Israel: We Are At War

[Zorba]

Your words, not mine. Sheesh. At least Israel is not on record as favoring the genocide of Palestinians. Hamas on the other hand are on the record in favor of genocide of Israelis and the actions of Oct. 7 took the vows to another level. On the record the IDF is not after Palestinians but after Hamas who are all for genocide. I am not excusing killing innocent Palestinians, but that is not Israel's stated goal.

So it is okay to commit genocide as long as you don't come out and say "I'm committing genocide?" The Nazis also never announced to the world that they were systematically killing Jews. The IDF is clearly going out of their way to kill civilians in far higher numbers than Hamas did on October 7th. Do you honestly think they are ever going to be able to kill the idea of Hamas as they kill whole families and bulldoze cemeteries? What's the likelihood that they will actually give all of the land back to the Palestinians?

 

[mikeymikec]

I'm fully aware it didn't start on Oct. 7th, and nowhere have I claimed otherwise.

You were talking very much like "this is all Hamas's fault" in what AFAIK was your opening point in this thread, and you did use the word "unprovoked". There's no reason for anyone to have read your comments in any other way.

Historically, both Islamism and Judaism has had claim to the area. This goes back millennia.

If you're American and a bunch of native Americans said that the land your house is on belongs to them so you should fuck off or they'll kill you, I'm pretty sure you'd have an issue with that. Yes, once upon a time that land was theirs. A LONG TIME AGO. Many generations of Palestinians have lived in Palestine, so there really isn't a historic entitlement argument for Israelis to claim the land by, least of all the Law of Return that Israel has been peddling. Should people from Italy start claiming land all around the world, or the British or any other group of people whose ancesters once lived elsewhere? I'm half Irish so I'm entitled to someone's land in Ireland? It's completely ludicrous.

The best and only real solution is the two state solution. And to succeed it muse be imbued with a strong sense of non-sectarianism.

Absolutely. There's no turfing the Israelis out of Palestine at this point (for much the same reason that Israel is not entitled to Palestinian land), but Israel is going to have to come to a mutually agreeable compromise, because they are by far the most invasive element in this equation.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

If you're American and a bunch of native Americans said that the land your house is on belongs to them so you should fuck off or they'll kill you, I'm pretty sure you'd have an issue with that. Yes, once upon a time that land was theirs. A LONG TIME AGO. Many generations of Palestinians have lived in Palestine, so there really isn't a historic entitlement argument for Israelis to claim their land by, least of all the Law of Return that Israel has been peddling. Should people from Italy start claiming land all around the world, or the British or any other group of people whose ancesters once lived elsewhere? I'm half Irish so I'm entitled to someone's land in Ireland? It's completely ludicrous.

-Just to be that guy, can't you technically say the same thing about Israel now taking Palestinian land?

"Yeah sure it was yours, but you couldn't keep it so it's ours now."

Time is on Israel's side. To your point, the primary difference between the American treatment of Native Americans and the Israeli treatment of Palestinians is time.

 

[amenx]

Pope should speak louder imo and not just confine his statements to Christian victims of Israeli barbarism. No "collateral damage" here, this is pure blood lust. Been happening a lot lately.

Pope Francis deplores Israeli killings of civilians at Gaza church​

The Patriarchate said an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) "sniper" killed the two women, whom the pope named as Nahida Khalil Anton and her daughter Samar, as they walked to a convent of nuns in the compound of the Holy Family Parish.

The Patriarchate statement said seven other people were shot and wounded as they tried to protect others.

"I continue to receive very grave and painful news from Gaza," Francis said. "Unarmed civilians are the objects of bombings and shootings. And this happened even inside the Holy Family parish complex, where there are no terrorists, but families, children, people who are sick or disabled, nuns."

Were Hamas using them as human shields? Israeli apologists make me sick. And the MSM that will cover this up.

 

[Dave_5k]

Pope should speak louder imo and not just confine his statements to Christian victims of Israeli barbarism. No "collateral damage" here, this is pure blood lust. Been happening a lot lately.

Pope Francis deplores Israeli killings of civilians at Gaza church​

The Patriarchate said an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) "sniper" killed the two women, whom the pope named as Nahida Khalil Anton and her daughter Samar, as they walked to a convent of nuns in the compound of the Holy Family Parish.

The Patriarchate statement said seven other people were shot and wounded as they tried to protect others.

"I continue to receive very grave and painful news from Gaza," Francis said. "Unarmed civilians are the objects of bombings and shootings. And this happened even inside the Holy Family parish complex, where there are no terrorists, but families, children, people who are sick or disabled, nuns."

Were Hamas using them as human shields? Israeli apologists make me sick. And the MSM that will cover this up.

