth of Jewish Control.

Many attacks have been highly personal.

In a fierce critique of their scholarship, Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote in the New Republic of the original article: "Were 'The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy' an actual person, I would have to say that he did not have a single honest bone in his body."

Virtually all reviews of the book in the mainstream US press have been negative.

"They have often misrepresented our arguments badly or tried to smear us by either saying or hinting that we are anti-Semitic," Mr Walt told the BBC News website.

He and Mr Mearsheimer deny recycling old fantasies of Jewish conspiracies. Their book repeatedly states that pro-Israeli lobbying is not secretive, but conforms to the open rules of America's democratic system.

The authors regard their excoriation in the US press as a sign of the lobby's effectiveness, and point out that reviews abroad have been much more favourable.

"This in some way confirms our basic argument that it's much easier to talk about this subject outside the United States than we do inside the US," he says.

Cause and effect

However, some of Mearsheimer and Walt's US critics have been less vitriolic and harder to dismiss as angry polemic.

Robert Lieberman, a Columbia University political scientist, argues that they overstate the lobby's financial power.

Mearsheimer and Walt cite cases of members of Congress losing their seats after running afoul of pro-Israeli groups which then bankrolled their opponents.

But Mr Lieberman says the contributions involved are unlikely to make a difference and the book fails to establish a clear link between lobby money and victory.

Senate Minority leader Tom Daschle lost his seat in 2004 despite the fact that he got more pro-Israel funding than any candidate that year.

"For any anecdote they come up with, you can come up with an anecdote that demonstrates the opposite," Mr Lieberman says.

Perhaps the most contentious argument in the book is the direct causal link it tries to establish between lobby activity and US Middle East policies.

But political preferences can be influenced by any number of factors, such as popular pressure, party politics or heartfelt conviction.

Although Mearsheimer and Walt do their best to discard those alternative explanations for the US pro-Israeli stance, many are unconvinced.

"Is this the manipulation of a tiny group, or is this politicians not wanting to take a stand that is unpopular with the broader public?" Walter Russell Mead, of the Council on Foreign Relations, told the BBC News website.

Mr Mead - who wrote a lengthy critique of the book in the journal Foreign Affairs - also says Mearsheimer and Walt give too vague a definition of the lobby to make any credible conclusion about its impact.

Opening up

The fact that the book invites criticism, however, is also a strength. Its scholarly, dispassionate tone is meant to encourage a debate.

"Reasonable people can disagree and one of the reasons we want to have a discussion is to get issues out in the open so people can talk about them," Mr Walt says.

Tony Judt - a prominent historian and critic of Israel - does not accept every point made by Mearsheimer and Walt, but he credits them with lifting a taboo.

The main effect of the lobby, he says, has been self-censorship. "There are people out there who are anti-Semitic obviously, and you don't want to find yourself in their company, so you end up saying nothing," he says.

Mr Judt himself is not afraid to speak out, but he has to tread more carefully when he criticises Israeli policies in the US than he does in Israel itself.

"I have written articles in Haaretz that no American newspapers would touch," he says.

In this context, he adds, Mearsheimer and Walt's book is an "enormous act of intellectual courage".

"They gained nothing from it, but the community has really gained something because with each little step like that, the conversation opens up a bit more."

 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Narmer
I have mixed feelings on this issue. While I respect any machinery that's efficient and productive, I believe that it needs a natural enemy to keep it in check. The pro-Israel lobby has no such enemy. Like a foreign creature in new territory, it has become a parasite to the natural order. But it takes two to tango and this lobby has found willing slaves and allies in America. God willing, Americans will wake up to this and stop it before its policies consume them.

No doubt some will consider me an anti-semite without even knowing what the word means. It doesn't matter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7104030.stm

US storm over book on Israel lobby

The power of America's "Jewish lobby" is said to be legendary.


Commentators the world over refer to it, as though it were a well-established fact that US Jews wield far more influence than their numbers (2% of the population) would suggest.

But this presumed influence is also a delicate issue in the US, and is rarely analysed.

How does the lobby work? Is its power truly legendary, or just a legend?

Two US academics, John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen Walt of Harvard, have set out to answer those questions, and triggered a firestorm of controversy as a result.

Their book The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy, which builds on a 2006 article in the London Review of Books, says the reasons for US support for Israel need to be explained.

America spends $3bn a year in largely military assistance - one-sixth of its direct aid budget - to help a prosperous, nuclear-armed country, and strongly backs Israel in negotiations on Middle East peace.

But according to Mearsheimer and Walt, the US gets remarkably little in return.

They reject the argument that Israel is a key ally in America's "war on terror".

On the contrary, they contend, US patronage of Israel fuels militant anger - as well as fostering resentment in Arab countries that control vital oil supplies.

One-sided

The authors also reject the common view of Israel as a democratic outpost that needs protection from deadly enemies.

It is indeed a vibrant democracy, they say, but also a regional giant ready to use its considerable firepower against civilians.

If both these arguments are weak, they say, the real reason behind US support for Israel is domestic - the activities of the American Israel Political Action Committee (Aipac), the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), and like-minded groups and think tanks.

Mearsheimer and Walt do not talk of a "Jewish lobby", as these groups do not speak for all US Jews and include many non-Jews, but of an "Israel lobby", whose main aim, they say, is to convince America that its interests are aligned with those of the Israeli state.

The book analyses the lobby's sources of influence - notably its financial muscle and the reluctance of critics to speak out.

Pro-Israeli contributions to US campaigns dwarf those of Arab-Americans or Muslim groups.

Like other interest groups, the Israel lobby also influences debate by rounding on politicians and commentators who take positions it does not like - but it does it particularly effectively, according to Mearsheimer and Walt.

Those who might think of questioning US support for Israel know they are in for a fight, making it more trouble than it is worth.

The resulting lack of discussion, the book says, has skewed US policies across the Middle East.

