Israel: We Are At War

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Rebel_L

Senior member
Nov 9, 2009
451
63
91
Hamas != Palestine.
Likud != Israel.


Look beyond blind hate, and ask yourself who is the real enemy. You know most Israelis never wanted this war. You know most Palestinians never wanted this war. You know Likud is a minority government. You know Hamas is a unelected dictatorship.

At what point does the majority have a responsibility to stop the minority or go elsewhere if it is to be viewed as something other than complicit? At least in Israel the majority should have the ability to effectively take power away from the minority.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,999
10,163
136
You know most Israelis never wanted this war.

However, it is evident what most Israelis will tolerate: The steady bulldozing of Palestine into oblivion, and kicking Palestinian people out of their homes.

If the Israeli people engaged in many efforts to make their feelings known that they don't want this, such as mass protests (at least half a million people), a landslide election loss for the current regime, new figures in Israeli politics pushing for peace with Palestine and gaining traction, I would find that to be reasonably convincing that they're not just like a bunch of people on this thread who tolerate genocide and say things like, "sad but necessary", but with the side-benefit of free land for the taking.

Every time Hamas fires a rocket they justify Israel's actions.

So logically 1 Hamas rocket is worth 1 genocide? What kind of exchange rate are you proposing here, how many Palestinian lives is one Israeli life worth?
Would you care to re-word your opinion?
 
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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,681
5,415
136
So logically 1 Hamas rocket is worth 1 genocide? What kind of exchange rate are you proposing here, how many Palestinian lives is one Israeli life worth?
Would you care to re-word your opinion?

It doesn't matter what you think or what I think.

It matters that on the evening news they show rockets bombarding Israeli towns, and that is truth. It matters because it allows Likud to frame the narrative. It matters because most 3rd party observers see that, and all they see is two vicious parties slugging it out, and shrug. Another war in the holy land. It is just the way it always has been. The way it will always be.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,783
8,281
136
It doesn't matter what you think or what I think.

It matters that on the evening news they show rockets bombarding Israeli towns, and that is truth. It matters because it allows Likud to frame the narrative. It matters because most 3rd party observers see that, and all they see is two vicious parties slugging it out, and shrug. Another war in the holy land. It is just the way it always has been. The way it will always be.
"There is absolutely no inevitability as long as there is a willingness to contemplate what is happening." - The Medium is the Massage

There is not much "holy" when it comes to vicious warfare.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,999
10,163
136
It doesn't matter what you think or what I think.

That is a cop-out response and you know it. Either concede that one Hamas rocket does not justify genocide or defend your statement.
 
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Drach

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2022
1,099
1,740
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Not good if true. Reports of an Israeli strike in Beirut.

View attachment 91340

Excellent if true. Hopefully Bibi is next. All militants that want to send other peoples children to war should suffer the same fate.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,999
10,163
136
Israel will be responding to the genocide claims, this should be interesting (will Dershowitz represent them?)


View attachment 91359

Does Israel really need a defence in this trial? Surely they can have some random person read out their statement being that anyone who criticises Israel is an anti-semite.

Has anyone any idea what the point is in this trial? Will Netanyahu and his entire cabinet be executed for genocide if they're found guilty?

But let's be realistic: The only outcome that will be considered acceptable to the major players is an outcome that achieves absolutely nothing, then Israel can get back to their task of eradicating the Palestinian people. After that, the Palestinian genocide will be considered a taboo topic to discuss in Israel.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,630
43,776
136
Does Israel really need a defence in this trial? Surely they can have some random person read out their statement being that anyone who criticises Israel is an anti-semite.

Has anyone any idea what the point is in this trial? Will Netanyahu and his entire cabinet be executed for genocide if they're found guilty?

But let's be realistic: The only outcome that will be considered acceptable to the major players is an outcome that achieves absolutely nothing, then Israel can get back to their task of eradicating the Palestinian people. After that, the Palestinian genocide will be considered a taboo topic to discuss in Israel.
They'd be placed on a list to be arrested and jailed if found guilty i guess, just like Putin, now if countries abide by the ruling is a whole different matter (see Putin travelling abroad to a few different countries) Most will likely have to curtail their travel though i believe if found guilty but that would be the extent of it.
 

Young Grasshopper

Senior member
Nov 9, 2007
932
301
136
If the Israeli people engaged in many efforts to make their feelings known that they don't want this, such as mass protests (at least half a million people), a landslide election loss for the current regime, new figures in Israeli politics pushing for peace with Palestine and gaining traction, I would find that to be reasonably convincing that they're not just like a bunch of people on this thread who tolerate genocide and say things like, "sad but necessary", but with the side-benefit of free land for the taking.


I am supporting Palestine in this conflict, but I disagree with your post.

Did we have mass protests or cause civil unrest when we bombed the shit out of Afghanistan for 20 years? Or what about the Iraq war where estimates of up to a million were killed? BTW regarding elections, starting wars while your in office historically benefits your chances of being reelected. Just ask Bush.