The IDF soldiers are just following their very explicit rules of engagement ~ anyone that is not an IDF soldier in their areas of engagement are, per IDF leadership definition, "terrorists" to be executed on sight. And their areas of engagement cover most of Gaza.

 

[amenx]

^ yes, even hostages waving white flags are terrorists.

 

[Muse]

Germaine article in The New York Times. This link should get you beyond their paywall to this story for 14 days from now, i.e. until Jan. 1, 2024. I believe you can read the comments (which are typically at least as interesting as reading the stories in the NYT) accessible by clicking the [Comments] button at the bottom of the story:

Opinion | The U.S. Must Embrace Palestinian Statehood Now

U.S. recognition of the state of Palestine would give Washington credibility with Palestinians and help make a two-state solution more likely.

www.nytimes.com

 

[mikeymikec]

-Just to be that guy, can't you technically say the same thing about Israel now taking Palestinian land?

"Yeah sure it was yours, but you couldn't keep it so it's ours now."

Time is on Israel's side. To your point, the primary difference between the American treatment of Native Americans and the Israeli treatment of Palestinians is time.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make here.

 

[HomerJS]

Your words, not mine. Sheesh. At least Israel is not on record as favoring the genocide of Palestinians. Hamas on the other hand are on the record in favor of genocide of Israelis and the actions of Oct. 7 took the vows to another level. On the record the IDF is not after Palestinians but after Hamas who are all for genocide. I am not excusing killing innocent Palestinians, but that is not Israel's stated goal.

Israeli government isn't stupid enough to outright say it but every action/lack of action by Netanyahu indicates that is what he wants.

He claims Hamas is a terrorist organization while funding them.
Funding Hamas to weaken an alternate governing body the Palestinian Authority
Waiting 8 hours to respond to the attack.
Having advanced knowledge of the attack 1 year in advance.
Netanyahu refusing to entertain a 2-state solution.

He seems to want the elimination of the Palestinians.

 

[K1052]

Support in Europe and the US for Israel's current strategy is a perishable commodity and soft spots are increasingly showing.

US has been telling them to wind down the air campaign and move into lower intensity ops but Netanyahu has basically told us to fuck off.
That's not going to be sustainable. Biden is going to start to actually squeeze soon.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1736755949036028374

 

[K1052]

Israeli government isn't stupid enough to outright say it but every action/lack of action by Netanyahu indicates that is what he wants.

He claims Hamas is a terrorist organization while funding them.
Funding Hamas to weaken an alternate governing body the Palestinian Authority
Waiting 8 hours to respond to the attack.
Having advanced knowledge of the attack 1 year in advance.
Netanyahu refusing to entertain a 2-state solution.

He seems to want the elimination of the Palestinians.

I think Netanyahu is genuinely opposed to a 2 state solution but also that almost every action he takes is really dedicated to ensuring his own political survival and little more.

Enabling the worst disaster in Israeli history that has cratered him and his party with voters likely not an actual plan. His government is distracted, malign, and incompetent all due to his single minded self interest.

 

[Ajay]

On that note, this would be a great time for folks to go back to the first few pages of this thread and re-read, with a little hindsight perspective for those of you who lacked imagination and foresight back then, what resounding applause and great fervor many had with the Israeli response to Hamas' actions.

You have a point. Some of us, like me, had kept abreast of developments in Israel. I knew that Israel treated the Palestinians badly, but didn't know the degree to which Israel became an apartheid state. It seemed reasonable to Israel to strike back after a terrorist attack. What turned out to be unreasonable was the bombing campaign that lead to the unacceptable levels of death and destruction. Cutting off the water, electricity and fuel, a typical action in war, was far too extreme and dangerous over the dubious claim that HAMAS fighters were diverting these resources. It took a little bit of time to realize just how inhumane Israel's policies and the conduct of the anti-terror campaign are.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make here.

-If you don't get my point, then I probably didn't get your point in the quoted portion.

It sounds like you're saying "Imagine Native Americans asking for their land back cause they were there first" and associating that with the existence of Israel basically saying "we deserve to be here cause we had it first".

Presumably this argument is absurd to both Americans and to anyone who hears the "Israel has a historical right to that land".

But the flip side of that argument is that Americans genocided the fuck out of Native Americans and got the keep the land free and clear, so Israel can genocide the fuck out of Palestinians and, in theory, keep the land free and clear so long as enough time passes for people to forget.

 

[mikeymikec]

-If you don't get my point, then I probably didn't get your point in the quoted portion.

It sounds like you're saying "Imagine Native Americans asking for their land back cause they were there first" and associating that with the existence of Israel basically saying "we deserve to be here cause we had it first".

Presumably this argument is absurd to both Americans and to anyone who hears the "Israel has a historical right to that land".

But the flip side of that argument is that Americans genocided the fuck out of Native Americans and got the keep the land free and clear, so Israel can genocide the fuck out of Palestinians and, in theory, keep the land free and clear so long as enough time passes for people to forget.