Most controversially, it argues that the lobby played an important role in the Iraq war.

No conspiracy

Perhaps not surprisingly, Mearsheimer and Walt have unleashed a torrent of criticism - though not from Aipac, which has made no comment.

"Their conclusions are classic anti-Semitic canards - such as control of foreign policy against the interest of the US, the Jews controlling the media and getting America into war," ADL director Abraham Foxman told the BBC News website.

After reading the original article, Mr Foxman wrote a book-length rebuttal entitled The Deadliest Lies: The Israel Lobby and The Myth of Jewish Control.

Many attacks have been highly personal.

In a fierce critique of their scholarship, Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote in the New Republic of the original article: "Were 'The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy' an actual person, I would have to say that he did not have a single honest bone in his body."

Virtually all reviews of the book in the mainstream US press have been negative.

"They have often misrepresented our arguments badly or tried to smear us by either saying or hinting that we are anti-Semitic," Mr Walt told the BBC News website.

He and Mr Mearsheimer deny recycling old fantasies of Jewish conspiracies. Their book repeatedly states that pro-Israeli lobbying is not secretive, but conforms to the open rules of America's democratic system.

The authors regard their excoriation in the US press as a sign of the lobby's effectiveness, and point out that reviews abroad have been much more favourable.

"This in some way confirms our basic argument that it's much easier to talk about this subject outside the United States than we do inside the US," he says.

Cause and effect

However, some of Mearsheimer and Walt's US critics have been less vitriolic and harder to dismiss as angry polemic.

Robert Lieberman, a Columbia University political scientist, argues that they overstate the lobby's financial power.

Mearsheimer and Walt cite cases of members of Congress losing their seats after running afoul of pro-Israeli groups which then bankrolled their opponents.

But Mr Lieberman says the contributions involved are unlikely to make a difference and the book fails to establish a clear link between lobby money and victory.

Senate Minority leader Tom Daschle lost his seat in 2004 despite the fact that he got more pro-Israel funding than any candidate that year.

"For any anecdote they come up with, you can come up with an anecdote that demonstrates the opposite," Mr Lieberman says.

Perhaps the most contentious argument in the book is the direct causal link it tries to establish between lobby activity and US Middle East policies.

But political preferences can be influenced by any number of factors, such as popular pressure, party politics or heartfelt conviction.

Although Mearsheimer and Walt do their best to discard those alternative explanations for the US pro-Israeli stance, many are unconvinced.

"Is this the manipulation of a tiny group, or is this politicians not wanting to take a stand that is unpopular with the broader public?" Walter Russell Mead, of the Council on Foreign Relations, told the BBC News website.

Mr Mead - who wrote a lengthy critique of the book in the journal Foreign Affairs - also says Mearsheimer and Walt give too vague a definition of the lobby to make any credible conclusion about its impact.

Opening up

The fact that the book invites criticism, however, is also a strength. Its scholarly, dispassionate tone is meant to encourage a debate.

"Reasonable people can disagree and one of the reasons we want to have a discussion is to get issues out in the open so people can talk about them," Mr Walt says.

Tony Judt - a prominent historian and critic of Israel - does not accept every point made by Mearsheimer and Walt, but he credits them with lifting a taboo.

The main effect of the lobby, he says, has been self-censorship. "There are people out there who are anti-Semitic obviously, and you don't want to find yourself in their company, so you end up saying nothing," he says.

Mr Judt himself is not afraid to speak out, but he has to tread more carefully when he criticises Israeli policies in the US than he does in Israel itself.

"I have written articles in Haaretz that no American newspapers would touch," he says.

In this context, he adds, Mearsheimer and Walt's book is an "enormous act of intellectual courage".

"They gained nothing from it, but the community has really gained something because with each little step like that, the conversation opens up a bit more."
Mohammed realized early on in his worthless life that the children of Israel needed to be eliminated as a political force in the world, in order for Islam to reign supreme.

We should embrace an idea to remove the checks, and thus the balance. It would serve us well....


 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Narmer
I have mixed feelings on this issue. While I respect any machinery that's efficient and productive, I believe that it needs a natural enemy to keep it in check. The pro-Israel lobby has no such enemy. Like a foreign creature in new territory, it has become a parasite to the natural order. But it takes two to tango and this lobby has found willing slaves and allies in America. God willing, Americans will wake up to this and stop it before its policies consume them.

No doubt some will consider me an anti-semite without even knowing what the word means. It doesn't matter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7104030.stm

US storm over book on Israel lobby

The power of America's "Jewish lobby" is said to be legendary.


Commentators the world over refer to it, as though it were a well-established fact that US Jews wield far more influence than their numbers (2% of the population) would suggest.

But this presumed influence is also a delicate issue in the US, and is rarely analysed.

How does the lobby work? Is its power truly legendary, or just a legend?

Two US academics, John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen Walt of Harvard, have set out to answer those questions, and triggered a firestorm of controversy as a result.

Their book The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy, which builds on a 2006 article in the London Review of Books, says the reasons for US support for Israel need to be explained.

America spends $3bn a year in largely military assistance - one-sixth of its direct aid budget - to help a prosperous, nuclear-armed country, and strongly backs Israel in negotiations on Middle East peace.

But according to Mearsheimer and Walt, the US gets remarkably little in return.

They reject the argument that Israel is a key ally in America's "war on terror".

On the contrary, they contend, US patronage of Israel fuels militant anger - as well as fostering resentment in Arab countries that control vital oil supplies.

One-sided

The authors also reject the common view of Israel as a democratic outpost that needs protection from deadly enemies.

It is indeed a vibrant democracy, they say, but also a regional giant ready to use its considerable firepower against civilians.

If both these arguments are weak, they say, the real reason behind US support for Israel is domestic - the activities of the American Israel Political Action Committee (Aipac), the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), and like-minded groups and think tanks.

