I know all I need to know from your posts. As I said, you are an informed fool, with a misguided hate. You need to read up on some history before sprouting anymore of your lies.
Originally posted by: Aimster
There are plenty of Jews who do not feel a Jewish state should exist.
Thousands of them live in the U.S.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/protests/index.cfm
I can post many pictures of thousands of them who live in Israel.
Difference of opinion means you want your own people to die...? LOL. OK.
Originally posted by: Aimster
There are plenty of Jews who do not feel a Jewish state should exist.
Thousands of them live in the U.S.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/protests/index.cfm
I can post many pictures of thousands of them who live in Israel.
Difference of opinion means you want your own people to die...? LOL. OK.
Gandhi on the Palestine conflict - 1938
"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr.
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: Aimster
There are plenty of Jews who do not feel a Jewish state should exist.
Thousands of them live in the U.S.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/protests/index.cfm
I can post many pictures of thousands of them who live in Israel.
Difference of opinion means you want your own people to die...? LOL. OK.
Im not Jewish, Im tired of the whine "ooo poor me we are being oppressed" attitude the muslims and arabs in the ME have, and the one you help fuel. They were the agressors and lost.
People here need to get a lot more background on the situation before they start spouting off.
Just forget entirely that Palestians have as much or more ancestral claim to the land as the Israeli's do.
Originally posted by: fragged
Because if they found the temple, it would once and for all settle the question of who has claim to the land. Wouldn't we all like to know the answer?
Originally posted by: RichardE
Why should they get it back? they were attacked and won. They are justified in the land they got.
Originally posted by: RichardE
You mean the PLO which was formed in 1963, that begain its terrorist attacks and codemnation of Israel that was a catalyst to the 6 day war? The war where the terrirory was lost? Yes it was the Palestinians through the Arab League that begain this war.
Lets not also forget, after the PLO started attacking, through the funding of the Arab league, Syria begain shelling Israels farms, unprovoked. What did Israel do? They protested through the UN, a peacefull way to protest this. Yet the bombings continues. Finally after that got no where, Israel launched a retaliatory attack.
Syria and Egypt begain ammasing its troops near the border and for the next 5 days, all the Arab league did was promise the destruction of Israel as it massed its forces.
Let us not forget the Egyptian blockade..which in itself was an act of war. Or Nassers daily tauntins towards Israel asking it to fight. Or how about Naser publicly announcing that the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syrian and Lebanon and the PLO were ready to destroy Israel.
Still through all this..all this..Israels only response was a plea to the UN and shooting Syrians planes down that were bombing Israels farms.
Than..and Than..Iraq joined the Arab league there, vowing to help wipe Israel off the map.
So with almost a half a million troups at its border, thousands of tanks and hundred of planes, Israel defended itself.
This is what you don't get Aimster, this is what you fail to comprehend. The arab nations brought this on themselves, they more or less begged Israel to attack them. they formed and funded the current terrorist organization. They were the agressors and they lost. What they need to do is learn tolerance, and stop with the "wipe Israel off the map" line. Deal with your own cultural problems and stop looking for someone else to blame, and maybe than muslims in the ME will get the respect and acceptance they want. Until than, all they are are whinners who do not understand when they have beaten.
Originally posted by: RichardE
You mean the PLO which was formed in 1963, that begain its terrorist attacks and codemnation of Israel that was a catalyst to the 6 day war? The war where the terrirory was lost? Yes it was the Palestinians through the Arab League that begain this war.
Lets not also forget, after the PLO started attacking, through the funding of the Arab league, Syria begain shelling Israels farms, unprovoked. What did Israel do? They protested through the UN, a peacefull way to protest this. Yet the bombings continues. Finally after that got no where, Israel launched a retaliatory attack.
Syria and Egypt begain ammasing its troops near the border and for the next 5 days, all the Arab league did was promise the destruction of Israel as it massed its forces.
Let us not forget the Egyptian blockade..which in itself was an act of war. Or Nassers daily tauntins towards Israel asking it to fight. Or how about Naser publicly announcing that the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syrian and Lebanon and the PLO were ready to destroy Israel.
Still through all this..all this..Israels only response was a plea to the UN and shooting Syrians planes down that were bombing Israels farms.
