Israel: We Are At War

[mikeymikec]

Fair points, and obviously duration matters but that would be like saying 300M Americans are "complicit" because we aren't out in the streets protesting Trump 2.0. It's also extremely dangerous to paint all Israeli citizens as complicit in genocide. As for explicit objectives, maintaining an apartheid state while thieving plum land in the West Bank is far different from expelling Palestinians into other countries.

I'm on record on saying Israel's conduct over the past 15 months alone is absolutely disgusting, to put it mildly. But this topic started when you suggested the U.S. was stealing the Gaza strip from Israel, and that could cause the alliance to splinter. Up until Trump's suggestion, I don't believe Israel has ever built illegal settlements within Gaza. Even the CNN article you linked said Bibi smiled at the presser announcing Trump's idea to steal Gaza from its residents. Perhaps Bibi is a great actor, but I don't see the daylight between Israel and Trump that you suggested.

That was my main point, not whether Israel has committed war crimes.

Just bear in mind that your opening remark in your previous response was questioning whether Israel has committed war crimes, don't be surprised that if you make such a statement that someone is going to take you up on it.

I didn't suggest that's what the US is doing (America moving into Gaza), *Trump suggested that the US should do that*. I've also said that I think in this case Trump is shooting his mouth off as usual, but I think it's rather telling what comes out of his mouth even in those moments, in a Godfather-esque, "never tell anyone outside the family what you're thinking" way. I honestly couldn't care less how on-board Netanyahu is with his suggestion unless his response shows that he's actually developing a conscience, I only wish that evil fuckers like those two should bear the brunt of the evil that they do in this world.

re Israeli citizens and complicity - I don't see what's dangerous in having a conversation. Let's make the conversation easier: At what point do you think the average adult becomes complicit in the actions of their elected politicians? I'd say voting for them because of or despite their stated objectives (or past actions as a politician) scores a few points on the complicityometer, as a very simple example.

I honestly don't see an awful lot of point in arguing which is worse: apartheid, forceful expulsion from one's land or just outright killing en masse. If an organisation has tried to make peoples' lives a misery in ways such as those, that organisation is straight-up evil. Israel has done all three.

 

[UNCjigga]

I wonder if the secret service checked them out.

Donald Trump Gifted Golden Beeper From Israel's Netanyahu, In Apparent Nod To Attack

President Donald Trump was reportedly gifted two beepers — one regular and one golden — from Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu when the leaders met in Washington, D.C., this week.

The gifts were reportedly “a nod to” Israel’s deadly September 2024 operation in which it exploded hundreds of pagers and other devices used by members of the Iran-backed Hezbollah militant group in Lebanon and Syria, an Israeli official told The Associated Press...

Trump Gifted Golden Beeper From Israel's Netanyahu, In Apparent Nod To Attack

The U.S. president reportedly responded: “That was a major operation."

www.huffpost.com

I would not be surprised if Trump starts showing them off to all his friends donors/lobbyists and tells them, “I came up with the idea during a phone call with Bibi!”, whether or not it’s true.

 

[mikeymikec]

Donald Trump Gifted Golden Beeper From Israel's Netanyahu, In Apparent Nod To Attack

"In the interests of self-preservation, I don't think I should accept this"

 

[pauldun170]

What an interesting time to talk about world events.
In response to a decades long siege of refugee occupied territory due to prior conflict, Palestinians, launch an attack that killed 1200. Due to the nature of the campaign, it clearly met the definition of a terrorist attack.
In response to that, Israel invaded and during the process killed 46,000 people and met all the criteria that gets the word "genocide" used by experts and historians. It was supported by its chief ally, the United States.
Now, the United States is promoting a campaign of ethnic cleansing in the region in exchange for "things and stuff".

I'm guessing the United States is going to threaten to tarriff the fuck out of a random Arab country to set up refugee camps for 2 million?

What's next for the West Bank? Just have the settlers whittle away at it?

lovely

 

[DZero]

I would not be surprised if Trump starts showing them off to all his friends donors/lobbyists and tells them, “I came up with the idea during a phone call with Bibi!”, whether or not it’s true.

