Israel: We Are At War

[SteveGrabowski]

^^^ Not to mention Dresden and all the Napalm that got dumped on villages in Nam.

Or the two nukes we dropped on Japanese cities just to scare Stalin

 

[AtenRa]

Why is it a terrorist attack here but it's just war when we firebombed the shit out of Tokyo and incinerated 100,000+ women and children?

First of all, did Palestinians officially declared war on Israel and then attacked them ?? no , even Japan didn't declare war first when attacked pearl harbor, US and the rest of the world was at war with Japan when the bombs fell in Japanize cities.
Secondly, after two world wars, after the Korea War, after the Vietnam war etc I had hopped humanity learned from their mistakes, evolved beyond barbarism but noooo, here comes Hamas to remind us that some people still live in the middle ages.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

First of all, did Palestinians officially declared war on Israel and then attacked them ?? no , even Japan didn't declare war first when attacked pearl harbor, US and the rest of the world was at war with Japan when the bombs fell in Japanize cities.
Secondly, after two world wars, after the Korea War, after the Vietnam war etc I had hopped humanity learned from their mistakes, evolved beyond barbarism but noooo, here comes Hamas to remind us that some people still live in the middle ages.

But it's not middle ages when Israel steals their land, loots their wealth, puts them in ghettos, makes them second class citizens, and routinely kills them?

 

[AtenRa]

But it's not middle ages when Israel steals their land, loots their wealth, puts them in ghettos, makes them second class citizens, and routinely kills them?

Turkey attacked without warning, killed both soldiers and civilians and occupied and looted 37% of Cyprus back in 1974.

Have you seen any Greek Cypriot attacking Turkish Cypriot civilians or doing any terrorist attacks ?? No, they try to solve the problem peacefully , civilized for the past 50 years.

What Hamas and the Palestinians have managed with all this killing the last 70 years ???

 

[APU_Fusion]

But it's not middle ages when Israel steals their land, loots their wealth, puts them in ghettos, makes them second class citizens, and routinely kills them?

That does not excuse killing women and children. There will be blood flowing now. Israel will not be merciful. Are you justifying the murder of women and children? That crossed a line to which Hamas will not come back. Both sides are in the wrong but come on.

 

[soulcougher73]

I don’t care about either side. Is nuking from orbit the whole area an option? Same blood bath that will ensue for decades to come, but done much quicker.

I’m being facetious, but sometimes you can just be so over something you just don’t care anymore.

 

[Jaskalas]

Secondly, after two world wars, after the Korea War, after the Vietnam war etc I had hopped humanity learned from their mistakes, evolved beyond barbarism but noooo, here comes Hamas to remind us that some people still live in the middle ages.

Humans are humans, we are all literally the same.

The sole difference are our institutions, the indoctrination of propaganda in our heads. Our banners, our flags, and our symbols. Those are our differences, not our core behavior. In the jungle, there is not ONE difference among us. The word evil is used to define human behavior. History is stuffed full of examples. Everywhere you look genocide and slavery. Rape and massacres. That is to be human. You fell for a fallacy, a delusion of ego and comfort, if you thought any better of us.

Our institutions alone are what hold us back from such barbarism, and attempt to instill the faint notion of human rights.

I speak of this because in our hubris we like to pretend we are better than that. We are better than "them". Than those other people, those savages. So we let our guard down and become the very thing we pretended to hate. Ourselves. This happens when we do not respect nor fear our very nature. When we ignore and thus do not guard against it. Do not pay attention and actively teach each other to do better. We have to put in the work to maintain and improve our institutions. If we just assume we are better, then we WILL fail. Because the truth will always be, that we are not better.

That caveman from 100,000 years ago? That is you, that is me. That is all of us. Always has been.
Our society does not respect that.

 

[amenx]

Palestinian Foreign Ministry has gone bat shit insane. They want wide spread international condemnation of Israel's nerve to fight back against coordinated widespread terror attacks, or it's "a double standard."

They're acting like Israel just decided to bomb people for no reason. Sorry Hamas, you can't ambush hundreds of civilians, murder them, kidnap them, then complain when you encounter resistance. If the killing of Palestinian civilians is a war crime, then so too is the killing of Israeli civilians. If you set out to murder civilians, you are a terrorist, period.

The Palestinian Authority (incl foreign ministry) is not Hammas and are at cross purposes with each other and have fought one another. The PA recognize Israels right to exist and is committed to the 2 state solution in the conflict. In Gaza, Hammas has wrested control from the PA and is the dominant power there. The PA is in the west bank and are considered the official representatives of the Palestinian people.

 

[rommelrommel]

I don't think Israel will be able to recover the image of military invincibility in the eyes of Palestinians and other Arabs after this.

https://x.com/McBrideLawNYC/status/1710784066344149288?s=20

https://x.com/academic_la/status/1710749010263425324?s=20

I don't view it that way... Israel has been playing relatively (vs the history) nice with Gaza for a long time. No wall, no heavy buildup of troops, little to no retaliation if rockets get fired since Iron Dome stops most. Hamas took advantage of a temporary vulnerability, not general weakness.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

That does not excuse killing women and children. There will be blood flowing now. Israel will not be merciful. Are you justifying the murder of women and children? That crossed a line to which Hamas will not come back. Both sides are in the wrong but come on.

