Murdering the prisoners in the ghettos Israel created isn't self defense.Both can be true.
- Israel has the right to defend itself.
- But Israel goes too far with a total disregard for human life.
Yes, I'm glad we agree that we should ignore Hamas' assertion. As to estimating civilian casualties by eyeballing things lol - no.
I'm perfectly willing to believe civilian casualties in Gaza are high. I have no idea what that number is though and I sure as shit aren't going to get it from a bunch of degenerate murderers and liars with an obvious incentive to deceive me. Condemning Israel's actions does not require uncritically accepting statements by fucking Hamas, people.
Hahaha, ah the age old P&N dance where when people disagree with you it's due to a nefarious motive on their part. Maybe someone just genuinely disagrees with you!No-one said it did so dispense with the lazy straw man as well as implying that I think Gaza's figure should be ignored.
IMO Gaza's figure is easily plausible and I have no reason to doubt it. I also think you feel like you've got an argument to win as opposed to having an actually insightful point to make, and since you've got nothing but "I don't believe them!", I think we're done here.
To be fair, if we are to believe any reporting from the region, neither does Israel.and those numbers make no effort to discern who was a fighter and who wasn't.
I wouldn't believe the Israeli government's estimates either! They are a bunch of huge liars!To be fair, if we are to believe any reporting from the region, neither does Israel.
I think we both know that in any war all parties involved bullshit with numbers all the time to advance their interests. I don't blame them, I would do it too, but I'm also not going to pretend it's not happening.@fskimospy
Do we have any reason to doubt 35k when it's a dense urban environment being bombed with reckless abandon?
Frankly, I find that number to be astonishingly low.
Hahaha, ah the age old P&N dance where when people disagree with you it's due to a nefarious motive on their part. Maybe someone just genuinely disagrees with you!
I just think the sourcing is suspect and should be taken in context with the fact it's a self interested party, civilians and combatants are deliberately intermingled, and those numbers make no effort to discern who was a fighter and who wasn't.
I think Hamas directly benefits from higher casualty counts as it's good PR for them. The goal of their attack was not to militarily defeat Israel, it was to provoke Israel into a response that would weaken them long term, sap their resources, maybe mobilize other countries around them to assist, and to make further normalization of relations with Israel more difficult for other Middle Eastern nations.Ok, what do you think the benefit for Hamas is if the real figure is 10k less than what they asserted? 20k? How low do you think the figure can plausibly be to a point where such a lie actually benefits Hamas? What kind of benefit results?
I'm completely with you that Israel should be held accountable for their actions as their response clearly violates international standards of proportionality. I think their actions largely, if not entirely, are emblematic of indifference to civilian casualties, yes, but Hamas also acts in ways designed to put civilians in harm's way. I think Netanyahu is a war criminal who should be in prison but I also think a lot of Hamas' leadership should be in prison. They're all awful.As far as I'm concerned, the moment that Israel started carpet-bombing Gaza, they committed a war crime and should be held accountable. I honestly don't care if the casualty figure is 10k, 100k, or 2 million. It's a fucking crime to wantonly butcher civilians.
The West doesn't give two hoots about Gazans being massacred. If they did, something would have been done about Israel by now.I think Hamas directly benefits from higher casualty counts as it's good PR for them. The goal of their attack was not to militarily defeat Israel, it was to provoke Israel into a response that would weaken them long term, sap their resources, maybe mobilize other countries around them to assist, and to make further normalization of relations with Israel more difficult for other Middle Eastern nations.
I disagree! I think there was strong momentum for a general normalization of relations between Israel and a bunch of its neighbors before the war, and the war definitely delivered a hit to that. Maybe it doesn't work long term but I think that was absolutely one of Hamas' goals and PR directly feeds into that.The West doesn't give two hoots about Gazans being massacred. If they did, something would have been done about Israel by now.
"Good PR" doesn't do jack shit.
IIRC Israel tried to take out a "Hamas commander" in a neighbouring country which resulted in an increase in hostilities with its neighbours, but this has little bearing on what benefit specifically ensues from Hamas significantly fudging the casualty stats, let alone how much they really could fudge a casualty count of only 40k from that much bombing. What you've written is only really an argument for why you think Hamas did Oct 7th in the first place. Personally I think their motive is much simpler than that: Arseholes want to fuck shit up (more than it already was).I disagree! I think there was strong momentum for a general normalization of relations between Israel and a bunch of its neighbors before the war, and the war definitely delivered a hit to that. Maybe it doesn't work long term but I think that was absolutely one of Hamas' goals and PR directly feeds into that.
As far as the west goes sure, we view Israel as an ally (although I feel Netanyahu threatens that relationship with the US) and so they are more willing to tolerate civilian casualties by them than we would be by say, Iran. That's not exactly shocking though - sliding scales of morality in international relations are not new.
Reporting higher casualties directly contributes to their goals. I don't think this is a particularly crazy connection to make.IIRC Israel tried to take out a "Hamas commander" in a neighbouring country which resulted in an increase in hostilities with its neighbours, but this has little bearing on what benefit specifically ensues from Hamas significantly fudging the casualty stats, let alone how much they really could fudge a casualty count of only 40k from that much bombing. What you've written is only really an argument for why you think Hamas did Oct 7th in the first place.
