Israel: We Are At War

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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
The NY Times sexual violence story, that Hamas committed sexual crimes on Oct 7 keeps getting worse and worse.

One of the journalists was actually not even a journalist but a film producer in Israel who worked for the Israeli intelligence. She is extremely pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian and she was one of the people behind this story. She liked a tweet about turning the Gaza strip into a slaughterhouse. Shows you the level of bias at the NY Times and the entire media.

This person, Anat Schwartz, who worked with the NY Times, also liked a tweet about the baby beheadings. Again, no evidence of this taking place.

What Israel is doing is a genocide and you have the corporate media doing what it can do to provide protection to Israel. No one is questioning this. This is a reflection of a culture and a society, really. Palestinians are just not viewed as equal to Israelis, thanks to the US politicians and media. That's why genociding them is allowed.
 
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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
It is darkly funny how he argues in favor of Russia’s genocidal invasion and then argues against Israel and when you point out the contradiction he gets all offended about how mean we are to him.
If you compare the civilian deaths, it is not comparable. You have two armies fighting. Israel vs Palestine is an army vs civilians. Russia is not cutting off water, food, medical supplies or blockading Ukraine. You Ukraine fanatics don't seem to get that. We have two different conflicts and they should be looked at differently. I know you people focus more on Ukraine because they are of European background, such as people like you most likely, but other people have been suffering for many years too. They don't even get a fraction of the attention because non-European lives don't matter to you people.

And once again, talk about Ukraine in the other thread.
 
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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
I don’t know what his deal is but if he is being honest about his views he is a deeply immoral person.
My big deal is that Western imperialism and colonialism is alive and well today. One of the prime examples is Israel, a colonial settler colony of the West. You only seem to care about Ukraine though so that's where you focus lies. I guess protecting European people is important for you people than looking at the world as a whole.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
israel has been documented using human shields many times
You think Israel cares about humans period, let alone human shields?! This current genocide shows the world that Israel does not care about human lives or rights at all.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,611
49,171
136
My big deal is that Western imperialism and colonialism is alive and well today. One of the prime examples is Israel, a colonial settler colony of the West. You only seem to care about Ukraine though so that's where you focus lies. I guess protecting European people is important for you people than looking at the world as a whole.
I have been a big critic of western imperialism. For example I was against the Iraq war from the start.

You, on the other hand, are a hypocrite.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,611
49,171
136
If you compare the civilian deaths, it is not comparable. You have two armies fighting. Israel vs Palestine is an army vs civilians. Russia is not cutting off water, food, medical supplies or blockading Ukraine. You Ukraine fanatics don't seem to get that. We have two different conflicts and they should be looked at differently. I know you people focus more on Ukraine because they are of European background, such as people like you most likely, but other people have been suffering for many years too. They don't even get a fraction of the attention because non-European lives don't matter to you people.

And once again, talk about Ukraine in the other thread.
Are you against genocidal invasions or are you not?
 
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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
I have been a big critic of western imperialism. For example I was against the Iraq war from the start.

You, on the other hand, are a hypocrite.
Good, glad to see that. You can call me names, no problem. I am to glad see you against Western imperialism. Are you also against the 800 US military bases across the world, used as a bullying tool?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,611
49,171
136
Good, glad to see that. You can call me names, no problem. I am to glad see you against Western imperialism. Are you also against the 800 US military bases across the world, used as a bullying tool?
So I am against western imperialism. Are you against Russian imperialism?
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,762
20,116
136
My big deal is that Western imperialism and colonialism is alive and well today. One of the prime examples is Israel, a colonial settler colony of the West. You only seem to care about Ukraine though so that's where you focus lies. I guess protecting European people is important for you people than looking at the world as a whole.
Ukraine has nothing to do with Western Imperialism. I am highly familiar with the tragedy and horrificness of Western Imprelialism from Mossadegh to the Shah, Pinochet, the British with India, 'Nam, and a ton more coups and dictators and wars supported all over the world in the name of Western interests - tons in South and Central America, and we've also had fun in Asia and Africa too. Israel too was the result of Western Imperialism getting rid of their 'Jewish' problem with a radical religious state at the expense of the natives.

