Israel: We Are At War

[Pohemi]

Clearly never looked north and seen Russians.

I'm well aware of the atrocities being committed in Ukraine by Russian soldiers, mainly on civilians. Not that it excuses these actions in the slightest, but they are actually fighting hard and meeting strong resistance. Palestinian civilians are no resistance to the IDF. They are slaughtering them and laughing about it.

There's no war in Gaza. There's very little or no fighting. There is a massacre of people who don't deserve it. They tell civilians to go a certain direction or to a certain location, and proceed to bomb or fire on it intentionally. That's war crimes and attempted genocide.

 

[KMFJD]

i guess praying isn't enough and they actually need to help and now they are throwing a hissy fit

https://twitter.com/x/status/1764294488816599112

it's amazing(?) that they can remove these protesters though and not the ones blocking aid convoys

 

[Leeea]

i guess praying isn't enough and they actually need to help and now they are throwing a hissy fit



it's amazing(?) that they can remove these protesters though and not the ones blocking aid convoys

Israel is not homogeneous.

A lot of people in Israel do not want this war, and blame internal Israeli factions for it. The Ultra orthodox are high on the list. The fact they do not have to fight it also irks people.

This is supposed to be a come together for Israel moment, even though everyone (polled at 94%*) knows it is a crisis created by Netanyahu's government.

And then these draft dodgers break ranks. Yea, it is not going to go over well.


And yea, your right to call out the double standard.



*https://www.aljazeera.com/features/...netanyahu-alone-as-israel-turns-on-wartime-pm

 

[KMFJD]

In Israel, support for the war soars

Grief over the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas has given way to euphoria over the advance of troops in Gaza. Polls show that 57% of the Jewish majority see the military force used in the first weeks of bombing as insufficient

english.elpais.com

poll numbers don't support your opinion though

The latest Peace Index, a survey conducted by Tel Aviv University, asked at the end of October, at the beginning the ground invasion of Gaza after three weeks of massive bombings: “How would you define the use the Israeli army has made of its firepower in Gaza?” Some 57.5% of respondents among the Jewish majority (80% of the population) answered “too little”; 36.6%, “appropriate;” and 1.8%, “excessive.”

Another survey, the Israeli Voice Index produced by the Israel Democracy Institute think tank, points in the same direction. The most recent, released on December 5, showed 87% support for resuming the offensive in Gaza after the week of ceasefire in the last seven days of November. The differences by ideological affiliation were smaller: 74% among those who define themselves as left-wing; 84% from the center, and 93% from the right.

https://social-sciences.tau.ac.il/sites/socsci.tau.ac.il/files/media_server/social/2023/Findings-November-2023-EN.pdf

 

[amenx]

Yeah the majority not wanting Netanyahu in office does not translate into them not wanting the war to continue or not wanting annihilation of Gaza. Its probably even one of the reasons N'yahu is so gun-ho for the war because its in line with public sentiment.

They just dont like Netanyahu for a variety of other reasons, incl corruption and his divisive plan to reshape the country’s justice system. THATS what all these huge protests against him have been for over the past year.

 

[linkgoron]

Yeah the majority not wanting Netanyahu in office does not translate into them not wanting the war to continue or not wanting annihilation of Gaza. Its probably even one of the reasons N'yahu is so gun-ho for the war because its in line with public sentiment.

There are two main reasons why Netanyahu would want a longer war. He can continue claiming that a prime minister should not resign at a time of war, nor should the parliament vote to disband for a new election, a time of war is not a time such things "because elections would cause internal strife". The other reason is his trial for which he has already requested more delays because "he cannot participate due to the war".

 

[MrSquished]

The Israeli government and all Israeli supporters of this war are absolutely some of the worst people on the planet.

 

[Iron Woode]

This Hamas rape story was debunked months ago. The sexual crimes, baby beheadings and other things were lies spread by Israelis so this can justify their war on Palestinian people. There was no proof because they felt that they are Israel and Israel needs no proof. And because Western media is so biased they basically believed these lies and so did American politicians. Hillary Clinton is still repeating these lies.