Mearsheimer and Walt do not talk of a "Jewish lobby", as these groups do not speak for all US Jews and include many non-Jews, but of an "Israel lobby", whose main aim, they say, is to convince America that its interests are aligned with those of the Israeli state.

The book analyses the lobby's sources of influence - notably its financial muscle and the reluctance of critics to speak out.

Pro-Israeli contributions to US campaigns dwarf those of Arab-Americans or Muslim groups.

Like other interest groups, the Israel lobby also influences debate by rounding on politicians and commentators who take positions it does not like - but it does it particularly effectively, according to Mearsheimer and Walt.

Those who might think of questioning US support for Israel know they are in for a fight, making it more trouble than it is worth.

The resulting lack of discussion, the book says, has skewed US policies across the Middle East.

Most controversially, it argues that the lobby played an important role in the Iraq war.

No conspiracy

Perhaps not surprisingly, Mearsheimer and Walt have unleashed a torrent of criticism - though not from Aipac, which has made no comment.

"Their conclusions are classic anti-Semitic canards - such as control of foreign policy against the interest of the US, the Jews controlling the media and getting America into war," ADL director Abraham Foxman told the BBC News website.

After reading the original article, Mr Foxman wrote a book-length rebuttal entitled The Deadliest Lies: The Israel Lobby and The Myth of Jewish Control.

Many attacks have been highly personal.

In a fierce critique of their scholarship, Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote in the New Republic of the original article: "Were 'The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy' an actual person, I would have to say that he did not have a single honest bone in his body."

Virtually all reviews of the book in the mainstream US press have been negative.

"They have often misrepresented our arguments badly or tried to smear us by either saying or hinting that we are anti-Semitic," Mr Walt told the BBC News website.

He and Mr Mearsheimer deny recycling old fantasies of Jewish conspiracies. Their book repeatedly states that pro-Israeli lobbying is not secretive, but conforms to the open rules of America's democratic system.

The authors regard their excoriation in the US press as a sign of the lobby's effectiveness, and point out that reviews abroad have been much more favourable.

"This in some way confirms our basic argument that it's much easier to talk about this subject outside the United States than we do inside the US," he says.

Cause and effect

However, some of Mearsheimer and Walt's US critics have been less vitriolic and harder to dismiss as angry polemic.

Robert Lieberman, a Columbia University political scientist, argues that they overstate the lobby's financial power.

Mearsheimer and Walt cite cases of members of Congress losing their seats after running afoul of pro-Israeli groups which then bankrolled their opponents.

But Mr Lieberman says the contributions involved are unlikely to make a difference and the book fails to establish a clear link between lobby money and victory.

Senate Minority leader Tom Daschle lost his seat in 2004 despite the fact that he got more pro-Israel funding than any candidate that year.

"For any anecdote they come up with, you can come up with an anecdote that demonstrates the opposite," Mr Lieberman says.

Perhaps the most contentious argument in the book is the direct causal link it tries to establish between lobby activity and US Middle East policies.

But political preferences can be influenced by any number of factors, such as popular pressure, party politics or heartfelt conviction.

Although Mearsheimer and Walt do their best to discard those alternative explanations for the US pro-Israeli stance, many are unconvinced.

"Is this the manipulation of a tiny group, or is this politicians not wanting to take a stand that is unpopular with the broader public?" Walter Russell Mead, of the Council on Foreign Relations, told the BBC News website.

Mr Mead - who wrote a lengthy critique of the book in the journal Foreign Affairs - also says Mearsheimer and Walt give too vague a definition of the lobby to make any credible conclusion about its impact.

Opening up

The fact that the book invites criticism, however, is also a strength. Its scholarly, dispassionate tone is meant to encourage a debate.

"Reasonable people can disagree and one of the reasons we want to have a discussion is to get issues out in the open so people can talk about them," Mr Walt says.

Tony Judt - a prominent historian and critic of Israel - does not accept every point made by Mearsheimer and Walt, but he credits them with lifting a taboo.

The main effect of the lobby, he says, has been self-censorship. "There are people out there who are anti-Semitic obviously, and you don't want to find yourself in their company, so you end up saying nothing," he says.

Mr Judt himself is not afraid to speak out, but he has to tread more carefully when he criticises Israeli policies in the US than he does in Israel itself.

"I have written articles in Haaretz that no American newspapers would touch," he says.

In this context, he adds, Mearsheimer and Walt's book is an "enormous act of intellectual courage".

"They gained nothing from it, but the community has really gained something because with each little step like that, the conversation opens up a bit more."
Mohammed realized early on in his worthless life that the children of Israel needed to be eliminated as a political force in the world, in order for Islam to reign supreme.

We should embrace an idea to remove the checks, and thus the balance. It would serve us well....

That's a lie. The Prophet Muhammed went against the Jews of Mecca because they rejected him as a prophet. He had nothing against Jews in general. BTW, how does your lie equate to trying to balance out the power of the Israeli lobby?
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Weren't the Jews and the Muslims friends during the spread of Islam?

Not all Jews. Certain Jews sought to impede destiny and were dealt with. Others became a part of the Islamic revolution. Even Christian Ethiopia has a special place amongst Muslims for providing sanctuary for the Prophet when he was losing against the Kings of Arabia. With their help, he bounced back and conquered them all.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Mohammed realized early on in his worthless life that the children of Israel needed to be eliminated as a political force in the world, in order for Islam to reign supreme.

We should embrace an idea to remove the checks, and thus the balance. It would serve us well....

Well you know if a tribe of people - whether they be Jews, blacks, whites, other Arabs, or even penguins try to conspire with those who kill you....you aren't supposed to walk in with flowers.
Anyways don't derail this thread - and I hope that others can probably ignore the rest of these comments because I know where it is going to go - and it isn't the subject at hand.