It's only a flipside if you think that Americans were in any way right to do that, which if one sided with Palestine for moral reasons and yet sided with American colonists' actions in that era, it would constitute some pretty inconsistent thinking.

 

[amenx]

I think Netanyahu is genuinely opposed to a 2 state solution but also that almost every action he takes is really dedicated to ensuring his own political survival and little more.

N'yahu and his Likud party have been vehemently against the 2 state solution since forever. The Oslo accords which allowed for the possibility of a 2 state solution were negotiated by the Rabin (Labor) govt in 1993 & 95 and involved curbs to settlement growth. When Likud came to power (after Rabin's assassination) they reversed that and accelerated settlement growth to ensure that the 2 state solution can never happen. Every single member of his Likud party and ultra-RW governing coalition is vehemently opposed to the 2 state solution.

The more hard-line Netanyahu appears to his ruling coalition, the greater the chances for his political survival (as he ses it). In fact he is even on record boasting of how he destroyed the Oslo accords.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

It's only a flipside if you think that Americans were in any way right to do that, which if one sided with Palestine for moral reasons and yet sided with American colonists' actions in that era, it would constitute some pretty inconsistent thinking.

-Right, wrong, the United States is the most powerful country in the world and we killed off our native population and suffered nothing for it in practical terms.

I wouldn't use the US as a point or counterpoint to much of anything really. A lot of the wrong lessons to be derived from us.

 

[KMFJD]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1736764560776867896

thanks for giving the fascists extra tank rounds joe , i'm sure she appreciated it

 

[Young Grasshopper]

I think Netanyahu is genuinely opposed to a 2 state solution but also that almost every action he takes is really dedicated to ensuring his own political survival and little more.

Enabling the worst disaster in Israeli history that has cratered him and his party with voters likely not an actual plan. His government is distracted, malign, and incompetent all due to his single minded self interest.

Israel has funded Hamas throughout its existence in order to prevent a two state solution. Israel created Hamas in order to divide the Palestinians in two as opposed to being united under one political party.

Divide and Conquer - To make a group of people disagree and fight with one another so that they will not join together against one.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1736350828179468581

 

[HomerJS]

Israel has funded Hamas throughout its existence in order to prevent a two state solution. Israel created Hamas in order to divide the Palestinians in two as opposed to being united under one political party.

Divide and Conquer - To make a group of people disagree and fight with one another so that they will not join together against one.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1736350828179468581

We have the quote? Republicans tried to blame. Biden for Oct 7 saying the release of Iranian funds a few months ago. Since then we have learned Netanyahu knew a year ago this attack was being planned and now we have HIM funding Hamas. The group he calls terrorists.

 

[Amol S.]

You have to sometimes wonder how thing would have been different today if the far past was different.
How different would the politics of the world been if the 2nd PM of Egypt never nationalized the Suez Canal?
How different the world would have been if the shah of Iran was never over thrown from his position?
How different the world would have been if Afganistan was never taken over by Soviets?

How do these relate to the current crisis you may ask? There is a high likelihood if any of the above never occured, thier either would never been a Hamas or Isreal would never have lost Gaza in the first place.

 

[Amol S.]

Things had to take a bad turn folks gas prices are now going to rise.

BP pauses all Red Sea shipments after rebel attacks

The US will lead an international operation to protect ships on the route, after several firms halt journeys.

www.bbc.com

BP stops going thru red sea until conflict is finished.
Republicans now have gained a talking point and are probably going to blame Biden for the rise in oil prices.

 

[JTsyo]

Things had to take a bad turn folks gas prices are now going to rise.

BP pauses all Red Sea shipments after rebel attacks

The US will lead an international operation to protect ships on the route, after several firms halt journeys.

www.bbc.com

BP stops going thru red sea until conflict is finished.
Republicans now have gained a talking point and are probably going to blame Biden for the rise in oil prices.

This is oil headed for the Suez Canal and Europe?

 

[HomerJS]

I have a question for all of you upset at the phrase, "from the river to the sea".

Why are you not equally upset at, "poisoning the blood of our country"?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I have a question for all of you upset at the phrase, "from the river to the sea".

Why are you not equally upset at, "poisoning the blood of our country"?

I'm personally upset at any thought, intent, or action that is rooted in the notion of one person's or group of persons' superiority over another, or the extermination of any group of peoples for any reason, much less the actions of a handful of them.

 

[HomerJS]

I'm personally upset at any thought, intent, or action that is rooted in the notion of one person's or group of persons' superiority over another, or the extermination of any group of peoples for any reason, much less the actions of a handful of them.

Right wingers are cool with the blood trope. Lindsay Graham when asked about it he said, "language doesn't matter". Meanwhile Republicans are attacking college students for their "language".