I also see that Biden is going to drop food and supplies on Gaza instead of bombs. What a great guy he is right?! After he basically destroyed the Gaza, killed more than 30,000 people and made life so hard for these people by supporting Israel, now he is going to drop food and supplies. This is just American foreign policy for you - they break countries, kill so many innocent people and then drop food on them. And you know what? Israel and America are the same at this point. Israel exists because of American weapons.

But this aid should have been done many months ago because people should assume that Israel was not going to let aid in. For many months they have blocked trucks so they can starve Palestinians. Only now America and the world cares? Ok.

Still no punishment for Andy Ogles for saying to kill all Palestinians? If Rashida Tlaib said something 5% as bad as that, she would have been removed by now. It shows that in America, Israeli lives matter much more than Palestinian lives. Not just Palestinian lives, but basically non-Western lives.

the UN disagrees with you:

UN experts say grounds to believe rape occurred in Hamas attack on Israel

Palestinian group has repeatedly denied allegations its fighters committed acts of sexual violence during the attack.

www.aljazeera.com

‘Clear and convincing information’ that hostages held in Gaza subjected to sexual violence, says UN Special Representative

Following a 17-day visit to Israel, the UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict reported on Monday that she and a team of experts had found “clear and convincing information” of rape and sexualized torture being committed against hostages seized during the 7 October terror attacks.

news.un.org

 

[linkgoron]

the UN disagrees with you:

UN experts say grounds to believe rape occurred in Hamas attack on Israel

Palestinian group has repeatedly denied allegations its fighters committed acts of sexual violence during the attack.

www.aljazeera.com

‘Clear and convincing information’ that hostages held in Gaza subjected to sexual violence, says UN Special Representative

Following a 17-day visit to Israel, the UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict reported on Monday that she and a team of experts had found “clear and convincing information” of rape and sexualized torture being committed against hostages seized during the 7 October terror attacks.

news.un.org

Obviously, this is a picture of a woman not sexually assaulted.

note - EXTREMELY GRAPHIC PICTURE.

Spoiler: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGE

Spoiler: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGE

Spoiler: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGE

Spoiler: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGE

Spoiler: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGE

 

[mikeymikec]

the UN disagrees with you:

UN experts say grounds to believe rape occurred in Hamas attack on Israel

Palestinian group has repeatedly denied allegations its fighters committed acts of sexual violence during the attack.

www.aljazeera.com

‘Clear and convincing information’ that hostages held in Gaza subjected to sexual violence, says UN Special Representative

Following a 17-day visit to Israel, the UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict reported on Monday that she and a team of experts had found “clear and convincing information” of rape and sexualized torture being committed against hostages seized during the 7 October terror attacks.

news.un.org

Really?

Patten said her team was not able to meet with any victims of sexual violence “despite concerted efforts to encourage them to come forward.”

"Grounds to believe" isn't really that compelling an argument in the context of the original claims. Just by the fact that a war zone exists anywhere in the world in any era in human history is sufficient "grounds to believe" that rape took place, because chances are in every active-duty offensive force there is going to be at least one arsehole who gets his rocks off this way. If that logic is sufficient evidence for you, then logically there's also room for a "both sides" argument, and your second article mentions allegations against Israeli forces. Where does that leave the righteous indignation of the original claim against Hamas?

As I've said before here:

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forums.anandtech.com

After some decent evidence has actually been presented to substantiate the assertion that Hamas went around mass-raping the locals (which hasn't happened yet to my knowledge), it mainly comes down to was such behaviour either encouraged, looked upon indifferently or wilfully ignored by the leadership of such forces, which too requires evidence (rather than the absence of it).

 

[KMFJD]

While i have no doubt that rapes occured, what this does not imply is that there was any kind of strategy of deploying sexual violence, which is what the israeli and NYT claim

 

[brycejones]

While i have no doubt that rapes occured, what this does not imply is that there was any kind of strategy of deploying sexual violence, which is what the israeli and NYT claim

Even if the original claims are accurate the behavior of one set of combatants in no way justifies the wholesale slaughter, displacement, and now starvation of civilians.