That said you totally ignored the point of this thread - one which is VERY valid. And the [as always very balanced ] BBC articles discusses what both "Sides" think.

And living in America its undeniable that this is such a "senstive" issue because you get declared an ani semite immediately! I even remember an instance where Dark Thinker - a Lebanese IIRC -was mad at Israel during the bombing of Lebanon and one person actually said "I think you honestly might be anti semitic". HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.
If Canada bombed the US no SH|T I'd be pissed at Canada, but that doesn't mean I have a natural hatred for them.

I'm glad this book got published, and I hope that as time moves on we can more critical about Israel in the USA. Because in the US, it is about OUR democracy - and just like many scream that we should not be beholden to Oil Interests in the Middle East, we also should not be beholden to Israeli interests.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Mohammed realized early on in his worthless life that the children of Israel needed to be eliminated as a political force in the world, in order for Islam to reign supreme.

We should embrace an idea to remove the checks, and thus the balance. It would serve us well....

Well you know if a tribe of people - whether they be Jews, blacks, whites, other Arabs, or even penguins try to conspire with those who kill you....you aren't supposed to walk in with flowers.
Anyways don't derail this thread - and I hope that others can probably ignore the rest of these comments because I know where it is going to go - and it isn't the subject at hand.

That said you totally ignored the point of this thread - one which is VERY valid. And the [as always very balanced ] BBC articles discusses what both "Sides" think.

And living in America its undeniable that this is such a "senstive" issue because you get declared an ani semite immediately! I even remember an instance where Dark Thinker - a Lebanese IIRC -was mad at Israel during the bombing of Lebanon and one person actually said "I think you honestly might be anti semitic". HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.
If Canada bombed the US no SH|T I'd be pissed at Canada, but that doesn't mean I have a natural hatred for them.

I'm glad this book got published, and I hope that as time moves on we can more critical about Israel in the USA. Because in the US, it is about OUR democracy - and just like many scream that we should not be beholden to Oil Interests in the Middle East, we also should not be beholden to Israeli interests.

Thanks for this post. I laugh sometimes when Jews call Arabs "anti-Semitic" considering Arabs are also a Semitic people.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Narmer
I have mixed feelings on this issue. While I respect any machinery that's efficient and productive, I believe that it needs a natural enemy to keep it in check. The pro-Israel lobby has no such enemy. Like a foreign creature in new territory, it has become a parasite to the natural order. But it takes two to tango and this lobby has found willing slaves and allies in America. God willing, Americans will wake up to this and stop it before its policies consume them.

No doubt some will consider me an anti-semite without even knowing what the word means. It doesn't matter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7104030.stm

US storm over book on Israel lobby

The power of America's "Jewish lobby" is said to be legendary.


Commentators the world over refer to it, as though it were a well-established fact that US Jews wield far more influence than their numbers (2% of the population) would suggest.

But this presumed influence is also a delicate issue in the US, and is rarely analysed.

How does the lobby work? Is its power truly legendary, or just a legend?

Two US academics, John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen Walt of Harvard, have set out to answer those questions, and triggered a firestorm of controversy as a result.

Their book The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy, which builds on a 2006 article in the London Review of Books, says the reasons for US support for Israel need to be explained.

America spends $3bn a year in largely military assistance - one-sixth of its direct aid budget - to help a prosperous, nuclear-armed country, and strongly backs Israel in negotiations on Middle East peace.

But according to Mearsheimer and Walt, the US gets remarkably little in return.

They reject the argument that Israel is a key ally in America's "war on terror".

On the contrary, they contend, US patronage of Israel fuels militant anger - as well as fostering resentment in Arab countries that control vital oil supplies.

One-sided

The authors also reject the common view of Israel as a democratic outpost that needs protection from deadly enemies.

It is indeed a vibrant democracy, they say, but also a regional giant ready to use its considerable firepower against civilians.

If both these arguments are weak, they say, the real reason behind US support for Israel is domestic - the activities of the American Israel Political Action Committee (Aipac), the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), and like-minded groups and think tanks.

Mearsheimer and Walt do not talk of a "Jewish lobby", as these groups do not speak for all US Jews and include many non-Jews, but of an "Israel lobby", whose main aim, they say, is to convince America that its interests are aligned with those of the Israeli state.

The book analyses the lobby's sources of influence - notably its financial muscle and the reluctance of critics to speak out.

Pro-Israeli contributions to US campaigns dwarf those of Arab-Americans or Muslim groups.

Like other interest groups, the Israel lobby also influences debate by rounding on politicians and commentators who take positions it does not like - but it does it particularly effectively, according to Mearsheimer and Walt.

Those who might think of questioning US support for Israel know they are in for a fight, making it more trouble than it is worth.

The resulting lack of discussion, the book says, has skewed US policies across the Middle East.

Most controversially, it argues that the lobby played an important role in the Iraq war.

No conspiracy

Perhaps not surprisingly, Mearsheimer and Walt have unleashed a torrent of criticism - though not from Aipac, which has made no comment.

"Their conclusions are classic anti-Semitic canards - such as control of foreign policy against the interest of the US, the Jews controlling the media and getting America into war," ADL director Abraham Foxman told the BBC News website.

After reading the original article, Mr Foxman wrote a book-length rebuttal entitled The Deadliest Lies: The Israel Lobby and The Myth of Jewish Control.

Many attacks have been highly personal.

In a fierce critique of their scholarship, Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote in the New Republic of the original article: "Were 'The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy' an actual person, I would have to say that he did not have a single honest bone in his body."

Virtually all reviews of the book in the mainstream US press have been negative.

"They have often misrepresented our arguments badly or tried to smear us by either saying or hinting that we are anti-Semitic," Mr Walt told the BBC News website.

He and Mr Mearsheimer deny recycling old fantasies of Jewish conspiracies. Their book repeatedly states that pro-Israeli lobbying is not secretive, but conforms to the open rules of America's democratic system.

