***Israel Planning Tactical Nuclear Attack***

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imported_dna

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2006
1,755
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Israel has always been the defender? What a load of horseshit. They initiated hostilities in 1947, 1956, 1967 (pre-emptive war, remember?), then again when they invaded Lebanon in 1982, again in 2006... Oh, yeh, and there was the attack on the Iraqi Osirak reactor in 1981. Probably a couple I left out... It's amazing what people will believe when they want to, so very desperately.

Heh, let me -- in the words of Ayaba -- eviscerate your argument:
  1. 1947: Huh? They initiated hostilities against Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Yemen?
  2. 1956: With hit and run attacks from the Egyptian side of the broders, I would say they were more than justified to take action. Of course, you left out France and Britain from the conflict out of convenience.
  3. 1967: I suppose amassing of troops, and ordering UN forces to leave isn't enough for you.
  4. 1973: Conveniently omitted by you; I guess you couldn't figure out a way to spin it.
  5. 1982: Remember who got kicked out of Jordan? That's right! Arafat and his PLO buddies were spreading the love in Lebanon, as well as making cross border deliveries.
  6. 2006: Like palehorse74 said, a bunch of you just have some very high standards to what constitutes as an act of war.

So, were we supposed to take your word? Or were you intending to provide "linkage" at some point?
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
"Are you too lazy to type why the tank has a better advantage in the city than U.S tanks?
You obviously claim you know why so post. \'

Aimster, i answered this question TWICE for you already
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
"Are you too lazy to type why the tank has a better advantage in the city than U.S tanks?
You obviously claim you know why so post. \'

Aimster, i answered this question TWICE for you already

I wasnt talking to you.

You posted about how fast they move, etc.
Explain to me how any of that makes a difference when it comes to a bomb planted on the road?
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
Actually I never said a thing about speed. So maybe after the third time you will get it:


-smaller size means better ability to maneuver in tight streets.
-top-secret alloy armor to better withstand anti-tank missile attacks.
-Rear exit to allow easier troop deployment.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
Actually I never said a thing about speed. So maybe after the third time you will get it:


-smaller size means better ability to maneuver in tight streets.
-top-secret alloy armor to better withstand anti-tank missile attacks.
-Rear exit to allow easier troop deployment.

You do know Merkava tanks were lost during the Israel-Hezbollah conflict, right?

All those reasons are based on your own opinion. They do not give a significant advantage over the U.S tanks.

Any tank in the middle of a city armed with a heavy resistance is going to be owned. One tank might survive 5 minutes longer ..... but in the end it will be destroyed.

There is a reason Israel did not enter the big cities and instead surrounded them.

Israel blammed Russia for supplying Syria with RPG-29 (advanced versions). They then blammed Syria for giving those weapons to Hezbollah. Those weapons penetrated Israel's tanks and it gave a symbolic victory to Hezbollah because those tanks were supposed to be unstoppable against such weapons.

Now imagine hundreds of fighters armed with those weapons in skyrises, houses, etc. The tanks will be easy targets.
 

fornax

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
6,866
0
76
Originally posted by: KurskKnyaz
Actually I never said a thing about speed. So maybe after the third time you will get it:
-smaller size means better ability to maneuver in tight streets.
-top-secret alloy armor to better withstand anti-tank missile attacks.
-Rear exit to allow easier troop deployment.

Top-secret alloy armor? I thought it was top-secret alien technology. Or was it employing a team of psychics?

Let's face it, the Merkava was totally owned in the last conflict by 30-year old Russian technology. Noone was able to provide a shred of proof that Hezbollah used newest and latest RPG. Now there are rumors in the Israeli press that there will not be new orders for the Merkava. Basically, the whole thing looked like the perfect advertisement for Russian anti-tank technology.

