Israel warns: free soldier or PM dies

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ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
Originally posted by: PandaBear
Yeah right, if they laid down their arms today, they will forever lives in refuge camps, their kids will forever lives in refuge camps, and be treated like 2nd class citizen. It is like blaming the Black slaves for starting the civil wars in the US. Do you seriously think that a peace march in Israel will really get them their own state or their previous home back? If so, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell.
Get them their own state? They were given Gaza as their own sovereign land. They had millions and millions of dollars in foreign aid. They can live how they please on it. They can build towns, villages, cities and factories. They chose instead to continually lob rockets at Israel, forcing Israel to come back in and respond to the daily threat to it's citizens.
To some extend I agree with you on this issue. But on the other hand, a supressed population will always have more extremists than the better off one. If you don't believe me, look at Indonesia (the natives vs. the wealthy Chinese), or the US (black vs. white). It is always the population who got the shorter end of the stick that are more extreme, simply because they are usually less educated and have more struggles in life.
That may be true, but the reason they live the way they do is only because they continually attack Israel and they are dedicated to Israel's destruction. No, not all of them, but since they hide among a civillian population Israel has to be wary of everyone. It's their fault they live the way they do. Yes, it's a circular argument.
They certainly did a better job than you personally did. They interviewed a few Isralies who have relatives getting blown up by suicide bomber, and asked them why they still go on their daily routine (because they want to show no fear to the terrorists), and they do so because they want to stand for the rest of the country that they will not back down against the terrorists. If this is not covering the story on both sides in a good job, what is? blaming everything on the Palestinians?
I do not claim to be a reporter or a news agency. News agencies have a curious way of reporting things that either never happened, or completely misprepresenting something that did, and I've seen it happen firsthand. Watch the Pallywood video for a small taste.
Then why aren't we (the US military) not doing it? Because we care about bringing freedom to others and we are keeping peace in foreign soil. They, the IDF, cares about bringing the soldier back at all cost. While they may not try to kill civilians, they certainly try to do as much colateral damage to the Palestinians as possible.
If that were true Gaza would be rubble. It's just not true.
The blanket statement that all elected Hamas politicians have hands that drip innocent blood is foolish. It is like saying all US soldiers rape Iraqi women and kill their family just because a few did.
It's not US official policy to rape Iraqi's, is it? Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Bit of a difference there.
You know what this is? This is "it is only democracy if you elect people that I like, that will listen to me, that will accept Israel, that will not fight for a separate state of Palestine, that will not ask for their former homes back, that will not ask for an apartment per family, that will not ask for education for all people, ......" In other word, all Palestinians are terrorists if they are not puppets of the Isralie's government.
Oh please. They elected a gang of unrepentant murderers, and who continue to murder. Try electing a murderer as governer of your state. Stop painting a picture of Hamas as these peaceloving politicians who are concerned about education. BS. If they were so concerned about the Palestinian people they would immediately cease all terror operations. It causes more harm to their people than anything else they could possibly do.
Then they should have the international force come into the country to take care of them, if not because IDF is biased, it will at least make both side feel more convinced and the situation more justified.
Israel is quite capable of defending themselves, they do not need UN soldiers to come do it for them. The Palestinian's are concerned that the IDF is biased? Stop attacking Israel and they won't have that problem.
I am not saying that Palestinian civilians are more important (both sides civilians are important), but I am saying that unlike the typical 1st world military, IDF do not put priority in non-citizen civilians life in combats, and that is shown in the children's casulty difference.
Completely untrue. The reason the children's casulties are higher is because the terrorists hide among them and they actually encourage children to fight. And if you really believed civillians were important on both sides you'd save your idignation for the Palestinians who try to kill civillians.
So, I guess you want Israel to get all the land and either kick all the Palestinians out to every other country in the world, or force them to convert to Judism and become Jewish. Let's try that in the US and see if that works. Let's kick all the black people back to Africa and force all the mexican and chinese to change their last name to smith, white, or johnson.
Ummm, no, I have no idea how you get that. I want the Palestinians to stop attacking Israeli civillians thereby causing the Israelis to back down. Stop shooting rockets, stop blowing up cafes.
So they can do what? genocide? kick them out of the country? or put them all in jail?
No, so they don't have to continually look over their shoulders wondering about someone's wrong impression.
 