Than..and Than..Iraq joined the Arab league there, vowing to help wipe Israel off the map.
So with almost a half a million troups at its border, thousands of tanks and hundred of planes, Israel defended itself.
This is what you don't get Aimster, this is what you fail to comprehend. The arab nations brought this on themselves, they more or less begged Israel to attack them. they formed and funded the current terrorist organization. They were the agressors and they lost. What they need to do is learn tolerance, and stop with the "wipe Israel off the map" line. Deal with your own cultural problems and stop looking for someone else to blame, and maybe than muslims in the ME will get the respect and acceptance they want. Until than, all they are are whinners who do not understand when they have beaten.
The key part there is that most of the Jews were raised and other countries and taking land from people who had been there for many generations.
Originally posted by: sheik124
RichardE, its interesting how you LOVE to shove around the fact that Israel seeked UN help when the Arab countries threatened it instead of reacting violently initially. How many UN resolutions is Israel actively violating? Is the UN they complained to not the same UN which stated Jerusalem was to remain an INTERNATIONAL city, property of neither the Israelis or the Arabs, and a Holy Land for all three Abrahimic religions? Alright then, shove it. Israel doesn't give a rat's assabout the UN, or any of the General Assembly Resolutions either. Whenever action towards Israel is about to be taken in the Security Council, they know they have nothing to worry about, big daddy US is there to bail them out with a "No" vote.
The fact of the matter is, although Israelis are "happy" with the Arabs living INSIDE Israel (red identification card, citizen of Israel), the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza are NOT as lucky (green ID, issued by the Palestinians, used to be orange and issued by Israel). Its a situation only comparable to apartheid, Palestinians have their own border crossings, they have to deal with checkpoints every 10 miles, and then of course there's the issue of zero political rights. If Israel wants to occupy the West Bank/Gaza, then they can damn well go ahead, the Arabs lost it in '67; but if they're going to occupy the West Bank/Gaza, AND take away all their political and human rights, there's a problem. The Palestinians don't have self government, and they aren't governed by the Israelis either, its a f*cked up mixture of both. Either you're a part of Israel or you are a soveirgn nation, otherwise its apartheid.
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: sheik124
RichardE, its interesting how you LOVE to shove around the fact that Israel seeked UN help when the Arab countries threatened it instead of reacting violently initially. How many UN resolutions is Israel actively violating? Is the UN they complained to not the same UN which stated Jerusalem was to remain an INTERNATIONAL city, property of neither the Israelis or the Arabs, and a Holy Land for all three Abrahimic religions? Alright then, shove it. Israel doesn't give a rat's assabout the UN, or any of the General Assembly Resolutions either. Whenever action towards Israel is about to be taken in the Security Council, they know they have nothing to worry about, big daddy US is there to bail them out with a "No" vote.
The fact of the matter is, although Israelis are "happy" with the Arabs living INSIDE Israel (red identification card, citizen of Israel), the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza are NOT as lucky (green ID, issued by the Palestinians, used to be orange and issued by Israel). Its a situation only comparable to apartheid, Palestinians have their own border crossings, they have to deal with checkpoints every 10 miles, and then of course there's the issue of zero political rights. If Israel wants to occupy the West Bank/Gaza, then they can damn well go ahead, the Arabs lost it in '67; but if they're going to occupy the West Bank/Gaza, AND take away all their political and human rights, there's a problem. The Palestinians don't have self government, and they aren't governed by the Israelis either, its a f*cked up mixture of both. Either you're a part of Israel or you are a soveirgn nation, otherwise its apartheid.
un resolutions have become politically motivated shams pushed by the oil states and those that must appease them to slap israel around. its political convenient theater for their people, and has no real justification. the disproportionate nature and lack of equivalent response to worse situations shows a heavily antisemitic bias. the un has become a joke on this issue. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf13.html
and frankly the palestinians don't have any rights or can even claim rights while continueing their chosen path of terror. israel is not obligated to just sit back and just let the suicide bombers in because that would respect their rights to free movement. sorry, the palestinians have not shown themselves capable of nonviolent coexistence. the measures brought down upon them are by their own hand. their poisoning the mind of their youth decade after decade to create their own hitler youth garrantees their rights will be limited. and don't even talk about apartheid, this is to defend against those that want you dead in war, not racial separation. israel has palestinian citizens that vote after so don't even pretend its comparable. you want to be outraged? how about the hundreds of millions of muslim women oppressed under that religion. thats sexual apartheid, much under not badges but whole burkas or coverings. wheres the outrage. hundreds of millions of women are not worth the equivalent of a few million palestinian men. thats what it comes down to.