That doesn't mean Merkava is a bad tank -- any tank is helpless against well-aimed RPG by a trained fighter. Only the insane will enter with tanks in a town -- look what happened to the Russians in Grozny during the first Chechen war. Maneuvering in tight streets? If the city is unpopulated -- maybe. Otherwise they won't last long regardless of how small and maneuvarable they are.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Aimster
so..... when you and your buddies are pinned from gunfire coming from an apartment bulding do you

A) call for an airstrike and kill everyone in there
B) retreat back and try another day

& those buildings were not hit as a result of rocket launches. Many sites in Beiruit were hit ... there were no rocket launchers there

By the way I would call for A .. cause I am a selfish individual who values my life more than others when I am being shot at.
every single situation is different, but you might be surprised by the number of channels such a decision must go through before actions are taken. That is where JAG comes in with their role as advisers. Commanders often turn to their legal experts to assist them in such decisions.

I have first-hand experience in situations that took hours to sort out for this very reason. Yes, of course the Joes such as myself want to level the place and end the fight, but quite often we were asked to come up with alternative solutions to the problem that placed soldiers at more risk than necessary simply to prevent the death of innocent civilians.

I have taken courses in the US Army that required thorough knowledge and understanding of the Laws of Warfare. When JAG is unavailable, commanders on the ground will turn to "experts," such as myself, for advice. It is up to us to help them weigh the options and decide how much force is necessary to eliminate threats originating from sensitive targets.

Another example occurs during mission planning. One of the most important pieces of information for the ground-pounders is a description of civilians in the area of a target. That information is used to decide the best possible course of action; one that limits the number of civilians exposed to danger. (Time of day, foot traffic, religious or historic buildings, etc).

The irony is that all of our enemies know all of this and exploit it as a weakness. They know that staging their operations next to schools or mosques will limit our response capabilities, so they use those locations against us! This is a SOP for insurgents and terrorists everywhere, including Hezbollah!

That's the reality of modern combat, and the Israeli's operate in a very similar fashion. Believing otherwise is just plain ignorant.

Once again, go study the Laws of Warfare instead of assuming that you know anything about modern combat.
AIMMMSTERRRRRR! I'm still waiting for your response to the post above. This is my third attempt to get you to respond to my answers to your questions... I'm beginning to think that you admit defeat in our debate on all of the topics mentioned in the above post... is that true?

If not, then please break it down and respond to each section appropriately.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
comment on what?

I have nothing to say to that.

You act as if you speak for the entire military or something. You want me to write an opinion on your experience?

You act as if soldiers who are being fired on are caring enough to follow that long list of rules you just mentioned which seems to take a fraking long time.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Aimster
comment on what?

I have nothing to say to that.

You act as if you speak for the entire military or something. You want me to write an opinion on your experience?

You act as if soldiers who are being fired on are caring enough to follow that long list of rules you just mentioned which seems to take a fraking long time.
I told you exactly how US and Israeli militaries operate and you dismiss it outright because it doesnt fit your pre-conceived "Homegame Edition" notions of what war is like, or what the military is like.

I'm done arguing with you Aimster... your posts are 100% emotion; and they are completely void of facts, first-hand experience, or actual knowledge of any subject.

In other words, every single one of your posts is 100% conjecture. You know nothing; and therefore contribute nothing to the debate.

you're dismissed.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: dna
Easy there, Aimster -- you've been the mouthpiece of Hezbollah for a while now.

yeah I am the defender of Hezbollah.
That's me.

Im not a fanboy of Israel like you.
Show me one post where you said one thing negative about Israel. Exactly.

Someone can make a thread titled "Israel nuked China" and you will defend Israel somehow.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: dna
Easy there, Aimster -- you've been the mouthpiece of Hezbollah for a while now.

yeah I am the defender of Hezbollah.
That's me.

Im not a fanboy of Israel like you.
Show me one post where you said one thing negative about Israel. Exactly.

Someone can make a thread titled "Israel nuked China" and you will defend Israel somehow.
The same can be said of you and Iran. "Iran nuked Israel" is probably the headline that you pray for each night before falling asleep!
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: dna
Easy there, Aimster -- you've been the mouthpiece of Hezbollah for a while now.

yeah I am the defender of Hezbollah.
That's me.