PandaBear

Golden Member
Aug 23, 2000
1,375
1
81
Originally posted by: Topplayer
Originally posted by: dexvx
Originally posted by: daniel49
there is no government in the world that has been dealing with arab terrorists as long as Isreal.

They simply understand what it takes to deal with these people.
Something the United States and Europe have no stomach for.
You can see how well our ideas of appeasement have worked In Palestine.

LoL?

And how successful has Isreal been? Despite an extreme hardline approach, they have failed to stop the underlying problem of Terrorism. While it may solve the issue in the short term, it does nothing in the long-term.

look it up isreal has never lost a war.......

Nazi never lost a war until the last one, WWII Japan never lost a war until the last one, and the same goes for many Iron fist dictatorship. Never lost a war doesn't means the country is found on a stable, just ground. If it is not because of the BILLIONS of dollar we (US) gave them, their huge defense budget, and the 70% max tax rate they collected, they wouldn't win every war.

Do you really think their policy is self sustainable?
 

PandaBear

Golden Member
Aug 23, 2000
1,375
1
81
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Get them their own state? They were given Gaza as their own sovereign land. They had millions and millions of dollars in foreign aid. They can live how they please on it. They can build towns, villages, cities and factories. They chose instead to continually lob rockets at Israel, forcing Israel to come back in and respond to the daily threat to it's citizens.
A big portion of it got lob by corruption, but can they live how they please? do you really think it is that much money that they got? Millions dollars of aids? for millions of people? A blown up power plant cost more than millions already.

Originally posted by: ThePresenceThat may be true, but the reason they live the way they do is only because they continually attack Israel and they are dedicated to Israel's destruction. No, not all of them, but since they hide among a civillian population Israel has to be wary of everyone. It's their fault they live the way they do. Yes, it's a circular argument.
The same can be said of what Israel got is because they are still occupying the land the grap in the 6 day war. It is a spiral of revenge and struggle. I fault the hard liners on both sides for the problems today.

Originally posted by: ThePresence It's not US official policy to rape Iraqi's, is it? Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Bit of a difference there.
Hamas is a terrorist organization, so are every single "political" organization in Palestine. The reason Hamas got elected is because they are the biggest CHARITY group that provide social services to the local population. Group wedding, child care, health care, schools, etc. They are also the less corrupted terrorist group compare to the others (i.e. Fatah). All you got were terrorists group in an election.
Now, just think. Why in the world would Israel allow the living condition in West Bank and Gaza to deteriorate so bad that EVERY SINGLE POLITICAL GROUP in the region has a terrorist arm, including the charity one? Yeah, they really care about the civilians on the other side.

Originally posted by: ThePresence Oh please. They elected a gang of unrepentant murderers, and who continue to murder. Try electing a murderer as governer of your state. Stop painting a picture of Hamas as these peaceloving politicians who are concerned about education. BS. If they were so concerned about the Palestinian people they would immediately cease all terror operations. It causes more harm to their people than anything else they could possibly do.
See above, they have no choice, because the whole system is messed up and every political group has a terrorist arm. Hamas win because they are the least corrupted and provide the most social service.

Originally posted by: ThePresence Israel is quite capable of defending themselves, they do not need UN soldiers to come do it for them. The Palestinian's are concerned that the IDF is biased? Stop attacking Israel and they won't have that problem.
No, the do not want the UN to get involved because UN want them to return the land they grabbed in the 6 day war, and now they are complaining that the International community did not denounce terrorism in West Bank and Gaza. Hmm....

Originally posted by: ThePresence Ummm, no, I have no idea how you get that. I want the Palestinians to stop attacking Israeli civillians thereby causing the Israelis to back down. Stop shooting rockets, stop blowing up cafes.
That's what I wanted too. Terrorist attacks are not justified, and it never will be. It is foolish for the Palestinians to think that enough casualty can change the majority's mind. And it is also equally foolish that supressing the Palestinian uprising by tanks and missles will be a long term solution too. IMO the whole situation is so messed up, that there is no solution until both sides are tired of it. It will take a few generation of people to grow up and all the old people dying off for that to happen.