As a harsh critic of much of the West's foreign policy, it's pretty easy to tell that this is absolutely none of that. This is a cause the West is 100% in the right about, and Putin is a monster. I mean it's not like we are making a pariah out of a good man for the sake of Western interests. This is fucking Putin, and this war is a fucking travesty, and it's Russia's war, as in it's because of them.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,988
10,159
136
If you compare the civilian deaths, it is not comparable. You have two armies fighting. Israel vs Palestine is an army vs civilians. Russia is not cutting off water, food, medical supplies or blockading Ukraine. You Ukraine fanatics don't seem to get that.

Instead they abduct children and take them back to Russia. So much better!

Honestly, what's the point in playing "who's the worse invader?". Both causes are completely without merit, both are using abhorrent means to get what they want, causing widespread chaos, destruction, misery and death.

Most people who grew up in peaceful times and in un-chaotic backgrounds seem to take for granted the delicate house of cards that was involved in their upbringing: One of those cards might represent a healthy (in both body and mind) parent, or a steady income into the household, etc. Remove one and you introduce a significant amount of chaos into a child's life. Along comes war, which doesn't just remove one of those cards, it often annihilates the whole god damn deck: Basic securities gone like of knowing you'll have a roof over your head, a bed to sleep in, food to eat in the morning, someone who will teach you how the world works, who will defend your life at the cost of their own.

Look at the fucking state of Ukraine or Gaza. Assuming that someone else won't just claim their land (a big assumption at this point), think about the fuck-all that people may come back to who likely can neither afford nor have access to resources to rebuild against that level of catastrophe. Many of those people will likely die in ghettos of various diseases that spread like wildfire there.

This world has enough freaking problems without arseholes who want to tear it down to satisfy their ego. Fuck every one of them. Don't make excuses for these arseholes.
 
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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,002
3,357
136
If you compare the civilian deaths, it is not comparable. You have two armies fighting. Israel vs Palestine is an army vs civilians. Russia is not cutting off water, food, medical supplies or blockading Ukraine. You Ukraine fanatics don't seem to get that. We have two different conflicts and they should be looked at differently. I know you people focus more on Ukraine because they are of European background, such as people like you most likely, but other people have been suffering for many years too. They don't even get a fraction of the attention because non-European lives don't matter to you people.

And once again, talk about Ukraine in the other thread.

Just a clarification, this is a war of a country (Israel) defending against a terrorist organization (HAMAS).

Palestinians in Gaza Strip have been brainwashed to believe they are doing the best for themselves by helping HAMAS, Palestinians should understand their wellbeing is not with HAMAS that seek the distraction of Israel , but with their legitimate and globally recognized authority the PLO that has recognized Israel and seek the creation of a Palestinian country next to Israel.
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,619
43,729
136
protesters in israel will not be happy about this news (there have been some violent clashes this weekend)



in the stormiest night of protests since the war began on October 7, the police's water cannons did not even spare a hostage who had been released from Hamas captivity.

This was not a localized, isolated incidence of violence. The police consistently used massive force throughout the evening, including the frequent use of water cannons and mounted officers. Police moved onto the sidewalks several times to push the protesters back. One mounted officer whipped an older man in the head with his horse's reins. A female demonstrator was injured by a horse while crossing the street. And two other demonstrators suffered eye injuries after being hit with water cannons.
[6:32 PM]
It's not inconceivable that the police were acting in the spirit of the minister in charge of them, Itamar Ben-Gvir. Ben-Gvir seeks to inflame tempers as a modus operandi, because he's convinced that wherever he can sow chaos, he will win more votes. Thus it is not inconceivable that the man who has set the West Bank and the Temple Mount ablaze will do the same to Tel Aviv.