Do you see Muslim women running around like harlots?
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
oh that is bullsh*t. they are compelled to wear it for the most part. dissent is not tolerated, and group pressure prevents any freedom. there is no sexual apartheid? i'm sorry, you've just discredited yourself with such definitive denials.
Do you see Muslim women running around like harlots?
i see, you think western women are harlots. aka whores? shows the bigoted and backwards mindset you come from. and it shows the backwards barberous nature of the culture that creates such a mindset where women need to be hidden away else their true nature as whores will be revealed. that is the oppressive atmosphere that forces compliance with such barberous dress codes. come back when men have to also wear the headscarf or burka. then u can talk of some kind of fairness in such a religion. until then u grasp at straws to explain the evil, the bigotry enshrined as religion. makes one wonder what u think about gays.
oh thats funny, arab countries ignore israel from day one. not for any good reason, they backed genocide and indoctrination of their people with antisemitism. they had their famous kartoum resolution where they decalred there would be no peace for israel, no negotiations with israel and no recognition of israel, and to their own people they preached of irradication, extermination of israel. thats the mindset they started with. and don't even compare israels government which has never been an existential threat to arab state governments in the area to one of hamas, founded on a destruction of a peoples. the arab states around the area never shed their allegiance and sympathies for the nazi's and their ideals. its why they cannot see the election of hamas for what it really is. http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/
and frankly the cartoon crisis has shown the world exactly how irrational the area is. it is an area with no credibility on any issue regarding rights/sensitivities/oppression/bigotry or whatever. it is the land of hipocrisy and bigotry.
you don't have to innovate in islam, its bad enough the way it is already. http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html
Originally posted by: sheik124
Poll votes for anyone that cares:
Israel's actions are 25% justified/acceptable
Hamas is a terrorist organization that must be given a chance to govern
- I'd go as far as saying Hamas's actions are only 25% justifiable too, but tough sh!t Israel, you gave the Palestinians the right to have elections, and Hamas won, deal with it. Just as the Arabs brought the taking of their land on themselves by fighting the war, Israel brought dealing with Hamas on themselves by allowing elections, they can't play the 2 year-old "I don't wanna" card here.
Israel should give back some more land (not 100%)
- Jerusalem belongs in the hands of the UN, or more realistically a coalition between Israelis and Palestinians. Both parties really need to learn to f*cking deal with each other, because neither is going anywhere anytime soon.
Originally posted by: sheik124
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
oh that is bullsh*t. they are compelled to wear it for the most part. dissent is not tolerated, and group pressure prevents any freedom. there is no sexual apartheid? i'm sorry, you've just discredited yourself with such definitive denials.
Do you see Muslim women running around like harlots?
i see, you think western women are harlots. aka whores? shows the bigoted and backwards mindset you come from. and it shows the backwards barberous nature of the culture that creates such a mindset where women need to be hidden away else their true nature as whores will be revealed. that is the oppressive atmosphere that forces compliance with such barberous dress codes. come back when men have to also wear the headscarf or burka. then u can talk of some kind of fairness in such a religion. until then u grasp at straws to explain the evil, the bigotry enshrined as religion. makes one wonder what u think about gays.
oh thats funny, arab countries ignore israel from day one. not for any good reason, they backed genocide and indoctrination of their people with antisemitism. they had their famous kartoum resolution where they decalred there would be no peace for israel, no negotiations with israel and no recognition of israel, and to their own people they preached of irradication, extermination of israel. thats the mindset they started with. and don't even compare israels government which has never been an existential threat to arab state governments in the area to one of hamas, founded on a destruction of a peoples. the arab states around the area never shed their allegiance and sympathies for the nazi's and their ideals. its why they cannot see the election of hamas for what it really is. http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/
and frankly the cartoon crisis has shown the world exactly how irrational the area is. it is an area with no credibility on any issue regarding rights/sensitivities/oppression/bigotry or whatever. it is the land of hipocrisy and bigotry.
