Israel: We Are At War

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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,985
12,116
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I've always wondered how the Hamas fighters were differentiated from the non-combatant Palestinians when it came to....well, body counts from an encounter and why it is that even after the Israeli military gave warnings to evacuate a certain building or area where an assault will be made, there's always so many civilian deaths involved without any explanation from the media as to why that is.

Lastly, I've noticed how most if not all of the news media outlets will not release any information as to how many Hamas fighters were POW'd, wounded or KIA'd in any specific clash between Hamas and the Israelis.

I've not made any guesses as to why that is because there's no way I could know the underlying factors and hidden agendas among the interested parties involved in this war, yet it did pique my interest as to the aforementioned issues.

Not taking sides on this, just mentioning a few oddities as to how this conflict is being reported.

Isn't the answer to your query kind of obvious?

Traditionally the aim of a war (post Geneva convention at any rate) was to force the opposing force to surrender. In such a conflict, eliminating as many enemy combatants / military resources as possible was the name of the game.

Therefore no Hamas casualties are being reported, that means two possibilities: 1) Israel hasn't killed any (or an embarrassingly low number of) Hamas operatives, or 2) Killing enemy combatants is not Israel's objective.

BBC reports "at least half of Gaza's buildings damaged or destroyed" and over 80% of the population displaced , dated January 2024.

If there's minimal and questionable evidence of Gazan military assets being targeted, and tonnes of evidence of civilian casualties and assets being destroyed, then logically why should one believe that this is a conflict between two military forces and the minimisation of civilian losses?
 
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trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,143
7,653
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Isn't the answer to your query kind of obvious?

Traditionally the aim of a war (post Geneva convention at any rate) was to force the opposing force to surrender. In such a conflict, eliminating as many enemy combatants / military resources as possible was the name of the game.

Therefore no Hamas casualties are being reported, that means two possibilities: 1) Israel hasn't killed any (or an embarrassingly low number of) Hamas operatives, or 2) Killing enemy combatants is not Israel's objective.

BBC reports "at least half of Gaza's buildings damaged or destroyed" and over 80% of the population displaced , dated January 2024.

If there's minimal and questionable evidence of Gazan military assets being targeted, and tonnes of evidence of civilian casualties and assets being destroyed, then logically why should one believe that this is a conflict between two military forces and the minimisation of civilian losses?

As far as what's being and not being reported, I'm skeptical of the total lack of Hamas losses being reported while an abundance of "innocent" Palestinians being "murdered" as victims of war is in the daily blurbs. There is no effort being pursued as to how the Hamas fighters are doing good or bad. It seems to me that would be newsworthy as it is in Ukraine. That the Israelis themselves aren't offering a body count of enemy KIA and their own losses is also suspect as to why that is. Yet the concern for the number of hostages still being held or had died in captivity is also up front in the news cycles as it should be.

So I asked myself is it even possible to tell just who the innocent victims are and which ones are KIA Hamas fighters because they all look the same as far as how they're dressed sans their weapons and gear? If I were a Hamas fighter it would be to my advantage to blend in with the "innocents" that I use for shields where if necessary all I'd have to do is drop my gear and mix myself in with the sympathizers in the crowd while threatening the others who hate them and just walk out of the mess with everyone else after the shooting and bombing stops.

Can anyone at all tell the difference or does it even matter due to the convenience of the deceased simply being lumped into one category as "innocent victims" because there's no way to tell who's who.

This is what I was interested in. Nothing more nor less.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,985
12,116
136
As far as what's being and not being reported, I'm skeptical of the total lack of Hamas losses being reported while an abundance of "innocent" Palestinians being "murdered" as victims of war is in the daily blurbs. There is no effort being pursued as to how the Hamas fighters are doing good or bad. It seems to me that would be newsworthy as it is in Ukraine. That the Israelis themselves aren't offering a body count of enemy KIA and their own losses is also suspect as to why that is. Yet the concern for the number of hostages still being held or had died in captivity is also up front in the news cycles as it should be.