Though the police are subordinate to Ben-Gvir, they must not be a branch of his Otzma Yehudit party. They must protect the right to demonstrate, a cornerstone of democracy, and tolerate the justified civic anger and frustration over this government's unprecedented abandonment of its citizens.
 
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trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,647
7,141
136
In the context of their homeland being invaded and taken over by a foreign state, where exactly do you expect Hamas to be?

Well instead of fighting in areas where the civilians have been evacuated, the Hamas fighters either force the civilians to sit tight with them or follow the evacuees to those declared safe zones that then become battlezones because of the hugging tactics the Hamas fighters employ.

There's also this situation where it becomes practically impossible to discern who are civilians and who are Hamas fighters until they start killing Israelis. To me that piles on a lot more civilian casualties because the Israelis aren't going to risk their own lives wasting that precious second that determine who's left standing after a shootout.

To my knowledge, to be "fair and balanced" about what's going on between Hamas, their Palestinian human shields and the Israelis, what I've previously described is something that I think needs to be mentioned as often as needed. That it's not being mentioned at all by our own media outlets seems odd and suspect to me.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,988
10,159
136
Well instead of fighting in areas where the civilians have been evacuated, the Hamas fighters either force the civilians to sit tight with them or follow the evacuees to those declared safe zones that then become battlezones because of the hugging tactics the Hamas fighters employ.

Citation please, and also you might want to read up about Israel bombing evacuation areas.

Also:
TLDR: A chronic lack of evidence to support Israel's assertions and some people here keep throwing around is if it's a fact.

To my knowledge, to be "fair and balanced" about what's going on between Hamas, their Palestinian human shields and the Israelis, what I've previously described is something that I think needs to be mentioned as often as needed. That it's not being mentioned at all by our own media outlets seems odd and suspect to me.

I suspect there's a good reason for that, especially as most MSM is pretty pro-Israel from what I've seen.
 
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Mar 11, 2004
23,152
5,621
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Well instead of fighting in areas where the civilians have been evacuated, the Hamas fighters either force the civilians to sit tight with them or follow the evacuees to those declared safe zones that then become battlezones because of the hugging tactics the Hamas fighters employ.

There's also this situation where it becomes practically impossible to discern who are civilians and who are Hamas fighters until they start killing Israelis. To me that piles on a lot more civilian casualties because the Israelis aren't going to risk their own lives wasting that precious second that determine who's left standing after a shootout.

To my knowledge, to be "fair and balanced" about what's going on between Hamas, their Palestinian human shields and the Israelis, what I've previously described is something that I think needs to be mentioned as often as needed. That it's not being mentioned at all by our own media outlets seems odd and suspect to me.

I'm not sure if you're trying for some weird satire such that you're resorting to such clowntics as claiming you're being "fair and balanced" a notoriously full of shit claim by a news organization operating as a propaganda arm of a political party, but if you are, you really need to work on your bit.

If you guys really wanna get into arguments, should Americans be supporting the people that enabled the murder of Jesus? I mean, it all goes back to that, does it not? We can have our cake and eat it too, let's call up Italy and ask if they'll re-open the Coliseum, then we go in and kidnap Hamas and Israel can pick their fighters, and we can really go viral by roping in the Tiger King to provide the tigers! Meanwhile, we can keep exporting weapons to Israel, rocks, slingshots, and the like, maybe some horses and knights. And if they have a problem with that, then we could just stop sending them weapons entirely, and hey they've rationalized that Palestinians throwing rocks is worthy of rolling in with tanks and shooting them, so clearly they're weapons of mass destruction!

Citation please, and also you might want to read up about Israel bombing evacuation areas.

Also:
TLDR: A chronic lack of evidence to support Israel's assertions and some people here keep throwing around is if it's a fact.