Why is it a terrorist attack here but it's just war when we firebombed the shit out of Tokyo and incinerated 100,000+ women and children?

 

[Paratus]

If I was faced with this terror threat....
I'd level every building for one mile, furthest from the Egyptian border.
Until the hostages are returned, every week (Or day?), one more mile of Gaza is erased and turned into an uninhabited DMZ.

Well the fun thing about 2023 is we can easily get a map with aerial views of the area to see what ‘we’ would be wiping off the map.

So starting with a square mile in Gaza as far from Egypt as possible

That would be roughly this view of the top corner of the Gaza Strip along the coast in the upper right quadrant of the above map.



Looks mostly agricultural. Google Earth doesn’t have much in the way of street level pictures other than one at a campground site with the back of some kids head.

So not much in the way of buildings to wipe off the map. But as we’ve seen in Ukraine when Putin attacks UK food production and distribution it does get a strong response.

So would you still want to start off by wiping out Palestinian food production in Gaza?

 

[Brovane]

Or the two nukes we dropped on Japanese cities just to scare Stalin

The Japanese strategy was to make taking the home islands so costly for the Allies that they could get a negotiated peace including the Japanese military government remaining in charge of the Japan home islands, no occupation of Japan by Allied Forces. The use of nuclear weapons made the Japanese government and the emperor realize that this strategy wouldn't work because the US could cause devastating damage to the Japanese through the use of nuclear weapons without landings. A good book on this is called "DownFall:The end of the Imperial Japanese Empire" by Richard B Frank.

 

[AtenRa]

Humans are humans, we are all literally the same.

The sole difference are our institutions, the indoctrination of propaganda in our heads. Our banners, our flags, and our symbols. Those are our differences, not our core behavior. In the jungle, there is not ONE difference among us. The word evil is used to define human behavior. History is stuffed full of examples. Everywhere you look genocide and slavery. Rape and massacres. That is to be human. You fell for a fallacy, a delusion of ego and comfort, if you thought any better of us.

Our institutions alone are what hold us back from such barbarism, and attempt to instill the faint notion of human rights.

I speak of this because in our hubris we like to pretend we are better than that. We are better than "them". Than those other people, those savages. So we let our guard down and become the very thing we pretended to hate. Ourselves. This happens when we do not respect nor fear our very nature. When we ignore and thus do not guard against it. Do not pay attention and actively teach each other to do better. We have to put in the work to maintain and improve our institutions. If we just assume we are better, then we WILL fail. Because the truth will always be, that we are not better.

That caveman from 100,000 years ago? That is you, that is me. That is all of us. Always has been.
Our society does not respect that.

Humans are all the same yes but, there are those who are raised with principles , taught to respect human life, taught of human history and learned from the mistakes of the past. And then there are those who are raised with only one purpose in life, to hate and have a life only for a single cause, to destroy the enemy no matter if it is a soldier or civilian or a child. Fanatism is what destroys the Palestinians in Gaza not the 100.000 years old caveman's.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Humans are all the same yes but, there are those who are raised with principles , taught to respect human life, taught of human history and learned from the mistakes of the past. And then there are those who are raised with only one purpose in life, to hate and have a life only for a single cause, to destroy the enemy no matter if it is a soldier or civilian or a child. Fanatism is what destroys the Palestinians in Gaza not the 100.000 years old caveman's.

LOL the idea that nations like Israel and the US respect human life.

 

[Oric]

Turkey attacked without warning, killed both soldiers and civilians and occupied and looted 37% of Cyprus back in 1974.

Have you seen any Greek Cypriot attacking Turkish Cypriot civilians or doing any terrorist attacks ?? No, they try to solve the problem peacefully , civilized for the past 50 years.

What Hamas and the Palestinians have managed with all this killing the last 70 years ???

Turkey was a guarantor of Turkish Cypriots and Nikos Samspon made a coup in Cyprus, toppled the Cyprus Government and started killing Turkish Cypriots. The civilized part rests on both sides.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Kinda makes you wonder if they had a hand somehow ....


Russia-Ukraine War

Russia Already Exploiting Israel Attacks to Bolster War in Ukraine: ISW​

Moscow likely hopes to "drive a wedge in military support for Ukraine," the Washington-based Institute for the Study of War think tank said.

 

[dank69]

if only mean tweets

Your political opinion is worthless.

That does not excuse killing women and children. There will be blood flowing now. Israel will not be merciful. Are you justifying the murder of women and children? That crossed a line to which Hamas will not come back. Both sides are in the wrong but come on.

Russians are killing women and children in Ukraine, but Ukraine does not target civilians in Russia. International support would evaporate if they did.

Any support for Hamas, if any existed outside of the middle east, has evaporated. As it should. However, if Israel starts killing civilians, support for Israel should evaporate. The truth is, Israel has been killing civilians in Palestine all along. This is why Israel does not get any sympathy from me and many others.