So I asked myself is it even possible to tell just who the innocent victims are and which ones are KIA Hamas fighters because they all look the same as far as how they're dressed sans their weapons and gear? If I were a Hamas fighter it would be to my advantage to blend in with the "innocents" that I use for shields where if necessary all I'd have to do is drop my gear and mix myself in with the sympathizers in the crowd while threatening the others who hate them and just walk out of the mess with everyone else after the shooting and bombing stops.

Can anyone at all tell the difference or does it even matter due to the convenience of the deceased simply being lumped into one category as "innocent victims" because there's no way to tell who's who.

This is what I was interested in. Nothing more nor less.

If you're a soldier in a conflict and you kill someone holding a rifle who clearly isn't out hunting for game or defending their home, you would report it as a military casualty, right?

If you're a Hamas fighter and "drop your gear" as you put it, you've just lost your gear. The IDF would have to be stupid to find "lost gear" and leave it ready to use.

Therefore what's the assumption you're working on here, that Hamas fighters are so adept at "dropping their gear and blending in" that the IDF haven't caught any of them, and that Hamas have such massive stockpiles of weapons that their fighters can just drop their stuff willy-nilly, and that the IDF has never found such massive caches of weapons?

I realise you're trying to find the most innocent explanation for the anomalies you describe, but as long as you try to do that, you're not going to find an explanation that fits the facts.
 
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trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,143
7,653
136
If you're a soldier in a conflict and you kill someone holding a rifle who clearly isn't out hunting for game or defending their home, you would report it as a military casualty, right?

If you're a Hamas fighter and "drop your gear" as you put it, you've just lost your gear. The IDF would have to be stupid to find "lost gear" and leave it ready to use.

Therefore what's the assumption you're working on here, that Hamas fighters are so adept at "dropping their gear and blending in" that the IDF haven't caught any of them, and that Hamas have such massive stockpiles of weapons that their fighters can just drop their stuff willy-nilly, and that the IDF has never found such massive caches of weapons?

I realise you're trying to find the most innocent explanation for the anomalies you describe, but as long as you try to do that, you're not going to find an explanation that fits the facts.

The "drop the gear" I was referring to is in reference to an escape and evade tactic when the battle is lost. I assume that the Hamas fighters always surround themselves with innocent civilians thus the "blending in" order to escape capture.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,985
12,116
136
The "drop the gear" I was referring to is in reference to an escape and evade tactic when the battle is lost. I assume that the Hamas fighters always surround themselves with innocent civilians thus the "blending in" order to escape capture.

And the civilians act like NPCs in a video game even though an enemy combatant in close proximity greatly increases the risk to them...

I'm sure that some Palestinians will be sympathetic enough to Hamas to help them at potential cost to their own lives, but when chances are that every Palestinian is grieving the loss of at least one loved one, there's no betting how this will affect their survival instincts and feelings regarding Hamas. Some no doubt will blame Hamas for the death.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,132
2,412
136
The "drop the gear" I was referring to is in reference to an escape and evade tactic when the battle is lost. I assume that the Hamas fighters always surround themselves with innocent civilians thus the "blending in" order to escape capture.
You seem way out of the loop. Israel is deliberately inflicting mass civilian casualties as part of their strategy (to depopulate Gaza). They have been deliberately preventing food, medicines and water and even blowing them after reluctantly allowing aid convoys in. They have dropped 2000lb bombs on shelters and numerous other targets that had little to no evidence of Hamas activity. They have deliberately sniped helpless men, women and children even in safe zones. Thats why they have been accused of war crimes and genocide by the UN, ICC and ICJ and multiple HR orgs.

Sadly too many ppl viewing the conflict are unaware of much of this and being gaslit en masse with MSM coverage and statements of US politicians (all influenced by the lobby) and naively think Israel has shared values with the west. Nothing could be further from the truth, unless you include genocide, ethnic cleansing and dehumanizing of other peoples as 'shared values'.
 