I suspect there's a good reason for that, especially as most MSM is pretty pro-Israel from what I've seen.

Yeah, not sure why that dipshit thinks media would bother trying to make supposedly rational "fair and balanced" arguments like that when they're usually just spewing whatever lies (beheaded babies for instance) and propaganda the Israeli military tells them without fact checking it at all (until it blows up in their faces - sometimes literally due to Israeli military shooting journalists and bombing news organizations, oh and look at that, Israel claiming the news orgs were effectively functioning as human shields for a Hamas command center).

But look, he's not being biased at all, but like why aren't we calling for the brutal murder of all Palestinians because of the barbaric Hamas? Its super ok to just indiscriminately murder civilians because like Hamas is using them as human shields, so kill 'em all! That's totally not barbaric! Then again, maybe we should be asking why isn't he going and standing amongst the fine Israeli military since he's so certain that will immediately remove all ability to criticize a group and will totally make any attempt at attacking Israeli military either literally or figuratively, the worse thing you could ever do!

There was an interesting episode of Darknet Diaries I listened to recently, and there was a former Mossad agent who made a hilariously bungling attempt at being a spy, but after that jackass blundered his way to being exposed, they tried to go after a PI they'd hired to help them on their campaign to discredit security researchers (that were exposing the horrible shit NSO group was doing), and the PI was saying how they just were focused on "how much were the reporters paying you" because they don't understand legit journalism, they view it all as propaganda war, swayed by money. Which sadly isn't wrong, but it also isn't correct, and their assumption that the guy was doing it out of money left him flabbergasted (and the PI I think was Russian/Ukrainian and so was likely quite aware of such normalized corruption). To add to the dipshittery they wanted to make the PI take a polygraph to prove the reporter hadn't paid him. The kicker though, the PI actually had been secretly running opposition because he found out the initial hiring was because they were working for Harvey Weinstein trying to smear his accusers and he thought that was so gross, so when he found out they were digging up dirt on Ronan Farrow and others, he ended up informing Ronan and then was feeding what was happening, which helped fuckup the dumbass spy and his attempt to smear the security researcher (who already assumed that was happening because of attempts on others, and the dumbass spy setting up the meeting under the premis of learning about using cameras on kites for surveillance - which the security researched points out makes very little sense in an age where drones are quite cheap and far more effective). Oh and their method was to try to wine and dine the researcher and goad him into saying some fucked up racist/bigoted stuff (by them saying the racist bigoted stuff and being like "you agree, yes" like they're Borat or something, like holy shit this guy was a fucking clownfucking dipshit, not unlike the "security researchers" that uncoverd the "unrepairable" Ryzen exploits a few years back). This is the type of shit that is just normal accepted behavior with Israeli "intelligence". Oh, and don't forget the US set export bans for aiding NSO group, since we know they're full of shit and have been using their exploits for awful shit, including it being used as part of the Saudi murder of Jamal Kashoggi.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,988
10,159
136
More "genocide is sad but necessary" fodder for our Israel apologists here:

And before you get your knickers in a twist, that article is citing WSJ with its headline; hardly a bastion of terrorist sympathizers.

29,000 bombs. Wiki estimates Hamas's membership to be 25,000.


A military advisor might say, "should we use the biggest bombs for verified legitimate military targets (ie. Hamas resources)?". How many legitimate military targets do you suppose were targeted by Israel's 2000 pound UNGUIDED BOMBS?

Israel is "defending itself", right guys? The sort of defence that involves none of Israel's own territory remotely in danger, not one aircraft lost, demolishing 70% of Gazan civilian homes, and the absolute confidence of every pretty much Israeli soldier that their homes and families will be where they left them. On the other hand, Gazans - Hamas operatives included - can be quite sure that they've either already lost their homes and families, or nothing short of a miracle will spare them.

Yet you have the cheek to say that Hamas aren't playing this "game" that will end in their certain death in quite the way you think they should.