The reality is if your country is doing the killing and your own personal life isn’t affected by it, no one will care. If your country is on defense, you might care but will be too afraid to do anything about it due to retaliation from the government. Ukraine is getting its ass handed in its war with Russia and most of the protests I have seen within the country, were done mostly by women with only women present.

I do think however that Netanyahu has bitten off more then he can chew, and something very bad is going to happen to him or Israel within the year. I also think that Palestine is going to come out of this conflict victorious in some way. It’s just not a good idea to piss the Muslim world(nearly 2 billion), not to mention most of the western world also supports Palestine. I also read a stat( I’ll see if I can find it) that shows 95% of the protests going on around the world in regard to this conflict support Palestine.

Personally, if I lived in Israel I would sell my house and get the fuck out of there. Their government has just pissed off too many people around the world for it to be safe going forward.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,999
10,163
136
I am supporting Palestine in this conflict, but I disagree with your post.

Did we have mass protests or cause civil unrest when we bombed the shit out of Afghanistan for 20 years? Or what about the Iraq war where estimates of up to a million were killed? BTW regarding elections, starting wars while your in office historically benefits your chances of being reelected. Just ask Bush.

In the UK, I don't remember there being protests about Afghanistan but there certainly were protests about Iraq II, and there have been worldwide protests in favour of Palestine. Furthermore, if UK citizens were aware of the UK military engaging in *genocide*, we would absolutely be out on the streets.

I also think that your thinking sounds US-centric. No war in my memory that the UK has been engaged in has boosted a PM's standing (and also my impression is that US citizens idolise their military a heck of a lot more than we do; here, war dead get some auto-respect but otherwise being in the military is just another job). Maybe the Falklands war boosted Thatcher's profile but that's before I can remember. If anything, Iraq II damaged Blair's profile because it commonly was seen as the UK acting as the US's lapdog and playing political games rather than having any just cause.
 
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Zor Prime

Golden Member
Nov 7, 1999
1,023
588
136
In the UK, I don't remember there being protests about Afghanistan but there certainly were protests about Iraq II, and there have been worldwide protests in favour of Palestine. Furthermore, if UK citizens were aware of the UK military engaging in *genocide*, we would absolutely be out on the streets.

I also think that your thinking sounds US-centric. No war in my memory that the UK has been engaged in has boosted a PM's standing (and also my impression is that US citizens idolise their military a heck of a lot more than we do; here, war dead get some auto-respect but otherwise being in the military is just another job). Maybe the Falklands war boosted Thatcher's profile but that's before I can remember. If anything, Iraq II damaged Blair's profile because it commonly was seen as the UK acting as the US's lapdog and playing political games rather than having any just cause.
Can't say the same of any other country but us Americans aren't collectively content unless we're bombing the shit out of some place, somewhere. We're the polar opposite of pacifists. We might portray from time to time we want to be isolationists but just give us a reason to bomb and invade and we're on it like white on rice. It's one of the only things Democrats and Republicans can agree on. I would like to say this isn't true but actions speak louder than words, it is what it is.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,999
10,163
136
Can't say the same of any other country but us Americans aren't collectively content unless we're bombing the shit out of some place, somewhere. We're the polar opposite of pacifists. We might portray from time to time we want to be isolationists but just give us a reason to bomb and invade and we're on it like white on rice. It's one of the only things Democrats and Republicans can agree on. I would like to say this isn't true but actions speak louder than words, it is what it is.

IMHO (and acknowledging that I'm making broad sweeping statements which I would generally regard as a shaky notion by default, but anyway):

Brits probably generally would be like that too if it wasn't for WW1 and WW2 playing out *a little too close to home for comfort*.

We're not quite "WAR! WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR?", for example our involvement in WW2 is generally considered by Brits to have been a just war to fight in.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,491
13,076
136
Well. Well. Really?

Imagine for a second that Russia had US level firepower and the US did not.
I mean look at what he is trying in Ukraine with 1/1000th of that..
Rotate that power onto different regimes around the world and extrapolate/game how they’d use that power to project into nearby geo stuff.

US influence is 1000 times that by subsidizing security(and guaranteeing safe trade routes) in exchange for allegiance - and security in this context is defensive by nature… ie NATO.
But guys. If it’s not by gun powder, this is how you win the world.

I mean I prefer western democracies and our alliances to the third reich or Russia 3.0(or wtf Putins endgame is here)

The pacifist : But why should we try and win the world?
The realist : Cause if you dont win you lose.
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,630
43,776
136
Good read on Israel / Russia relations.

I just want to add that since the dissolving of the USSR that there have been over a million immigrants from the iron curtain countries to Israel, while they are mainly secular they are very conservative, around the same time the politics of Israel has gone very hard to the right
 
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