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Jul 27, 2020
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Nothing could be further from the truth, unless you include genocide, ethnic cleansing and dehumanizing of other peoples as 'shared values'.
Palestine is just the beginning. Once they are done with Gaza, just wait and watch how they "invent" a whole new reason to decimate one of their neighbors. If they had the full support of the US with US willing to lend them their troops, they would not stop until the entire Middle East became Israel.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,143
7,653
136
You seem way out of the loop. Israel is deliberately inflicting mass civilian casualties as part of their strategy (to depopulate Gaza). They have been deliberately preventing food, medicines and water and even blowing them after reluctantly allowing aid convoys in. They have dropped 2000lb bombs on shelters and numerous other targets that had little to no evidence of Hamas activity. They have deliberately sniped helpless men, women and children even in safe zones. Thats why they have been accused of war crimes and genocide by the UN, ICC and ICJ and multiple HR orgs.

Sadly too many ppl viewing the conflict are unaware of much of this and being gaslit en masse with MSM coverage and statements of US politicians (all influenced by the lobby) and naively think Israel has shared values with the west. Nothing could be further from the truth, unless you include genocide, ethnic cleansing and dehumanizing of other peoples as 'shared values'.

I agree with what you've posted. However, what I was getting at in my last coup'la posts is specific only to how the media is reporting the events coming out of the war between Hamas and Israel and why the media is not mentioning certain aspects of the war that I think is mysteriously missing, for reasons I can only guess at. Ergo, from that perspective, what you're reading into my post hasn't much to do with what I was getting at.

As before, I agree with what you posted above although in my mind those are separate issues that I was not in any way alluding to in my previous posts. My previous musings specifically dealt with the media and the news they were and were not reporting that intrigued me. I hope that clears things up a bit.
 

Racan

Golden Member
Sep 22, 2012
1,170
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Jul 27, 2020
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I don't know why the military and the police attracts the barbaric type who enjoy bloodshed and total chaos and destruction. You cannot trust a wild animal to protect you forever. One day it's gonna turn on you.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,985
12,116
136
I don't know why the military and the police attracts the barbaric type who enjoy bloodshed and total chaos and destruction. You cannot trust a wild animal to protect you forever. One day it's gonna turn on you.

Certain kinds of power attract certain kinds of people, but if a nation's military and/or police force are used to acting in a certain way, they're just a symptom of the overall problem: The rot starts at the very top.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,132
2,412
136
Had a feeling when it became apparent they were wiping out Gaza, that it was only a matter of time before they got to work on the West Bank. Also believe last weeks "preemptive" strike on Hezbs rocket launchers may have been related to this.

I guess N'yahoo thought it was an opportune time to do this now with the US election nearing when no one dare utter a word of criticism about it.
 
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Dave_5k

Platinum Member
May 23, 2017
2,002
3,808
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Had a feeling when it became apparent they were wiping out Gaza, that it was only a matter of time before they got to work on the West Bank. Also believe last weeks "preemptive" strike on Hezbs rocket launchers may have been related to this.

I guess N'yahoo thought it was an opportune time to do this now with the US election nearing when no one dare utter a word of criticism about it.
And the only groups in the U.S. vocally complaining about it are threatening to withhold their votes ~ which of course is a further win-win for Netan-yahoo and his far right extremist buddies in the U.S.
 
Reactions: Brainonska511
Dec 10, 2005
25,517
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And the only groups in the U.S. vocally complaining about it are threatening to withhold their votes ~ which of course is a further win-win for Netan-yahoo and his far right extremist buddies in the U.S.
That's because only Democrats have agency.

Plus, protesting conservatives is apparently too dangerous according to some of the Twitter peanut gallery.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,987
9,303
136
I didn’t expect the general Israeli public to appropriately put the blame for recently killed hostages squarely on Netanyahu’s refusal to negotiate in good faith…but I’m all for it. That said—what Hamas did is absolutely despicable and we should have no illusions about the kind of people who took these hostages in the first place. Still, you'd hope the IDF would be 100% focused on finding and killing Yahyeh Sinwar or the safe return of hostages vs. opening a second front in the West Bank.
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
30,286
45,874
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Netanyahu said he valued holding the Egypt-Gaza border more than the lives of the remaining hostages in a cabinet meeting
 
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