You're happy to ignore that even Israel's most powerful supporter - the US - is uncomfortably asking if Israel wouldn't mind turning down the genocide a bit and maybe not quite so flagrantly targeting civilians, and yet you continue talking about Israel "defending themselves".
 
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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Just a clarification, this is a war of a country (Israel) defending against a terrorist organization (HAMAS).

Palestinians in Gaza Strip have been brainwashed to believe they are doing the best for themselves by helping HAMAS, Palestinians should understand their wellbeing is not with HAMAS that seek the distraction of Israel , but with their legitimate and globally recognized authority the PLO that has recognized Israel and seek the creation of a Palestinian country next to Israel.
There has to be a background to this story not just a bunch of lies regarding Oct 7. Even if you only look at Oct 7, Hamas went after the Israeli military mainly and took hostages because THOUSANDS of Palestinians are suffering in Israeli jails. In order to get them released, they felt the need to take hostages. And if you look at the footage, the burned and totally obliterated cars show that it was Israeli helicopters that fired on those cars and killed a lot of civilians. Hamas does not have the capability to do that level of damage to the cars and people. The people at the concert, who were partying a few miles from a concentration camp, well a lot of them were killed by the Israeli helicopters. It reacted very disorderly and chaotically.

Palestinians are brainwashed? No, they are not. There are now generations that have been born in concentration camps - generations. That is all they have known. That is not brainwashing because you are in a concentration camp and you will resist. That is a very disgusting thing you just said.

If Israel is at war with Hamas, then why are civilians more than 95% of the ones being killed? At least on Oct 7, Hamas largely went after Israeli military. None of your arguments are making sense.
 
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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Ukraine has nothing to do with Western Imperialism. I am highly familiar with the tragedy and horrificness of Western Imprelialism from Mossadegh to the Shah, Pinochet, the British with India, 'Nam, and a ton more coups and dictators and wars supported all over the world in the name of Western interests - tons in South and Central America, and we've also had fun in Asia and Africa too. Israel too was the result of Western Imperialism getting rid of their 'Jewish' problem with a radical religious state at the expense of the natives.

As a harsh critic of much of the West's foreign policy, it's pretty easy to tell that this is absolutely none of that. This is a cause the West is 100% in the right about, and Putin is a monster. I mean it's not like we are making a pariah out of a good man for the sake of Western interests. This is fucking Putin, and this war is a fucking travesty, and it's Russia's war, as in it's because of them.
Thank you for responding in a fair way, I can respect that. I hope more of that happens around here. I see a lot of emotions and attacks instead.

Ukraine has been a NATO project, along with Georgia, after the 2008 NATO summit. This is part of history. Russia says it cannot allow strategically important countries such as those, even if they are sovereign, to be part of NATO. You can criticize this and you have that right. Putin is not a clean man in the least as things in the past, such as the Chechnya massacres, etc have shown. This Ukraine war maybe could have been avoided if Ukraine was quickly brought into NATO? Because the West has been arming Ukraine and training them since 2015. I don't know why they did not bring them into NATO quicker! This might have avoided this war but that's another story for another thread.

I appreciate you mentioned the various Western wars of aggressions and regime change operations. But we have to remember that these events led to millions of deaths and millions of people displaced as well. You are one of the few I have seen here recently who has acknowledged this so thanks again.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Israel is bravely defending themselves against... <checks notes> people foraging for herbs. Punishable by up to 3 years in prison.

Israel's policy is genocide, period. This way they can take over the land and establish greater Israel. You can listen to their leaders and their media. And if that is not enough for you, you can look at their actions - denying food, denying water, denying electricity and denying aid trucks to come in from the Rafah crossing.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,762
20,116
136
Thank you for responding in a fair way, I can respect that. I hope more of that happens around here. I see a lot of emotions and attacks instead.