Im not a fanboy of Israel like you.
Show me one post where you said one thing negative about Israel. Exactly.

Someone can make a thread titled "Israel nuked China" and you will defend Israel somehow.
The same can be said of you and Iran. "Iran nuked Israel" is probably the headline that you pray for each night before falling asleep!

You're clueless .. but what's new?

I have been calling for Iran's nuclear sites to be bombed for the last 3 years.

Do not sit here and talk for me when u have no idea wtf u r talking about.
 

imported_dna

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2006
1,755
0
0
I wasn't aware that not saying something negative grants someone a fanboy status.

I believe I said at some point that mistakes were made during the recent conflict in Lebanon, but what you really want to hear is "theY are eViL for killing Civillians", right?

Honesly, you and Jhhnn-y boy are something: you compare the airstrikes done in Lebaonon to WW2 aerial bombardments, while he says Gaza is like the Warsaw ghetto.

As far as I'm concerned you already put your foot in your mouth (and then shot your foot) with your assertions that there was no reason for certain targerts to be bombed. Like it or not, nothing you can pull off the BBC website can rival Israel's intel.
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
"All those reasons are based on your own opinion."

How can it be my opinion that the merkava has a rear exit? Its not one of those subjective things, lol.

I know tanks were lost to IEDs in hezbullah. That doesn't make the merkava an inferior tank.

"Now imagine hundreds of fighters armed with those weapons in skyrises, houses, etc. The tanks will be easy targets."

I never heard of a merkava or any modern takg being taken out by an RPG. You need a shoulder fired missle or some anti-tank weapon.
 

imported_dna

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2006
1,755
0
0
I guess someone should let you know that the tanks sent into Lebanon weren't the latest and greatest -- at least that was one of the reasons given in regards to the losses. Also, there was the element of surprise.

Of course, an easy way to deal with fighters launching AT missles from a town would be to take out a block. Alas, I'm sure you'd find a problem with that course of action, right Aimster?
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: dna
I guess someone should let you know that the tanks sent into Lebanon weren't the latest and greatest -- at least that was one of the reasons given in regards to the losses. Also, there was the element of surprise.

Of course, an easy way to deal with fighters launching AT missles from a town would be to take out a block. Alas, I'm sure you'd find a problem with that course of action, right Aimster?

The latest merkava tank was deployed and attacked.

So why not just nuke the entire country since those fighters are going to be in every block?
Much easier. You would have no problem with that.
 

imported_dna

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2006
1,755
0
0
Do you really think there were any civilians left in those towns where Hezbollah was making a stand?

Besides, since you're an expert on the laws of war, then you know that they (civs.) were be Hezbollah's responsibility; however, we both know that Hezbollah doesn't really care about civilians, right? Or do you think otherwise?
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
uhm...

switch positions and weapons.

Hezbollah invades and has all of Israel's weapons
Israel stands ground with all of Hezbollah's weapons

yes, I think Israel would fight Hezbollah forces in the cities because that is where they are going to be. They are not going to go out in the open for their troops to die.

& yeah civilians are always all over. They dont magically disappear.
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
"Let's face it, the Merkava was totally owned in the last conflict by 30-year old Russian technology.'

Give me one shred of prof of this. They were not owned just because the Israelis had a better trained crew aside from the technology.

...and for the second time you cannot take out modern tanks with RPGs. RPG stands for Rocket Propelled grenade. You need anti tank weapons.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,501
0
0
Awesome. I hope if they decide to do it they kill few to no civilians and there is no large-scale response.
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_Merkava,,00.html

The Israelis know their tanks, and the Merkava Mk. 4 is no exception -- behold a tank bristling with weaponry and advanced digital systems, not to mention extra protection for its operators, and enough space to hold an infantry unit, to boot.