 

Screech

Golden Member
Oct 20, 2004
1,202
6
81
Originally posted by: PandaBear
....
Originally posted by: ThePresenceThat may be true, but the reason they live the way they do is only because they continually attack Israel and they are dedicated to Israel's destruction. No, not all of them, but since they hide among a civillian population Israel has to be wary of everyone. It's their fault they live the way they do. Yes, it's a circular argument.
The same can be said of what Israel got is because they are still occupying the land the grap in the 6 day war. ....

a map of israel after the 6 day war:
click me
Ask yourself: does israel still look like that?
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
Originally posted by: PandaBear A big portion of it got lob by corruption, but can they live how they please? do you really think it is that much money that they got? Millions dollars of aids? for millions of people? A blown up power plant cost more than millions already.
Let's keep on topic. The point I was making was in response to your point that if they laid down their arms they would be forced to live in refugee camps. They have Gaza as their own with hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars to do there as they please, but they are in the process of screwing that up. The point was not about the money.
The same can be said of what Israel got is because they are still occupying the land the grap in the 6 day war. It is a spiral of revenge and struggle. I fault the hard liners on both sides for the problems today.
6 day-war was not a land grab. The land they took was necessary for Israel's defense as you see today when they left Gaza, rockets start raining down on Israeli towns and cities.
Hamas is a terrorist organization, so are every single "political" organization in Palestine. The reason Hamas got elected is because they are the biggest CHARITY group that provide social services to the local population. Group wedding, child care, health care, schools, etc. They are also the less corrupted terrorist group compare to the others (i.e. Fatah). All you got were terrorists group in an election.
Now, just think. Why in the world would Israel allow the living condition in West Bank and Gaza to deteriorate so bad that EVERY SINGLE POLITICAL GROUP in the region has a terrorist arm, including the charity one? Yeah, they really care about the civilians on the other side.
I'm sorry, I don't buy that for a second. Sure Fatah is corrupt, but Hamas was not elected for their social services. It's kinda hard to miss the fact that they are a radical terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Every last Palestinian knows that. Electing them is a show of support for what they do. Hamas is not a charity organization, don't be ridiciculous. If you seriously believe that is the reason they were elected you don't understand the mindset of the region.
See above, they have no choice, because the whole system is messed up and every political group has a terrorist arm. Hamas win because they are the least corrupted and provide the most social service.
Completely untrue. Hamas won because they have the most success attacking Israel. Everything else is windowdressing.
No, the do not want the UN to get involved because UN want them to return the land they grabbed in the 6 day war, and now they are complaining that the International community did not denounce terrorism in West Bank and Gaza. Hmm....
Fact is that the UN is blatantly anti-Israel. Israel does not want them involved in it's affairs. And they're right. I wouldn't want someone from some country on the other side of the world telling me what to do either. Especially when I know they hate me.
That's what I wanted too. Terrorist attacks are not justified, and it never will be. It is foolish for the Palestinians to think that enough casualty can change the majority's mind. And it is also equally foolish that supressing the Palestinian uprising by tanks and missles will be a long term solution too. IMO the whole situation is so messed up, that there is no solution until both sides are tired of it. It will take a few generation of people to grow up and all the old people dying off for that to happen.
Okay, so what would you have Israel do? Sit on their hands and let rockets rain down on Sderot and Ashkelon? They pulled out of Gaza as a (very painful) gesture for peace. They gave the Palestinians their own land. All that got them was more rockets coming from that area. No country in the world would stand for that.
 

PandaBear

Golden Member
Aug 23, 2000
1,375
1
81
Originally posted by: ThePresence Okay, so what would you have Israel do? Sit on their hands and let rockets rain down on Sderot and Ashkelon? They pulled out of Gaza as a (very painful) gesture for peace. They gave the Palestinians their own land. All that got them was more rockets coming from that area. No country in the world would stand for that.

This, I do not know. They certainly need to do something, if not to really solve the problem at least do it to make their own people feel better. They have to send troops in to Gaza, and they have to run raids to get those terrorists off the streets. What I am having problem with, is that they use this as an excuse to do what they please. WTF does bombing a power plant have to do with a hostage? If they have problem with terrorists meeting somewhere, put a few tanks there and guard it. Send in enough troops to have curfew. Arresting people is ok if they will release it; but hey, what I am to say, my country have a whole camp full of them right now.

In a nut shell, they take advantage of the situation and milk it as much as they can.
 

NanoStuff

Banned
Mar 23, 2006
2,981
1
0
Originally posted by: dexvx
Originally posted by: daniel49
there is no government in the world that has been dealing with arab terrorists as long as Isreal.

They simply understand what it takes to deal with these people.
Something the United States and Europe have no stomach for.
You can see how well our ideas of appeasement have worked In Palestine.