Ukraine has been a NATO project, along with Georgia, after the 2008 NATO summit. This is part of history. Russia says it cannot allow strategically important countries such as those, even if they are sovereign, to be part of NATO. You can criticize this and you have that right. Putin is not a clean man in the least as things in the past, such as the Chechnya massacres, etc have shown. This Ukraine war maybe could have been avoided if Ukraine was quickly brought into NATO? Because the West has been arming Ukraine and training them since 2015. I don't know why they did not bring them into NATO quicker! This might have avoided this war but that's another story for another thread.

I appreciate you mentioned the various Western wars of aggressions and regime change operations. But we have to remember that these events led to millions of deaths and millions of people displaced as well. You are one of the few I have seen here recently who has acknowledged this so thanks again.
Except you're still defending the Russians here. You can't defend pre emptively invade a sovereign Democratic nation like that. Defending Putin here is like defending some of the worst transgressions of Western imperialism. And this is Russia here, with tons of their own blood on their hands, not some innocent country.

This war, by Putin, and only Putin, is horrific no matter what mental gymnastics you bend yourself into.
 
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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Except you're still defending the Russians here. You can't defend pre emptively invade a sovereign Democratic nation like that. Defending Putin here is like defending some of the worst transgressions of Western imperialism. And this is Russia here, with tons of their own blood on their hands, not some innocent country.

This war, by Putin, and only Putin, is horrific no matter what mental gymnastics you bend yourself into.
No mental gymnastics. But are you aware of the Monroe Doctrine? Please you guys need to look it up. Countries have geopolitical red lines. This might give you an idea of Russia's red lines. But then again, I love it when people bring Russia into Israel thread so we can continue this in the Russia thread.

"While not specifically the Monroe Doctrine, Alexander Hamilton desired to control the sphere of influence in the Western Hemisphere, particularly in North America,[failed verification] but this was extended to the Latin American colonies by the Monroe Doctrine.[9] But Hamilton, writing in the Federalist Papers, was already wanting to establish the United States as a world power and hoped that it would suddenly become strong enough to keep the European powers outside of the Americas, despite the fact that the European countries controlled much more of the Americas than the U.S. herself.[8] Hamilton expected that the United States would become the dominant power in the New World and would, in the future, act as an intermediary between the European powers and any new countries blossoming near the U.S.[8]"

So America wants to dominate the entire Western hemisphere, including holding Cuba hostage under sanctions for many years, and will not tolerate any Russian or Chinese military influence on Mexico, but America has no problem putting NATO on countries that Russia sees as part of its influence. This is very troubling attitude because you only care about your own interests while not even respecting any other country's, especially a former superpower's, interests. Russia has allowed Sweden into NATO, no problem. But it says it won't let Ukraine or Georgia in and has gone to war over it. You don't like it and almost everyone here doesn't like it. So what? Great powers have these weird policies, just like America has the policy to not only dominate the Western hemisphere, but basically the entire globe with its 800 military bases. Russia has a military base in Syria at the request of the Syrian government.

Iraqis voted to kick the US out but the US is still there. The Iraqis don't like it either but does America care? Obviously not. Same thing with Syria. America occupies a third of Syria illegally. The Syrians and Iraqis want America out but of course that won't happen. Sovereignty, right guys?! LOL what a joke. US has no respect for sovereignty and people here will defend this while only attacking Russia.

The problem is that Western people are too one sided and cannot even acknowledge that there are other powerful countries too and they have their own interests. Letting Ukraine not part of NATO would have been better but if you are going to train them and arm them, since 2015, you need to put them into NATO asap. It was a huge policy failure of America to not bring Ukraine into NATO asap after arming and training it since 2015. This could have prevented this war because Russia is not going to attack NATO. Again, I don't favor or reject any of this as my opinion but I am showing you what happened. It's not up to me to decide these things but we can look at them from a more or less objective point of view.

If it were up to me, I would reduce military spending of the world by 99%. This would end homelessness for the most part too, by the way.
 
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