Imagine if the golden one is to spy Trump

 

[hal2kilo]

Imagine if the golden one is to spy Trump

He has no concept of spycraft.

 

[manly]

Just bear in mind that your opening remark in your previous response was questioning whether Israel has committed war crimes, don't be surprised that if you make such a statement that someone is going to take you up on it.

I didn't suggest that's what the US is doing (America moving into Gaza), *Trump suggested that the US should do that*. I've also said that I think in this case Trump is shooting his mouth off as usual, but I think it's rather telling what comes out of his mouth even in those moments, in a Godfather-esque, "never tell anyone outside the family what you're thinking" way. I honestly couldn't care less how on-board Netanyahu is with his suggestion unless his response shows that he's actually developing a conscience, I only wish that evil fuckers like those two should bear the brunt of the evil that they do in this world.

re Israeli citizens and complicity - I don't see what's dangerous in having a conversation. Let's make the conversation easier: At what point do you think the average adult becomes complicit in the actions of their elected politicians? I'd say voting for them because of or despite their stated objectives (or past actions as a politician) scores a few points on the complicityometer, as a very simple example.

I honestly don't see an awful lot of point in arguing which is worse: apartheid, forceful expulsion from one's land or just outright killing en masse. If an organisation has tried to make peoples' lives a misery in ways such as those, that organisation is straight-up evil. Israel has done all three.

That is patently false. I never questioned in a previous post whether Israel has committed war crimes. My original point yesterday was whether there's any daylight between Bibi and Trump on who gets to own Gaza.* It's certainly something two reasonable people here can disagree on, but the evidence suggests Israel likes the "blather." And as others suggested**, they could easily come to some agreement on partitioning.

I agree there's not much point in arguing the relative evilness of apartheid vs. Nakba vs. the Nazi's final solution. To me they are not all in the same ballpark, but you're entitled to your opinion.

* Originally Trump more or less said evict all the Pals out of Gaza permanently, and the U.S. could be sovereign. If the Israelis objected to that verbal diarrhea, they could have expressed it in other ways besides giddy approval. Instead, they rapidly gave it thumbs up.

** Here's the beginning of the thread of convo before I replied:
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=threads/israel-we-are-at-war.2615284/post-41388671

Anyway, we'll agree to disagree on certain points. I don't post much in this thread, but to be clear, I've never condoned the wanton vengeance campaign waged by the IDF. Words really can't express how sickening it is, and we all knew a long time ago that Trump, if reelected, would give Bibi virtual carte blanche.

 

[mikeymikec]

That is patently false. I never questioned in a previous post whether Israel has committed war crimes.

Yep, sorry. You questioned whether eliminating Palestine was Israel's "official policy".

 

[amenx]

The elimination of Palestine was set in motion in 1948, with the Zionists Plan D (Dalet).

Good read.

The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - by Ilan Pappé

 

[DZero]

The elimination of Palestine was set in motion in 1948, with the Zionists Plan D (Dalet).

Good read.

The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - by Ilan Pappé

The issue? Israel wants now to expand like an empire. This is gonna suck since Iran and Saudi Arab won't be sit.

 

[K1052]

Hamas is postponing the next release of hostages likely breaking the deal. Comes after some, including Trump, threatened retaliation for their condition. I guess getting them back somewhat emaciated is worse than getting back bodies or not at all?

Trump also reiterated his desire to take over Gaza, displace its people, and not allow them to return.

So going pretty well for the protest voters I suppose.

 

[Pens1566]

Hamas is postponing the next release of hostages likely breaking the deal. Comes after some, including Trump, threatened retaliation for their condition. I guess getting them back somewhat emaciated is worse than getting back bodies or not at all?

Trump also reiterated his desire to take over Gaza, displace its people, and not allow them to return.

So going pretty well for the protest voters I suppose.

I'm sure the Trump rhetoric about owning and developing the area while not allowing Palestinians back in had something to do with it.