The authors regard their excoriation in the US press as a sign of the lobby's effectiveness, and point out that reviews abroad have been much more favourable.

"This in some way confirms our basic argument that it's much easier to talk about this subject outside the United States than we do inside the US," he says.

Cause and effect

However, some of Mearsheimer and Walt's US critics have been less vitriolic and harder to dismiss as angry polemic.

Robert Lieberman, a Columbia University political scientist, argues that they overstate the lobby's financial power.

Mearsheimer and Walt cite cases of members of Congress losing their seats after running afoul of pro-Israeli groups which then bankrolled their opponents.

But Mr Lieberman says the contributions involved are unlikely to make a difference and the book fails to establish a clear link between lobby money and victory.

Senate Minority leader Tom Daschle lost his seat in 2004 despite the fact that he got more pro-Israel funding than any candidate that year.

"For any anecdote they come up with, you can come up with an anecdote that demonstrates the opposite," Mr Lieberman says.

Perhaps the most contentious argument in the book is the direct causal link it tries to establish between lobby activity and US Middle East policies.

But political preferences can be influenced by any number of factors, such as popular pressure, party politics or heartfelt conviction.

Although Mearsheimer and Walt do their best to discard those alternative explanations for the US pro-Israeli stance, many are unconvinced.

"Is this the manipulation of a tiny group, or is this politicians not wanting to take a stand that is unpopular with the broader public?" Walter Russell Mead, of the Council on Foreign Relations, told the BBC News website.

Mr Mead - who wrote a lengthy critique of the book in the journal Foreign Affairs - also says Mearsheimer and Walt give too vague a definition of the lobby to make any credible conclusion about its impact.

Opening up

The fact that the book invites criticism, however, is also a strength. Its scholarly, dispassionate tone is meant to encourage a debate.

"Reasonable people can disagree and one of the reasons we want to have a discussion is to get issues out in the open so people can talk about them," Mr Walt says.

Tony Judt - a prominent historian and critic of Israel - does not accept every point made by Mearsheimer and Walt, but he credits them with lifting a taboo.

The main effect of the lobby, he says, has been self-censorship. "There are people out there who are anti-Semitic obviously, and you don't want to find yourself in their company, so you end up saying nothing," he says.

Mr Judt himself is not afraid to speak out, but he has to tread more carefully when he criticises Israeli policies in the US than he does in Israel itself.

"I have written articles in Haaretz that no American newspapers would touch," he says.

In this context, he adds, Mearsheimer and Walt's book is an "enormous act of intellectual courage".

"They gained nothing from it, but the community has really gained something because with each little step like that, the conversation opens up a bit more."
Mohammed realized early on in his worthless life that the children of Israel needed to be eliminated as a political force in the world, in order for Islam to reign supreme.

We should embrace an idea to remove the checks, and thus the balance. It would serve us well....

That's a lie. The Prophet Muhammed went against the Jews of Mecca because they rejected him as a prophet. He had nothing against Jews in general. BTW, how does your lie equate to trying to balance out the power of the Israeli lobby?


muhammed went against the jews because he knew no other way to do battle with the fact that he was just another illiterate charasmatic. Eliminate the jew as a political force in the world, and their message becomes silent, which is, IIUC, what you advocate.


 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Narmer
I have mixed feelings on this issue. While I respect any machinery that's efficient and productive, I believe that it needs a natural enemy to keep it in check. The pro-Israel lobby has no such enemy. Like a foreign creature in new territory, it has become a parasite to the natural order. But it takes two to tango and this lobby has found willing slaves and allies in America. God willing, Americans will wake up to this and stop it before its policies consume them.

No doubt some will consider me an anti-semite without even knowing what the word means. It doesn't matter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7104030.stm

US storm over book on Israel lobby

The power of America's "Jewish lobby" is said to be legendary.


Commentators the world over refer to it, as though it were a well-established fact that US Jews wield far more influence than their numbers (2% of the population) would suggest.

But this presumed influence is also a delicate issue in the US, and is rarely analysed.

How does the lobby work? Is its power truly legendary, or just a legend?

Two US academics, John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen Walt of Harvard, have set out to answer those questions, and triggered a firestorm of controversy as a result.

Their book The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy, which builds on a 2006 article in the London Review of Books, says the reasons for US support for Israel need to be explained.

America spends $3bn a year in largely military assistance - one-sixth of its direct aid budget - to help a prosperous, nuclear-armed country, and strongly backs Israel in negotiations on Middle East peace.

But according to Mearsheimer and Walt, the US gets remarkably little in return.

They reject the argument that Israel is a key ally in America's "war on terror".

On the contrary, they contend, US patronage of Israel fuels militant anger - as well as fostering resentment in Arab countries that control vital oil supplies.

One-sided

The authors also reject the common view of Israel as a democratic outpost that needs protection from deadly enemies.

It is indeed a vibrant democracy, they say, but also a regional giant ready to use its considerable firepower against civilians.

If both these arguments are weak, they say, the real reason behind US support for Israel is domestic - the activities of the American Israel Political Action Committee (Aipac), the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), and like-minded groups and think tanks.

Mearsheimer and Walt do not talk of a "Jewish lobby", as these groups do not speak for all US Jews and include many non-Jews, but of an "Israel lobby", whose main aim, they say, is to convince America that its interests are aligned with those of the Israeli state.

The book analyses the lobby's sources of influence - notably its financial muscle and the reluctance of critics to speak out.

Pro-Israeli contributions to US campaigns dwarf those of Arab-Americans or Muslim groups.

Like other interest groups, the Israel lobby also influences debate by rounding on politicians and commentators who take positions it does not like - but it does it particularly effectively, according to Mearsheimer and Walt.

Those who might think of questioning US support for Israel know they are in for a fight, making it more trouble than it is worth.

The resulting lack of discussion, the book says, has skewed US policies across the Middle East.