you don't have to innovate in islam, its bad enough the way it is already. http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html
Did I say Western women were harlots? No I didn't. I did say you don't see any Muslim women acting like whores. The Hijab is supposed to be a guard against evil doing (Zinah [adultery] in this case). I don't have a negative image of Western women, but thank you for baselessly assuming so. We're beyond human's "true nature". We live in the 21st fvcking century. If we were cavemen living in 100,000 BC I wouldn't argue about humans in their "true nature", unless you're a nudist. But you really need to learn to refute what I'm actually saying about Israel, which you haven't done asides from discrediting the UN. Men have a "dress code" in Islam if you want to call it that; they are required to cover themselves from knee to navel, and neither Muslim women or men are supposed to act provacitively [sp?]. Excuse me for not wanting to be a part of a society that revolves 100% about sex and how many different ways to sell it you can find. And I'm dead certain you'll find people who aren't Muslim that hold the same viewpoint about today's media run Western society as I do. What do I think about gays? I'll be straight up with you, I don't. They're free to go do whatever the hell they want, as long as they aren't doing it in my face, or getting it on my television set. I wonder what irrelevant topic you're going to shoot out at me next.
Its amazing how far out of context the Quranic verses "quoted" (you'd be lying if you called it that) are taken in that last link. Get over your hate before it kills you, this is an "Israel - Palestine" thread. If you want to call Muslims womanizers, go ahead and do it, in a different thread. I'm not about to sit here and explain why every single one of the Quranic verses quoted in that "skeptics" link is taken so far out of context that its compleely obliterated and ignored the purpose of the Aya [Verse], but I'll show you enough examples to prove that that link is blasphemous and misleading; hell, if you want, ask me on Friday when I don't have any schoolwork, and I will sit down and shoot down every single claim that page is making, on the PHONE if you'd like. I can grab a Bible and take but 2 verses out of context and turn Christians into barbaric soldiers (and I do have said verses ready at hand if you'd like to see them) but I'm beyond that, I don't need to bash another religion to justify Palestine's actions (which is what you seem to be doing to justify what Israel does, you haven't given me any proof otherwise). I am in an "Israel - Palestine" thread, and will act as such. However, I'm not about to sit back and let you take a sh!t all over my religion and holy book, or allow you to mislead, pretty much everyone here, who isn't as lucky to have a Quran (AS IT WAS WRITTEN, not this delightfully "annotated" version your link obviously seems to cite from, because I don't see any of that in the book I have sitting in my lap right now) at their access, or understand Arabic for that matter.
It's OK to have sex with your wives on the night of the fast. 2:187
Here's the whole verse buddy, and wives wasn't italicized in the Quran last time I checked
It is made lawful for you to go unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and you are raiment for them. So hold intercourse with them and seek that which Allah hath ordained for you and eat and drink until the white thread becomes distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn (till sunrise, Arabic can get verbose). Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall and touch them not, but be at your devotions in the Mosque. These are the limits imposed by Allah so approach them not. Thus Allah sends his revelation to mankind that they may ward off evil. 2:187
If you didn't get it from reading that, that verse actually has NOTHING to do with women in specific, not only does it describe their equality in a relationship by stating the same it does for them as it does men, but the point of it in the first place is to forbid sex while FASTING, not make it permitted to only your wives during a fast, sex is reserved for marriage in Islam to begin with.
Menstruation is a sickness. Don't have sex with menstruating women. 2:222
The FULL verse.
And they will ask you (Oh Mohammed) about menstruation. Say it is an ailment to women and do not go unto them until they are clean. When they are clean then go unto them as Allah has permitted you. Allah loves those who are repentant and those who are clean.
Makes sense to me.
Have sex with your women whenever and as often as you like. 2:223
The FULL verse.