 

[KMFJD]

Just saw this come across

https://twitter.com/x/status/1764753211775475942

 

[linkgoron]

While i have no doubt that rapes occured, what this does not imply is that there was any kind of strategy of deploying sexual violence, which is what the israeli and NYT claim

What exactly are you defending? Hamas killed around one thousand of innocent civilians, including burning people in their homes, and abducting children including a 9-month year old baby. Does it matter if they only raped "non-systematically" (whatever that means) but killed and took hostage innocent people systematically?

 

[KMFJD]

What exactly are you defending? Hamas killed around one thousand of innocent civilians, including burning people in their homes, and abducting children including a 9-month year old baby. Does it matter if they only raped "non-systematically" (whatever that means) but killed and took hostage innocent people systematically?

Who defending rape? I'm disputing the israeli and nyt lies

 

[amenx]

"grounds to believe" based on Israeli claims, photos, narratives..."? we've seen a lot of how that turned out since the start of the war. I presume she is being polite and taking their words and 'evidence' at face value. Anyway lets see how this unfolds and what becomes of it after a full investigation is complete.

Obviously, this is a picture of a woman not sexually assaulted.

note - EXTREMELY GRAPHIC PICTURE.

Spoiler: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGE

Spoiler: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGE

Spoiler: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGE

Spoiler: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGE

Spoiler: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGE

View attachment 94843

Its not as graphic as one would presume. In fact it was published by the Daily Mail and others in early days of conflict. A fully clothed woman with blood on her shoulder, crotch and hands... in a conflict zone with explosions, crossfire, shrapnel flying all over... is evidence of rape? Not to say she wasnt raped, but thats hardly any indication she was given her presence in a battle zone.

What exactly are you defending? Hamas killed around one thousand of innocent civilians, including burning people in their homes, and abducting children including a 9-month year old baby. Does it matter if they only raped "non-systematically" (whatever that means) but killed and took hostage innocent people systematically?

A lot of those "burned out homes" were caused by Israeli helicopter gunships. According to some of the Israeli civilians on the ground at the time.

 

[amenx]

Anyway.. regardless of ANY of this. It does not remotely justify the mass slaughter/genocide of tens of thousands of civilians mostly women and children. Anyone who thinks what Hamas has done, no matter how bad, warrants genocide is plainly sick imo.

 

[linkgoron]

Its not as graphic as one would presume. In fact it was published by the Daily Mail and others in early days of conflict. A fully clothed woman with blood on her shoulder, crotch and hands... in a conflict zone with explosions, crossfire, shrapnel flying all over... is evidence of rape? Not to say she wasnt raped, but thats hardly any indication she was given her presence in a battle zone.

Right, the blood around her crotch is because she's obviously having her period.

A lot of those "burned out homes" were caused by Israeli helicopter gunships. According to some of the Israeli civilians on the ground at the time.

Evidence on Display at Israel’s Forensic Pathology Center Confirms Hamas’ Atrocities - The Media Line

Stifling the urge to retch became a difficult […]

themedialine.org

As Hamas torched their home, mom told her daughter: ‘I am sorry, we are about to die’

Danielle Aloni, abducted by Hamas on Oct. 7, speaks about capture and how she strived to take care of herself and five-year-old Emilia during 49 days of captivity

www.timesofisrael.com

Here's video footage:

Hamas gunmen shoot family dog before raiding fridge and torching home

The clip, obtained from the GoPro camera attached to the helmet of one Hamas fighter, showed how the dog came bounding out of the house towards the attackers and was immediately mowed down

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[amenx]

Right, the blood around her crotch is because she's obviously having her period.

Evidence on Display at Israel’s Forensic Pathology Center Confirms Hamas’ Atrocities - The Media Line

Stifling the urge to retch became a difficult […]

themedialine.org

As Hamas torched their home, mom told her daughter: ‘I am sorry, we are about to die’

Danielle Aloni, abducted by Hamas on Oct. 7, speaks about capture and how she strived to take care of herself and five-year-old Emilia during 49 days of captivity

www.timesofisrael.com

Here's video footage:

Hamas gunmen shoot family dog before raiding fridge and torching home

The clip, obtained from the GoPro camera attached to the helmet of one Hamas fighter, showed how the dog came bounding out of the house towards the attackers and was immediately mowed down

www.dailymail.co.uk

You forgot to include the 40 beheaded babies.