 

[dank69]

Kinda makes you wonder if they had a hand somehow ....


Russia-Ukraine War

Russia Already Exploiting Israel Attacks to Bolster War in Ukraine: ISW​

Moscow likely hopes to "drive a wedge in military support for Ukraine," the Washington-based Institute for the Study of War think tank said.

Yeah, good luck with that Russia.

 

[dank69]

I'm glad Hamas got a whole bunch of Israeli military. Fuck that whole government and their jackboots.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Anybody getting a Mad Max vibe from the flying assault machine in post 233?

 

[AtenRa]

Turkey was a guarantor of Turkish Cypriots and Nikos Samspon made a coup in Cyprus, toppled the Cyprus Government and started killing Turkish Cypriots. The civilized part rests on both sides.

Turkey was a guarantor for the Republic of Cyprus not only for the Turkish Cypriots and the guarantor status doesn't give them the right to invade, kill civilians and occupy parts of the country they are guarantors.

Treaty of Guarantee (1960) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Treaty of Guarantee is a treaty between Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, and the United Kingdom that was promulgated in 1960.

Article I bans Cyprus from participating in any political union or economic union with any other state. Article II requires the other parties to guarantee the independence, territorial integrity, and security of Cyprus. Article IV reserves the right of the guarantor powers to take action to re-establish the current state of affairs in Cyprus, a provision that was used as justification for the Turkish invasion of 1974. The treaty also allowed the United Kingdom to retain sovereignty over two military bases.[1]

Article IV entitled these three guarantor powers to multilateral action among them or, as a last resort if no concerted action seemed possible, each guarantor to unilateral actions confined to restoring its status according to the treaty as a democratic, bicommunal, single, sovereign independent state:

Article IV

In the event of a breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom undertake to consult together with respect to the representations or measures necessary to ensure observance of those provisions.
In so far as common or concerted action may not prove possible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs created by the present Treaty.[2]

— Article IV

 

[Oric]

You are hijacking the Israeli - Palestinian thread AtenRa, I know Greek and Armenian Diaspora think they are powerful enough to create a public opinion on international arena but those days are changing, both countries have dwindling populations (both are getting old and getting less populous) as Turkey is creating a more numerous and well educated diaspora of her own in US and Europe.

Coming back to the Cyprus issue, some Greek Cypriots thought it was a good idea to kill the Turks and annex Cyprus with Greece and that plan back fired on them and we have a peaceful Cyprus for 50 years. So stop crying, you got what you deserved, you should not have tried to get what was not yours.

 

[AtenRa]

You are hijacking the Israeli - Palestinian thread AtenRa, I know Greek and Armenian Diaspora think they are powerful enough to create a public opinion on international arena but those days are changing, both countries have dwindling populations (both are getting old and getting less populous) as Turkey is creating a more numerous and well educated diaspora of her own in US and Europe.

Coming back to the Cyprus issue, some Greek Cypriots thought it was a good idea to kill the Turks and annex Cyprus with Greece and that plan back fired on them and we have a peaceful Cyprus for 50 years. So stop crying, you got what you deserved, you should not have tried to get what was not yours.

Hijacking the thread ??? others talked about Russia, Ukraine, the 9/11 and more ...... but suddenly you are concerned about hijacking the topic when getting the facts straight about what was the guarantors job in Cyprus.

Also to point out that Cyprus already belonged to Cypriots both Greek and Turkish before Turkey invaded and dichotomized the Republic of Cyprus taking what it was not theirs.

So spare me the propaganda and learn the real history, it was the job of the three guarantors to keep the Republic of Cyprus a single, sovereign independent state and not to invade, kill civilians and occupy one third of the island.

 

[kage69]

The Palestinian Authority (incl foreign ministry) is not Hammas and are at cross purposes with each other and have fought one another. The PA recognize Israels right to exist and is committed to the 2 state solution in the conflict. In Gaza, Hammas has wrested control from the PA and is the dominant power there. The PA is in the west bank and are considered the official representatives of the Palestinian people.

I wasn't suggesting otherwise, merely echoing a response to this event that I find to be completely ridiculous. The PA authority doesn't seem to care about Israeli civilians right now, and to my knowledge has not condemned the intentional hunting and killing of Israeli citizens by Hamas. Their previously established position on Israel's right to exist is exactly why this campaign of murder should be easy to disavow and condemn.

The PA is a joke within the Palestinian community. That's why it has no power. No one is expecting them to give orders to Hamas and have them followed, but they should be able to condemn the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians currently in progress without opting instead for a history lecture. Trying to excuse or defend terrorism in progress is a pretty shitty look IMO.

Or have they condemned it, and I just haven't seen it yet?

 

[Ajay]

Hijacking the thread ??? others talked about Russia, Ukraine, the 9/11 and more ...... but suddenly you are concerned about hijacking the topic when getting the facts straight about what was the guarantors job in Cyprus.

Don’t forget Atomic bombs from 1945