LoL?

And how successful has Isreal been? Despite an extreme hardline approach, they have failed to stop the underlying problem of Terrorism. While it may solve the issue in the short term, it does nothing in the long-term.

That's because every time Israel tries to get the problem solved America tells it to back the ****** off. Not necessarily a bad thing as an Arab nation occupied by Israel would be a bloody mess, but the point is they could have easily occupied far more land, starting with Sinai. But the USA insisted there be no repercussion for Egypt for to their attempted invasions; all of them, and likewise for the north-east.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
I wonder if anyone thinks about the parallel between Israel and oh.. say the Palestinian. To be an Israeli it is sorta kinda imperitive to be of the Jewish faith. After all the Israeli are mostly expatriate from many nations who came to that little bit of land because that is the 'chosen' homeland of the Jew or at least that is what they say God said and of course the UN. They defend their right to believe as they do and use offensive and defensive means to maintain that right. The Palestinian also has a God and belief that controls their life (for the most part). The Palestinian God and his chosen have also propounded means and methods that insure eternal life.... to both that is all that is important. Heaven and being with God for eternity. So what is the big deal? Well... I suppose that the Palestinian God don't much care for the Israeli one or visa versa nor the means to secure that belief. That and possibly that the area is sorta home to all sorts of historic dwellers. Much like the American Indian lived according to his belief till 1605 or so when Freedom from oppressive mandates forced the start of another migration and Manifest Destiny.... Now this United States is One nation Under God.. or was... So too must that area of Palestine/Israel become.. the Indians are on Reservations for their own good... I expect so too should the Palastinian be.... They don't belong amongst the civilized and righteous Israeli...
Ok... there really is no historic Palestine... and therefore no historic Palestinian but they like the American Indian are people and should be accorded all the rights anyone else living in that area get.. and they should be defended by all freedom loving peoples every where...... don't cha think?
 

PandaBear

Golden Member
Aug 23, 2000
1,375
1
81
Lunar,

The GOD is the same GOD between Judiasm, Chrisitian, and Muslim. The problem is that everyone believes that "we" are the chosen one and "we" alone deserve this piece of land. When it is the religious issue and God's promise that matter, it is not easy for either side to back down.

It is not possible to wipe either Israel or Palestine completely off the map, so they have to share the place. However, when you have so much killing on both sides and the whole wars between all nations in the past, it is easier said than done.

I am a believer that if people have a decent life and opportunity to move forward, they can gradually forgives their enemy's wrong doing. Just look at Japan vs China/Korea, and India vs Pakistan, and US vs Soviet. Things get better over time.
 

Meuge

Banned
Nov 27, 2005
2,963
0
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
I wonder if anyone thinks about the parallel between Israel and oh.. say the Palestinian. To be an Israeli it is sorta kinda imperitive to be of the Jewish faith. After all the Israeli are mostly expatriate from many nations who came to that little bit of land because that is the 'chosen' homeland of the Jew or at least that is what they say God said and of course the UN. They defend their right to believe as they do and use offensive and defensive means to maintain that right. The Palestinian also has a God and belief that controls their life (for the most part). The Palestinian God and his chosen have also propounded means and methods that insure eternal life.... to both that is all that is important. Heaven and being with God for eternity. So what is the big deal? Well... I suppose that the Palestinian God don't much care for the Israeli one or visa versa nor the means to secure that belief. That and possibly that the area is sorta home to all sorts of historic dwellers. Much like the American Indian lived according to his belief till 1605 or so when Freedom from oppressive mandates forced the start of another migration and Manifest Destiny.... Now this United States is One nation Under God.. or was... So too must that area of Palestine/Israel become.. the Indians are on Reservations for their own good... I expect so too should the Palastinian be.... They don't belong amongst the civilized and righteous Israeli...
Ok... there really is no historic Palestine... and therefore no historic Palestinian but they like the American Indian are people and should be accorded all the rights anyone else living in that area get.. and they should be defended by all freedom loving peoples every where...... don't cha think?
It's a very nice parallel you drew there, with the American indians. It's interesting that you bring that up, when you consider how WE treated american indians... how we pretty much wiped them out... BEFORE starting to defend them. If Israel behaved towards Palestinians the way we behaved towards americn indians, there'd be about 10'000 of them left right now, and Israel could absorb Gaza and the West Bank with no problems.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
29,488
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From a reply in that link
Zahir Muhsein, executive committee member of the "Palestinian Liberation Organisation" included in an interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw on 31st March, 1977 puts everything into context;-

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism."