Most controversially, it argues that the lobby played an important role in the Iraq war.

No conspiracy

Perhaps not surprisingly, Mearsheimer and Walt have unleashed a torrent of criticism - though not from Aipac, which has made no comment.

"Their conclusions are classic anti-Semitic canards - such as control of foreign policy against the interest of the US, the Jews controlling the media and getting America into war," ADL director Abraham Foxman told the BBC News website.

After reading the original article, Mr Foxman wrote a book-length rebuttal entitled The Deadliest Lies: The Israel Lobby and The Myth of Jewish Control.

Many attacks have been highly personal.

In a fierce critique of their scholarship, Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote in the New Republic of the original article: "Were 'The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy' an actual person, I would have to say that he did not have a single honest bone in his body."

Virtually all reviews of the book in the mainstream US press have been negative.

"They have often misrepresented our arguments badly or tried to smear us by either saying or hinting that we are anti-Semitic," Mr Walt told the BBC News website.

He and Mr Mearsheimer deny recycling old fantasies of Jewish conspiracies. Their book repeatedly states that pro-Israeli lobbying is not secretive, but conforms to the open rules of America's democratic system.

The authors regard their excoriation in the US press as a sign of the lobby's effectiveness, and point out that reviews abroad have been much more favourable.

"This in some way confirms our basic argument that it's much easier to talk about this subject outside the United States than we do inside the US," he says.

Cause and effect

However, some of Mearsheimer and Walt's US critics have been less vitriolic and harder to dismiss as angry polemic.

Robert Lieberman, a Columbia University political scientist, argues that they overstate the lobby's financial power.

Mearsheimer and Walt cite cases of members of Congress losing their seats after running afoul of pro-Israeli groups which then bankrolled their opponents.

But Mr Lieberman says the contributions involved are unlikely to make a difference and the book fails to establish a clear link between lobby money and victory.

Senate Minority leader Tom Daschle lost his seat in 2004 despite the fact that he got more pro-Israel funding than any candidate that year.

"For any anecdote they come up with, you can come up with an anecdote that demonstrates the opposite," Mr Lieberman says.

Perhaps the most contentious argument in the book is the direct causal link it tries to establish between lobby activity and US Middle East policies.

But political preferences can be influenced by any number of factors, such as popular pressure, party politics or heartfelt conviction.

Although Mearsheimer and Walt do their best to discard those alternative explanations for the US pro-Israeli stance, many are unconvinced.

"Is this the manipulation of a tiny group, or is this politicians not wanting to take a stand that is unpopular with the broader public?" Walter Russell Mead, of the Council on Foreign Relations, told the BBC News website.

Mr Mead - who wrote a lengthy critique of the book in the journal Foreign Affairs - also says Mearsheimer and Walt give too vague a definition of the lobby to make any credible conclusion about its impact.

Opening up

The fact that the book invites criticism, however, is also a strength. Its scholarly, dispassionate tone is meant to encourage a debate.

"Reasonable people can disagree and one of the reasons we want to have a discussion is to get issues out in the open so people can talk about them," Mr Walt says.

Tony Judt - a prominent historian and critic of Israel - does not accept every point made by Mearsheimer and Walt, but he credits them with lifting a taboo.

The main effect of the lobby, he says, has been self-censorship. "There are people out there who are anti-Semitic obviously, and you don't want to find yourself in their company, so you end up saying nothing," he says.

Mr Judt himself is not afraid to speak out, but he has to tread more carefully when he criticises Israeli policies in the US than he does in Israel itself.

"I have written articles in Haaretz that no American newspapers would touch," he says.

In this context, he adds, Mearsheimer and Walt's book is an "enormous act of intellectual courage".

"They gained nothing from it, but the community has really gained something because with each little step like that, the conversation opens up a bit more."
Mohammed realized early on in his worthless life that the children of Israel needed to be eliminated as a political force in the world, in order for Islam to reign supreme.

We should embrace an idea to remove the checks, and thus the balance. It would serve us well....

That's a lie. The Prophet Muhammed went against the Jews of Mecca because they rejected him as a prophet. He had nothing against Jews in general. BTW, how does your lie equate to trying to balance out the power of the Israeli lobby?


muhammed went against the jews because he knew no other way to do battle with the fact that he was just another illiterate charasmatic. Eliminate the jew as a political force in the world, and their message becomes silent, which is, IIUC, what you advocate.

You're an idiot that's trying to derail this thread. Nowhere in my initial statement did I mention the word "Jew." Neither did anyone mention the Prophet Muhammed until you brought it up. As I've stated before, you're a liar and yet you continue unabated. You should be ashamed of yourself for trying poison this thread. Go away.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
I believe that it needs a natural enemy to keep it in check. The pro-Israel lobby has no such enemy. Like a foreign creature in new territory, it has become a parasite to the natural order.

You don't have to post the words to know your message. Tell me, Narmer, what is the natural order? You need to look beyond our political machine to see it....
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned
I believe that it needs a natural enemy to keep it in check. The pro-Israel lobby has no such enemy. Like a foreign creature in new territory, it has become a parasite to the natural order.

You don't have to post the words to know your message. Tell me, Narmer, what is the natural order? You need to look beyond our political machine to see it....

Natural order would be Congressmen openly questioning why a rich country with nuclear weapons still need aid. Natural order would be America having a formal alliance with Israel before promising to defend her no matter what. The Israeli lobby has been extremely successful. That doesn't mean it's good.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
I'm happy to support Israel, no matter what. Their lobbyists are excellent.
 

fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
1,787
0
0
I've watched a PBS news piece on the authors of the book. They don't appear to be bat-shit crazy, and have many good points to contribute to this clusterfuck of foreign policy. Also, they're very conscious of the flak they were going to have launched at them for publishing their fact-based work. I find that admirable, given their position is academia.