World's only MBT with a forward mounted engine
World's only MBT capable of carrying an infantry squad or performing crew/ casualty extrication under battlefield conditions
Fully integrated digital battlefield information recording and distribution system
Capable of launching LAHAT 120mm thru-tube laser guided ATGM


No country in the world is more synonymous with armored warfare than Israel. And with good reason: no country is more dependent for its very survival on the quality of its armored formations. Thus armed with the experience of almost 30 years of tank warfare, and with full knowledge of its needs, the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) has come up with a marvel of tank engineering that boasts firsts in a number of categories: the world's only Main Battle Tank (MBT) with a forward mounted engine, and the world's only MBT capable of carrying an infantry squad or performing crew/ casualty extrication under battlefield conditions, to name a few. And that's not mentioning its impressive array of weaponry, and its fully integrated battlefield information recording and distribution system. Meet the Merkava, a tank that truly belongs in the digital age.


As is often the case, the problem for Israel's "home-grown" tank program in the past has been ponying up enough cash. Through the late 1970s, Israel had to content itself with upgrading and improving the surplus American M4, M48, M60, British Centurions, and the captured Soviet T55 and T62 tanks it had in its inventory. Unfortunately, the Yom Kippur War of 1973 came as a rude awakening to the IDF. During the war, Russian-made, man-portable anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) decimated Israeli tank formations, and with their destruction came the hard truth that tanks may be replaceable, but crews are not. Logistical issues associated with supplying and servicing several dissimilar vehicle types also brought the issue to a head. What was needed was an "in house" tank that would be well-suited for crew protection and the type of urban, built-up combat environments Israel found itself in. Enter the Merkava.

The driving factor in the Merkava's development was crew survival, followed by firepower, and then mobility. The engine for example, is mounted in front, where its mass serves as additional armor. While a penetrating hit to the front might disable the tank, the crew will survive (it takes several weeks to fabricate a new engine; it takes several years to fabricate a new tank crew). All main gun ammunition is stored in the hull, below the turret ring (where it is protected not only by the thicker hull armor, but by earth as well, when the tank is "dug in" in a hull down defensive position). Not only does the Merkava carry more tank ammunition than any modern MBT (the Merkava MK1 carried 85 rounds of 105mm ammunition), but the ammunition is also stored in removable modules. This, coupled with the fact that the Merkava comes with a rear access hatch in the hull means that ammunition modules could be removed to create space to enable a Merkava to safely recover a tank crew stranded in a disabled vehicle. Alternatively, Infantry can be carried in the Merkava's expanded crew compartment, thus providing the tank with an added measure of protection in urban or built-up areas.

The turret of the Merkava is also uniquely sloped; where most tanks slope the turret armor vertically (i.e., the M1, Challenger, and new Leopard II series) the Merkava's armor slopes horizontally. This not only provides a smaller forward aspect, but also presents a greater realized depth or armor to frontal direct fire threats. This configuration gives the tank greater armor protection through a smaller amount of actual armor.


As for the guns themselves, suffice it to say that the Merkava is one of the most heavily armed tanks in history. In addition to the main gun, Merkavas are also armed with a 7.62mm COAX machine gun, the loader and commander each have a 7.62mm machine gun, and a .50 caliber MG is often mounted directly to the gun mantlet for use by the gunner as a light vehicle weapon. Finally, the Merkava is also one of the only MBTs to mount a 60mm infantry mortar, capable of firing both HE and illumination rounds.

Carrying on the Tradition

The Merkava MK4 is the latest installment in the Merkava tradition. Entering service in 2004, the Merkava MK4 continues the tradition of meeting the IDF's specific requirement for crew survivability. In terms of armored protection, the Merkava MK4 offers one of the most sophisticated, non-DU (depleted uranium) based packages available. In addition to the more traditional steel and composite armor of the turret and hull, the MK4 features an extensive suite of configurable bolt on armor packages for the turret and hull. These packages increase the armor protection of the hull top as well as the turret top and sides, and can also be specifically tailored to meet specific anti tank threats. Since these packages are bolted on, they are easier to repair or replace than more conventional integrated armor. The MK4 is also equipped with an Amcoram LWS-2 laser warning system which detects incoming laser designation or ranging beams, with a threat warning display installed at the commander's station. Lastly, the Merkava's role as a battlefield taxi continues, as the MK4 is capable of internally carrying an 8-man infantry squad, a battalion-level battle staff, or 3 litter patients.