 

[amenx]

Friendly fire may have killed their relatives on Oct. 7. These Israeli families want answers now

Friendly fire may have killed their relatives on Oct. 7. These Israeli families want answers now

Relatives of civilians killed at a kibbutz in southern Israel during the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas are demanding the military immediately investigate signs that some may have been killed by Israeli security forces as they battled militants holding hostages.

apnews.com

 

[amenx]

Right, the blood around her crotch is because she's obviously having her period.

Evidence on Display at Israel’s Forensic Pathology Center Confirms Hamas’ Atrocities - The Media Line

Stifling the urge to retch became a difficult […]

themedialine.org

As Hamas torched their home, mom told her daughter: ‘I am sorry, we are about to die’

Danielle Aloni, abducted by Hamas on Oct. 7, speaks about capture and how she strived to take care of herself and five-year-old Emilia during 49 days of captivity

www.timesofisrael.com

Here's video footage:

Hamas gunmen shoot family dog before raiding fridge and torching home

The clip, obtained from the GoPro camera attached to the helmet of one Hamas fighter, showed how the dog came bounding out of the house towards the attackers and was immediately mowed down

www.dailymail.co.uk

Btw, were you aware that the Israelis scaled down the Oct 7 death toll from 1200 to a 1000 because they discovered many of the charred bodies were Hamas militants?

 

[linkgoron]

Friendly fire may have killed their relatives on Oct. 7. These Israeli families want answers now

Friendly fire may have killed their relatives on Oct. 7. These Israeli families want answers now

Relatives of civilians killed at a kibbutz in southern Israel during the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas are demanding the military immediately investigate signs that some may have been killed by Israeli security forces as they battled militants holding hostages.

apnews.com

What's your point? I've never denied that Israeli's have been killed because of friendly fire. It's inevitable. This specific case is also very very well known and has been talked about quite a bit in the media as it was not a mistake but a real decision in the field of battle. AFAIK There's still an ongoing investigation on the commander's decision, and talks about him being removed from the army, depending on what the results of the investigation will be. This very much weakens your case, as you can see how much noise this kind of event created.

You're the one ignoring footage and evidence I just provided by bringing in unrelated things about babies or whatever, which was actually never claimed by any official Israeli source and was denied by the army a few days after it was published (which I've already shared in this very thread).

 

[linkgoron]

Btw, were you aware that the Israelis scaled down the Oct 7 death toll from 1200 to a 1000 because they discovered many of the charred bodies were Hamas militants?

I am quite aware, the number was reduced from ~1400 to ~1,150. The reason I use ~1000 is because a few hundred were not civilians but military, which is why I don't count them in "innocent civilians". Note that I'm not including in that number hundreds of innocent civilian hostages that were taken including old women, old men and children.

It's not about just being charred, quite a few of them were not in "uniform" and some were in IDF uniform and it's not always easy to understand immediately who is Israeli and who is not. There are a lot of Arabs in Israel (21% of the population) and a lot of Jews with Arabic origin (IIRC about 60% of Jewish Israelis have at least one parent with an Arabic origin). It's not immediately clear just from seeing a body who's who. Without identification on the body, without knowing yet who's missing, who was taken hostage etc - especially with the mess of the first days. Here is another case, where numbers were changed even years after the event happened.

 

[amenx]

Just a few days ago they shot up 100 famished Gaza civilians and claimed they died in a stampede in rush to the food trucks. Except the dead had bullet holes. I think we've long established throughout this thread the Israel is the biggest purveyor of disinformation we ever seen to date. Some of what they report may be factual, but a lot of is twisted or made up to serve their interests. Mainly to serve their narrative and the dehumanization of the Palestinians as a whole so they can carry out a genocide. Are you OK with genocides?

 

[KMFJD]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1764771314600952192

we still taking israeli government for their word?