As the BBC article points out, someting like 1/6th of US direct foreign aid goes to Israel, which is itself a technology behemoth in the middle east that can easily handle its own problems. It just doesn't smell "proper." Intel has R&D sites in Israel (where C2D was developed), FFS. I doubt that the employees there need help putting food on the table or getting medical care. Also, Israel has some of the best vendors for bio-tech research supplies in the world. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of times I've signed off on a multi-thousand dollar invoice and sent it off to Jerusalem. Israel is definitely not "barely scraping by" to deserve 1/6th of American aid destined for places where people are dying in droves from hunger and disease on a daily basis. Some culture of life we've got here. I suppose it's not really "giving away" money, since we get most of it back once we sell cluster bombs that rain on civilians in Lebanon.

As far the the "bastion of democracy in the ME" argument goes, I've read that Israel is somewhere on par, if not more dedicated to spying on the United States than Russia. Also, they have sold classified military technology to China which US has donated to them with categorical terms-of-use. Those terms were broken, despite US objections. Some freaking ally we've got there.

Let's not go into the moral objections some sane people in the US have toward the human rights abuses and evidence of blatant torture which Israel doles out with impunity in the occupied territories. That tangent would derail the thread.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
Originally posted by: fallout man
I've watched a PBS news piece on the authors of the book. They don't appear to be bat-shit crazy, and have many good points to contribute to this clusterfuck of foreign policy. Also, they're very conscious of the flak they were going to have launched at them for publishing their fact-based work. I find that admirable, given their position is academia.

As the BBC article points out, someting like 1/6th of US direct foreign aid goes to Israel, which is itself a technology behemoth in the middle east that can easily handle its own problems. It just doesn't smell "proper." Intel has R&D sites in Israel (where C2D was developed), FFS. I doubt that the employees there need help putting food on the table or getting medical care. Also, Israel has some of the best vendors for bio-tech research supplies in the world. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of times I've signed off on a multi-thousand dollar invoice and sent it off to Jerusalem. Israel is definitely not "barely scraping by" to deserve 1/6th of American aid destined for places where people are dying in droves from hunger and disease on a daily basis. Some culture of life we've got here. I suppose it's not really "giving away" money, since we get most of it back once we sell cluster bombs that rain on civilians in Lebanon.

As far the the "bastion of democracy in the ME" argument goes, I've read that Israel is somewhere on par, if not more dedicated to spying on the United States than Russia. Also, they have sold classified military technology to China which US has donated to them with categorical terms-of-use. Those terms were broken, despite US objections. Some freaking ally we've got there.

Let's not go into the moral objections some sane people in the US have toward the human rights abuses and evidence of blatant torture which Israel doles out with impunity in the occupied territories. That tangent would derail the thread.

Let`s not forget that the BBC has long been a bastion of lies and enuendo`s and out right hatred against anything having to do with israel!!
 

fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
1,787
0
0
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Let`s not forget that the BBC has long been a bastion of lies and enuendo`s and out right hatred against anything having to do with israel!!

Is your reply to the several arguments I raised that: "BBC is full of anti-Israel bias?"

I would be delighted to dig up the actual figures for FY2007 and FY2008 in US total foreign assistance, and the proportion going to Israel. However, I have to go have a snack right now (I like to eat LOL har har). It's no secret that the US has just recently signed an aid agreement for $30bn+ with Israel, which will transpire over the next 10 years. If you spend as much time reading the news as as you do trolling these forums, you would already be privy to this bit.

It's one thing to cry shenanigans when someone reports on motives or attitudes; it's another to cry shenanigans when someone reports budget figures that are rather public.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
Originally posted by: fallout man
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Let`s not forget that the BBC has long been a bastion of lies and enuendo`s and out right hatred against anything having to do with israel!!

Is your reply to the several arguments I raised that: "BBC is full of anti-Israel bias?"

I would be delighted to dig up the actual figures for FY2007 and FY2008 in US total foreign assistance, and the proportion going to Israel. However, I have to go have a snack right now (I like to eat LOL har har). It's no secret that the US has just recently signed an aid agreement for $30bn+ with Israel, which will transpire over the next 10 years. If you spend as much time reading the news as as you do trolling these forums, you would already be privy to this bit.

It's one thing to cry shenanigans when someone reports on motives or attitudes; it's another to cry shenanigans when someone reports budget figures that are rather public.

Just because the figures are correct does not change the fact that you could hardly call the BBC a bastion of accuracy in matters pertaining to Israel!!
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: fallout man
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Let`s not forget that the BBC has long been a bastion of lies and enuendo`s and out right hatred against anything having to do with israel!!

Is your reply to the several arguments I raised that: "BBC is full of anti-Israel bias?"

I would be delighted to dig up the actual figures for FY2007 and FY2008 in US total foreign assistance, and the proportion going to Israel. However, I have to go have a snack right now (I like to eat LOL har har). It's no secret that the US has just recently signed an aid agreement for $30bn+ with Israel, which will transpire over the next 10 years. If you spend as much time reading the news as as you do trolling these forums, you would already be privy to this bit.

It's one thing to cry shenanigans when someone reports on motives or attitudes; it's another to cry shenanigans when someone reports budget figures that are rather public.

Just because the figures are correct does not change the fact that you could hardly call the BBC a bastion of accuracy in matters pertaining to Israel!!

No it doesn't.

My proof? Its this article itself.

The article very carefully allows those who oppose it to make their statements and opinions very clear without ignoring it. It clearly states it has received criticism. They clearly got the input of opposing organizations - the article cited the opinions of Abraham Foxman , Benny Morris, Robert Lieberman, Walter Russel Mead.

If anything - its an excellent article because it expresses the opinions of both sides and what they think, allows for their arguments, and even counter arguments. They even went out of their way to get an opinion from a person who straddles the middle position.