Now armed with a 2nd Generation high pressure 120mm smoothbore gun (first introduced on the MK3) the MK4 carries 48 rounds of ammunition in individually armored compartments, while the loader feeds the main gun from a semi-automatic 10 round armored magazine located in the turret. This magazine, like the ammunition storage compartments on the Leopard II and the M1 tanks, is blast-isolated from the crew to protect them in the event of an ammunition explosion.

While the MK4 is designed to be used with IDF manufactured ammunition, it is capable of firing any current American or German made 120mm munition. In addition, the MK4 is also capable of firing the 120mm thru-tube LAHAT duplex warhead ATGM. The LAHAT missile has an 8,000-meter range and can be guided by a laser designator. The gun tube itself is equipped with a thermal shroud to reduce the effects of thermal bending, while the turret itself is driven by an advanced all-electric drive. The fire control system is every bit as modern as the rest of the tank. Both gunner and commander are equipped with dual axis stabilized sights with both daylight and thermal channels. The turret is equipped with a laser rangefinder and the target tracking software allows for the engagement of rapidly moving targets such as helicopters and aircraft. Both the gunner and tank commander can scan independently for targets, with the TC having the same battle override and target handoff capabilities as are found on the M1A2 and the Leopard II. The 60mm mortar, now configured for internal operation, is capable of launching illumination rounds or HE projectiles a maximum of 2,700 meters downrange. The Merkava MK4 retains the 7.62mm COAX mounted MG, as well as the commander's MG (the loader's hatch and MG were eliminated) and carries 10,000 rounds of 7.62mm ammunition.

The MK4 is also one of the most digitally integrated tanks in the world. Every crew station is equipped with a color flat panel display which provides crew specific system status information. In addition, the driver is provided with 360o situational awareness through the use of the "Tank Sight System." The TSS comprises 4 day/night video camera units, mounted in hardened armor shells, which the driver can use to observe conditions all around the tank. This system allows the driver to maneuver rapidly and efficiently in any direction without guidance from the TC. The tank is also equipped with a digital Battlefield Management System (BMS) that allows for the rapid exchange of information between units and individual vehicles. In addition, the BMS also incorporated a digital video recorder that allows for the "real time" capture of battlefield imagery, which can then be disseminated up and down the chain of command.

Pushing the MK4 is a brand new high output V-12 power plant. Developed by General Dynamics and the German company MTU, the GD833 is a liquid cooled, direct injection, turbocharged V-12 diesel engine generating 1,500 hp. Coupled to this is a 5 speed hydrostatic gearbox while the vehicle is stabilized by externally mounted, single position rotary shock absorbers. The MK4 also features a positive pressure chemical and biological warfare overpressure system that not only sterilizes incoming air, but also provides climate control (in the form of air conditioning and heating.)


The Merkava series tanks are some of the most effective, purpose built tanks ever produced. Everything about the Merkava is designed to enhance not only crew safety, but crew recoverability as well. The layout of the tank's systems, from the forward mounted engine to the hull stowed ammunition, is specifically intended to dovetail with how the Israelis expect to defend themselves (properly dug in, a 105mm Merkava MK2 with 85 rounds of ammunition would be all but indestructible, and sustain itself for days without having to withdraw in order to replenish its ammunition supply). The Merkavas have often been criticized for their relative lack of speed, compared with the M1 series or the Leopard IIs. Yet for Israel, speed is secondary to survival; the Israelis are concerned with defending their country, not racing across Eastern Europe.

Finally, as conflicts transition into low intensity, "bush war" affairs, where most combat takes place in urbanized or built-up areas, the Merkava may prove to be the most appropriate armored vehicle ever made. Heavily armed and armored, with a digitally integrated communications system, AND the ability to carry a full 8 man squad of infantry, the Merkava MK4 is quite possibly the best city tank ever built.

Hope that clears things up for you aimster
 
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