I think Hamas has a genuine desire to see Israel weakened or destroyed and takes actions consistent with that.Personally I think their motive is much simpler than that: Arseholes want to fuck shit up (more than it already was).
In your opinion, yet you have not given any specifics about how it helps do that even though you're bold enough in your assertions to use words like "directly".Reporting higher casualties directly contributes to their goals. I don't think this is a particularly crazy connection to make.
Uhm... what? The conflict in Gaza makes normalization of Israeli relations more difficult. Don't take my word for it, just look at the actions of the Saudis following the invasion. Normalization may still happen (I bet it does) but it's definitely had a wrench thrown in things. The more casualties in the conflict the more poorly it will be viewed and the more difficult completion of normalization is. A --> B.In your opinion, yet you have not given any specifics about how it helps do that even though you're bold enough in your assertions to use words like "directly".
Uhm... what? The conflict in Gaza makes normalization of Israeli relations more difficult. Don't take my word for it, just look at the actions of the Saudis following the invasion. Normalization may still happen (I bet it does) but it's definitely had a wrench thrown in things. The more casualties in the conflict the more poorly it will be viewed and the more difficult completion of normalization is. A --> B.
Unless you're saying the conflict doesn't affect normalization of relations or you're saying that neighboring countries are indifferent to the number of casualties I'm not sure what the argument is.
Do you think Israel is a trustworthy source? Where would you put Israel's trustworthiness vs Hamas's trustworthiness in this matter?I have no idea what the number of casualties is. What I do know is that Hamas is an incredibly untrustworthy source and I'm sure you know this as well.
This is why I constantly harp on people to consider sources - an untrustworthy source doesn't become trustworthy because you agree with them and even the least trustworthy sources occasionally say true things. In fact, saying some things that are true is a vital part of the propaganda technique. To use someone else's point of 'who else would know?' ask yourself if you would consider Russia's estimates of civilian casualties in Donbas to be accurate. If not, why is that different?
I think Israel's war in Gaza has gone far beyond what could be justified by Hamas' barbaric attack but I still don't believe liars without external verification because, well, they are liars.
Again, we all know this.
Sigh.This is getting a bit tedious, and I can't be bothered to continue trying to get blood from a stone.
You're dead certain that Hamas is fudging the casualty figures because this helps them succeed in some way, but you appear to have no argument as to how much they've fudged them or even why fudging the figures by any amount would help them succeed.
Ah yes, the age old conspiracy theory that people engaged in a war lie about it. lol.As far as conspiracy theories go, it's pretty fucking dull. Put some effort into it!
Nah... the only reason anyone is using pagers in an era of cheap and cheery smartphones is because they can't be tracked. And that means Hezbollah. The fact that Iran's ambassador got hit in this operation is just cherry on the top.
ah yes....there we go...Nah... the only reason anyone is using pagers in an era of cheap and cheery smartphones is because they can't be tracked. And that means Hezbollah. The fact that Iran's ambassador got hit in this operation is just cherry on the top.
Sounds like a chunk of Hezbollah's command and control network was silenced on the eve of Israeli operations against them.
Why would you think this estimate would be even close to the truth?
I think Hamas directly benefits from higher casualty counts as it's good PR for them. The goal of their attack was not to militarily defeat Israel, it was to provoke Israel into a response that would weaken them long term, sap their resources, maybe mobilize other countries around them to assist, and to make further normalization of relations with Israel more difficult for other Middle Eastern nations.
These are all PR/policy goals, they aren't military ones, and Hamas has a direct incentive to misstate them here, so I don't take them at their word. As mentioned above I also wouldn't believe Israel's estimates for the same reason.
I disagree! I think there was strong momentum for a general normalization of relations between Israel and a bunch of its neighbors before the war, and the war definitely delivered a hit to that. Maybe it doesn't work long term but I think that was absolutely one of Hamas' goals and PR directly feeds into that.
Reporting higher casualties directly contributes to their goals. I don't think this is a particularly crazy connection to make.
I think Hamas has a genuine desire to see Israel weakened or destroyed and takes actions consistent with that.
Uhm... what? The conflict in Gaza makes normalization of Israeli relations more difficult. Don't take my word for it, just look at the actions of the Saudis following the invasion. Normalization may still happen (I bet it does) but it's definitely had a wrench thrown in things. The more casualties in the conflict the more poorly it will be viewed and the more difficult completion of normalization is. A --> B.
Unless you're saying the conflict doesn't affect normalization of relations or you're saying that neighboring countries are indifferent to the number of casualties I'm not sure what the argument is.
To be fair, Hamas' casualty/death numbers have historically been closer to the figures reported by reputable sources prior to Oct 7th. While Israel has always lied about or manipulated the data. So already your argument isn't completely correct. In the case of the numbers being reported, it would seem Hamas has more credibility than Israel. All you have to do is look at the data if you're not blind 😉I think we both know that in any war all parties involved bullshit with numbers all the time to advance their interests. I don't blame them, I would do it too, but I'm also not going to pretend it's not happening.