Congratulations voters in Dearborn. You're getting exactly what you voted for, you ignorant short-sighted assholes.

 

[amenx]

Hamas is postponing the next release of hostages likely breaking the deal. Comes after some, including Trump, threatened retaliation for their condition. I guess getting them back somewhat emaciated is worse than getting back bodies or not at all?

Trump also reiterated his desire to take over Gaza, displace its people, and not allow them to return.

So going pretty well for the protest voters I suppose.

As ever predictable...

Haaretz: Its a Show: Israeli Sources Believe Netanyahu Intends to Derail Gaza Cease-fire as Delegation Heads to Doha

According to a source, the delegation is heading to Qatar 'without the ability to do anything.' Another source warns that the PM's conduct could also collapse the current stage of the deal: 'Once Hamas realizes there's no Stage 2, it won't complete the first one either'...

https://archive.vn/79y8U

 

[K1052]

Trump is apparently threatening to withhold aid form Egypt and Jordan if they don't take the Gazans.

Both nations see the such a proposal as an existential threat to their own security so dunno if that's gonna work.

 

[akenbennu]

As ever predictable...

Haaretz: Its a Show: Israeli Sources Believe Netanyahu Intends to Derail Gaza Cease-fire as Delegation Heads to Doha

According to a source, the delegation is heading to Qatar 'without the ability to do anything.' Another source warns that the PM's conduct could also collapse the current stage of the deal: 'Once Hamas realizes there's no Stage 2, it won't complete the first one either'...

https://archive.vn/79y8U

Agree, the deal is being scuttled thanks to Trump's comments and I doubt Israel ever intended to go through with anything serious for phase 2.

 

[amenx]

Trump is apparently threatening to withhold aid form Egypt and Jordan if they don't take the Gazans.

Both nations see the such a proposal as an existential threat to their own security so dunno if that's gonna work.

Of course. And Jordan has already taken in over 2 million Palestinians from 1948 to 1967, a little detail neither Trump nor his dipshit sec of state Rubio are likely to be aware of.

Egypt, other Arab allies, the Europeans, the rest of the world basically are in opposition to this preposterous plan. Trump has humiliated himself (and the US) and has begun to sense that, so withdrawing aid to Egypt is his last futile attempt to make things 'work'. How stupid can one get?

Earlier, Trump had stated that foreign aid to all countries would stop except to Egypt and Israel. Now Israel will be the only country receiving it, something I think even they are not too comfortable with due to appearances (that they have too much control over US foreign policy). People will take note of that.

 

[Jaskalas]

Now Israel will be the only country receiving it, something I think even they are not too comfortable with due to appearances (that they have too much control over US foreign policy). People will take note of that.

Israel will certainly take note if daddy takes the gloves off and shows them how to truly Genocide.

Thankfully Trump's blathering and delusions won't make for much of a coherent plan. The confusion he effuses may soften Israel's hand for a moment as they pause in "wtf". But rest assured, Israel's hand will be free to do whatever they like. Eventually they will make use of that and many more people will die and suffer as a result.

 

[mikeymikec]

Hamas is postponing the next release of hostages likely breaking the deal. Comes after some, including Trump, threatened retaliation for their condition. I guess getting them back somewhat emaciated is worse than getting back bodies or not at all?

Going off at a tangent a bit here:

I've generally considered Hamas to be a bunch of arseholes who stoked a conflict unnecessarily likely out of ego, but thinking about this hostage situation makes me consider a few things:

1 - IMO it likely takes *skill* to keep hostages alive for over a year despite thousands of air strikes and IIRC 70% of Gaza being levelled by those air strikes.

2 - I wonder if it was one of Israel's objectives all along to get all the captives killed and Hamas would take the blame for putting them in danger / not keeping them safe.

3 - There is little aid getting into Gaza thanks 100% to Israel. If the hostages are emaciated, whose fault is that, and does anyone believe that Hamas operatives are going to be well-fed?