Perhaps your own compass needs to be re calibrated...
 

fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
1,787
0
0
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Just because the figures are correct does not change the fact that you could hardly call the BBC a bastion of accuracy in matters pertaining to Israel!!

Where do you procure your tin foil hat from? I would very much enjoy the inside-info on the procurement sources, since I dislike conspiracy airwaves getting into my pro-Israel thinking modulations. The validity of BBC's news sources involves less than 1/3 of the arguments which I've brought up.

In essence, you're not debunking my stipulations that:

1. Israel gets a disproportionate share of foreign aid, military and otherwise.
2. Israel is an economic and military power unrivaled in the Middle East.
3. Israel sucks as an ally, since they only kiss us when it's appropriate.

In the the 50's-60's, we courted Israel as the obedient mail-order bride from an impoverished family.

She turned out to be a back-stabbing, violent Jersey Hag with a trust-fund.

If you blame the BBC bias for the above statements, you are completely deluded. Please, feel free to offer a counter-point. I love this kind of shit.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Ask yourself how a massive breakdown in the middle east would affect the day to day life of Americans. Than see why the US needs to support Israel.

Not only that, I am sure the US holds Israel on a leach saying "No, you can't do that" before doing anything. (See the Syria strike, Israel had to ask Washington permission). So even though the Arabs hate the US, it is probally only the US that stands between the Arab nations and death.

You all seem to look at the capitalistic side of the picture (which money goes where, why, what are we getting in return financially?) when not all things follow a direct idealism. The world is not a capitalist machine, but is a mixture of many ideologies, to think you can take international politics and put into a neat and properly labeled box is dangerous at worst and naive at best.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
I don't get your first point. What are you trying to say?

Arabs don't blindly hate the US. They dislike our lopsided policies that are clearly influenced by a pro Israel lobby. They dislike our support for their dictators. Huge difference my friend.

Where was just the financial consideration taken in? I fail to see how we have some supposed moral obligation to Israel, yet we don't have any towards the Arab peoples - rather we talk about EVERYTHING we can do for Israel, but nothing we do towards encouragement of real Arab democracy. If we have to be idealistic - then we should apply it evenly towards all peoples (as Americans believe in liberty for all) rather than lopsidedly
 

firewall

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2001
2,099
0
0
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Mohammed realized early on in his worthless life that the children of Israel needed to be eliminated as a political force in the world, in order for Islam to reign supreme.

We should embrace an idea to remove the checks, and thus the balance. It would serve us well....

Well you know if a tribe of people - whether they be Jews, blacks, whites, other Arabs, or even penguins try to conspire with those who kill you....you aren't supposed to walk in with flowers.
Anyways don't derail this thread - and I hope that others can probably ignore the rest of these comments because I know where it is going to go - and it isn't the subject at hand.

That said you totally ignored the point of this thread - one which is VERY valid. And the [as always very balanced ] BBC articles discusses what both "Sides" think.

And living in America its undeniable that this is such a "senstive" issue because you get declared an ani semite immediately! I even remember an instance where Dark Thinker - a Lebanese IIRC -was mad at Israel during the bombing of Lebanon and one person actually said "I think you honestly might be anti semitic". HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.
If Canada bombed the US no SH|T I'd be pissed at Canada, but that doesn't mean I have a natural hatred for them.

I'm glad this book got published, and I hope that as time moves on we can more critical about Israel in the USA. Because in the US, it is about OUR democracy - and just like many scream that we should not be beholden to Oil Interests in the Middle East, we also should not be beholden to Israeli interests.

:thumbsup:

QFT.
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
3,572
0
0
Originally posted by: RichardE
Ask yourself how a massive breakdown in the middle east would affect the day to day life of Americans. Than see why the US needs to support Israel.

Not only that, I am sure the US holds Israel on a leach saying "No, you can't do that" before doing anything. (See the Syria strike, Israel had to ask Washington permission). So even though the Arabs hate the US, it is probally only the US that stands between the Arab nations and death.

You all seem to look at the capitalistic side of the picture (which money goes where, why, what are we getting in return financially?) when not all things follow a direct idealism. The world is not a capitalist machine, but is a mixture of many ideologies, to think you can take international politics and put into a neat and properly labeled box is dangerous at worst and naive at best.

Ummmmm........What does Israel provide that we need so badly? Please do not say intelligence because that is just laughable at best.

Also what sort of breakdown are you talking about exactly? We'd be in larger trouble if the House of Saudi went belly up then if Israel went belly up. As for the Syria strike....Israel didn't ask anyone they just went out and did it out of their own accord and then informed DC later on. The only issue was that the White House was caught off guard by such a blatant act of aggression. Syria was not in violation of any UN accords or the Non-Proliferation Act.

P.S. The first post in response to this thread was nothing more then out right knee jerk attempt to derail this thread. Let's keep it on track.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
I'm sure RichardE is being devious when he says the US has Israel on a chain when he knows damn well the Israeli will (rightly so) put their interests above any other nation, including their patron, the United States.

It's a well-documented fact that America was pro-Arab until after socialist Western Europe pulled their support after Israel turned from being a plucky democracy to an occupying power. America provided support and the rest is history.

And Israel is certainly no normal democracy considering its raison d'etre is to be homeland for Jews. The former takes a backseat to the latter when you consider all her actions relating to everything she does. Israeli democracy is really Jewish democracy with token respect for her minorities to give her legitimacy as a normal democracy. But this fools no one and changes nothing regarding her primary goal of being the Jews' last refuge. Understandable, but just as with the legal limbo over the occupied territories, she refuses to be honest about her true intentions and continues to call herself a real democracy. Last time I checked, Russia was also a democracy.
 

event8horizon

Senior member
Nov 15, 2007
674
0
0
my topic on the connection the israeli's had to 9-11 that is "classified" got locked.....go figure. im off today and was hoping to get some good feedback. oh well.
 
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