Your women are a tilth for you to cultivate so go to your tilth as you will, and do good deeds for your own sake. Fear Allah and know that one day you shall return to him, and give good tidings onto the believers (Oh Muhammad)
This Aya warns Muslim men not to abuse their women and remain fearful and mindful of God, not turn them into their own personal sex bunnies.
A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282
Bravo, I'm not about to type this whole verse up (its over a page long). This is a verse dealing with FINANCES (in Arabic, this is actually referred to Ayatul Dayn, or the Verse of Debt, by scholars and people alike) and WITNESSES FOR COURT. It states that in the absense of a male witness, two female witnesses should be the replacement (two male witnesses are required) so that if one of the two errs one would remind her.
Now, 0roo0roo, do you want to return to discussing the topic at hand, "Israel - Palestine", or do you want to keep hating on Islam and getting your ass verbally whipped as a result?
Not once did I state Western women were whores, don't put words in my mouth; I have nothing to take back.Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
you know very well what you implied with western women being harlots, and you cannot take it back.
Am I representing Muslim societies and government around the world? No, I'm not. Do I agree with what most "Muslim" governments do? No, I don't. I'm defending my religion and defending my scripture because I think you're defaming it, you can change anything around by taking statements out of context, want an example? Watch any Late Night show, half the humorous things on them are simply interviews cut short at just the right time, isn't it wonderful how well context works? I'm not going to keep arguing with you about Islam, go start a "Muslims suck" thread and continue your bashing there.and looking around the muslim world it is damned clear muslim society condones the oppression of women. you can pretend the interpretations are wrong all you want but the implimentation of the scripture in the muslim world argues very clearly against you. once again you can be an apologist all you want, but the truth is just staring you in the face.
When did I become an apologist? I'm not apologizing for anything, I'm pointing out how misled you are. Every group and religion has its extremists, those who interpret the religion wrong and act upon it in the wrong way. If you want to continue hating on Muslims and Islam, based on what a small group of extremists do (there are over 1.2 billion Muslims on this planet, you see less than 1% of them acting this way). Go read up on Islamic history. I dare you. Not once will you find an instance of the Prophet Muhammad discriminating women, and you won't find a single piece of evidence to back up your claims of "sexual apartheid".its always funny how the apologists that try to explain away the evils of the scripture just make their case worse when trying to do so. any imperfection in a so called perfect text invalidates the entire thing. just remember that when you grasp at your straws. damning yourself, its rather convenient.
You are the one who isn't dealing in reality. You decided to just ignore the fact that the link you base your claims of sexual apartheid on has no truth to it. You're arguing based on hate, and personal views. I'm getting a kick out of shooting down every single claim you make with solid evidence from the Quran or Sunnah, this is like a good chess game to me. Don't talk to me about damning myself and blah blah. I'm done talking about Islam, you aren't making any points in your argument anymore, I have nothing left to refute. You've proven yourself to be not only extremely uninformed on the subject you're arguing so passionately about, but you also mindlessly follow whatever looks like it'll help you in your argument. None of the sources you cited have any weight. A site that is skeptical of Islam and quotes our holy book out of context. Nice. A small group of extremists, you're outdoing yourself. Don't believe me? I'll mail you a Quran in English, free of charge.and of course the religion and culture is relevant. the islamic world isn't dealing in reality, with their indoctrination, dogmas, reliance on blatant falsehoods like the protocols of the elders of zion/conspiracy theories galore. they cannot make rational decisions based on such a corrupt foundation of thought.
Originally posted by: DrCrap
Israel stands in the front linen as a solid barrier between western civilization and muslim arabs.
For all of you who think arabs are so great, I truly whish you will have to spend the rest of your lives sorounded by arabs, then you will get to experience some of the sh1t we get from arabs around here.
Muslim arabs (which are vast majority of the palestinians), are fanatic, dangerous, lack brains, and primitive. They understand nothing but force, if you try to talk nicely/peacefully with them, they don't see you as a friend, but they see you as weak, and they try to kill you.
There is no reasoning with such people.
If they say jews are the smartest people on earth (on average), then the Palestinians (and infact most arabs) are the dumbest ones. It is very difficult for a smart person to handle someone who's much much dumber than him, since no matter how hard he'll try, he wouldn't find a way to reason with him.
Usage of power is inevitable.