 

[Thunder 57]

Earlier, Trump had stated that foreign aid to all countries would stop except to Egypt and Israel. Now Israel will be the only country receiving it, something I think even they are not too comfortable with due to appearances (that they have too much control over US foreign policy). People will take note of that.

How much control does AIPAC have when only Israel is receiving US aid, as if they need it? Disgusting. Sometimes I wonder who is running the government. Israel seems to pull all of the strings.

 

[amenx]

How much control does AIPAC have when only Israel is receiving US aid, as if they need it? Disgusting. Sometimes I wonder who is running the government. Israel seems to pull all of the strings.

Absolutely.

Former Chief of Joints Staff, Admiral Thomas Moorer in 1983 interview: "I've never seen a President – I don't care who he is – stand up to them [the Israelis]. It just boggles your mind. They always get what they want. The Israelis know what is going on all the time. I got to the point where I wasn't writing anything down. If the American people understood what a grip those people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms. Our citizens don't have any idea what goes on."

 

[amenx]

But rest assured, Israel's hand will be free to do whatever they like. Eventually they will make use of that and many more people will die and suffer as a result.

And do you now see how damaging that is to the US and its interests? For a superpower to be utterly incapable of reigning in its top aid recipient and to actually enable it in committing a genocide? To trash international laws, accords and conventions for the sake of this zio-shitstate? And when the US needs these laws and conventions to be observed by its adversaries or to preach to them about human rights or the inadmissibility of stealing others lands (Crimea, Taiwan, etc) they will just appear as dumb hypocrites?

One would have to be incredible stupid to think the US has any redeeming value in its relationship with Israel. The US has gained nothing but severe damage to itself and people, incl the sinking of the USS Liberty, the Lavon affair (acts of war), the handing over of its most vital classified nuke secrets to the Russians by Jonathan Pollard (spying on behalf of Israel to get the Russians to allow mass emigration of its Jews to Israel) and the list goes on.

Israel has been fucking the US so bad for decades, it would take an imbecile not to realize that. Unfortunately many of these vital facts, details, workings of the lobby are obscured from the American ppl most of whom are left clueless by a servile MSM.

 

[IronWing]

Cutting aid to Egypt would scuttle the Camp David accords, the framework for peace between Egypt and Israel for forty five years.

 

[Jaskalas]

And do you now see how damaging that is to the US and its interests?

The moral argument?
If the world is as you believe it to be, then yes. Very damaging. I would have agreed except... my view of humanity and the word at large greatly dimmed following Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the world's flaccid response. Not just that, but MUCH of the world... in fact more than half the population tacitly approves of invading Europe and moves their economies to assist. They do not shrink from it.

What we would call humanity, or a desire for peace and human rights... is largely a mask worn to appease the United States on the international stage. It was never real. They break it, we break it, it's only about the power to subjugate others. There was never any people of virtue upholding Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness for anyone else.

So in a world of total darkness, adding a little more does not actually make a meaningful difference. Except for those pool souls under foot.
It would have been better if there was a hero in this tale, but there never was. So we can dispense with the wisdom of lost morals. We cannot lose what we never had.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to win the election and have America clamp down on Israel.
I would love for the world to physically attack and kick out an invading Russian horde.
But that is not this world. Not this timeline. This, today, is a world of Genocide.

And our people voted to make it much worse.

 

[MrSquished]

Trump is quite capable of starting world war 3.

I've seen New York times article headline where they called Trump a dove and Biden a hawk or some shit like that. I mean this simulation sucks

 

[VRAMdemon]

Trump is apparently threatening to withhold aid form Egypt and Jordan if they don't take the Gazans.

Both nations see the such a proposal as an existential threat to their own security so dunno if that's gonna work.

Rough day for King Abdullah of Jordan, having to indulge a lunatic. And now, he’s got to go back home and face Queen Rania.

This idiot is hell bent on blowing up the ceasefire. Forced displacement is unlikely to happen for multiple reasons but no one has explained this to the POTUS. The immediate concern is to what degree talk of this may destabilize the King of Jordan and his government.