The PLO's VERY OWN representative correctly recognising that there never has been a Palestinian people, nation, language, culture, or religion.... and the real agenda behind the 'creation' of a 'Palestinian'
wiki link about the interview with the Dutch NP This is the premise for the conflict, that I subscribe to, i.e. some/all? of the Arab countries use the "Palestinians" as a proxy for executing their agenda against the Israelis. It has been so shrewdly done, that they no longer appear as the antagonists, and the "plight of the Palestinians" has garnered sympathy and humanitarian concerns all over the globe. Bloody brilliant, the way they have prosecuted their agenda.

The Palestinian civilians are the one who are unjustly made to suffer, due to their so called leadership, being willing pawns. I don't believe this conflict will ever end, so long as the manipulation continues, and I see no way for the Palestinian people to take control of their own destiny either.

 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
Someone explain to me the logic behind attacking Israel at this point with daily rockets and the attack on the army base. Israel withdrew from Gaza, gave them soverign Palestinian land for the first time in history. There's a government in Israel now with a (foolish) plan to withdraw from most of the West Bank. If it's independance and land that they want, why would they attack Israel now? It can only hurt their cause? Unless their cause is really the destruction of Israel, in that case I understand.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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Originally posted by: ThePresence
Someone explain to me the logic behind attacking Israel at this point with daily rockets and the attack on the army base. Israel withdrew from Gaza, gave them soverign Palestinian land for the first time in history. There's a government in Israel now with a (foolish) plan to withdraw from most of the West Bank. If it's independance and land that they want, why would they attack Israel now? It can only hurt their cause? Unless their cause is really the destruction of Israel, in that case I understand.


Poke the bear.
Every time the bear swipes back, you get sympathy.

Generate enough sympathy and people
  • Forget that you were the one that poked the bear
  • Ignore the reason that you poked the bear

Hamas can not run a government, they are inept. Nor will they let anyone else try; it will ruin their power/prestige.

Cut off their Palestinian supporters' noses to save their own face.
 

DAPUNISHER

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Aug 22, 2001
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Originally posted by: ThePresence
Unless their cause is really the destruction of Israel, in that case I understand.
I can see no other viable reason for failing to reach a compromise by now, that allows for a far more peaceful coexistence. Particularly given the fact some M.E. Goverment officials have been quoted as stating almost exactly that. The approach seems to be all or nothing, and unfortunately for the Palestinians, the powers controlling their fates, deem them as readily expendable. Meanwhile, they get to promote even more anti-semitic and/or Israel hate mongering worldwide.

 

PandaBear

Golden Member
Aug 23, 2000
1,375
1
81
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Unless their cause is really the destruction of Israel, in that case I understand.
I can see no other viable reason for failing to reach a compromise by now, that allows for a far more peaceful coexistence. Particularly given the fact some M.E. Goverment officials have been quoted as stating almost exactly that. The approach seems to be all or nothing, and unfortunately for the Palestinians, the powers controlling their fates, deem them as readily expendable. Meanwhile, they get to promote even more anti-semitic and/or Israel hate mongering worldwide.

I agree with you. Hamas wanted to destroy Israel and there is no reason they would stop after they were elected. Heck, they even cross the bound and ask the security and police in Palestinian area to join and fight IDF. Good thing most of those forces aren't loyal to Hamas.

Israeli government is smart not to reoccupy Gaza again permanently, or else they will never get the confidence of the moderate Palestinians that they are sincere about giving it back. That will just increase the support of Hamas.

I still don't like the idea that IDF can do whatever they please to blow up non-terrorist target and harrass the residents. Hopefully they do a minimum amount of damages (which I doubt, when will be the next time they get the excuses?).
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Wow, is there a thread in which dahunan does NOT advocate the assination of the president? Every thread I go into here in P&N it seems he's going on about how he wishes somebody would kill Bush and Cheney.
 

skisteven1

Senior member
Jul 15, 2003
537
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0
I'd just like anyone who's reading PandaBear's comments to make sure and get a more unbiased view of the whole situation before forming an opinion.

That is all. Thank you
 

Waylay00

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2004
1,793
0
71
I agree 100% with ThePresence. He is saying what I would be saying in this conversation.
 
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