Israel: We Are At War

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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,616
11,331
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The difference is one of intent.

An attack specifically targeting an infant is one thing.


An attack on a Hamas rocket team that is fleeing down the stairwell of a residential tower they just fired from is another thing entirely. Both are going to result in a dead infant.


But the intent of the two attacks are entirely different.

I think you're being quite naive, though perhaps that logic will work for some soldiers who are still very new to the horrors of war and will probably at least temporarily need to insulate themselves from their actions, but if you're using an explosive you ought to have an realistic idea of what effect it will have if you use it near or in an apartment block.

Whether the intent is to kill babies or the user of such weaponry is indifferent to killing babies is such a thin distinctive line that as far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist.

Who is the one committing the war crime?

The Hamas rocket team launching off a top of a civilian residential tower at a civilian target?

or the Israel pilot trying to stop said rocket team from being able to get another launch off?


The laws of war say the rocket team is a valid military target.

Uh, they both are crimes. The Israeli pilot knows perfectly well that their weaponry cannot possibly target just the rocket team and if they fire a missile or tear up the place with a cannon, there is going to be collateral damage. There is also the question of what happens if the ordnance goes off course.

How are you defining war crimes? I have heard that term being thrown around a lot in this thread.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

Read point 2.iv and tell me that's not an argument absolutely riddled with loopholes.

According to the Israeli government and the likes of Hamas, this war is 100% necessary. The problem is, their both fighting in their own back yards; there's no no-man's land except that with which they create by eradicating civilian communities. Many "valid military targets" are neatly and purposefully wrapped in civilian resources, and both sides are convinced that targeting them is a valid means to an end even though there is at least one alternative.

Any practical definition of a war crime is mostly relative to the conditions of the war and what political will there is to pursue the crime, and is probably by several orders of magnitude the most poorly enforced crime in existence.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,292
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How are you defining war crimes? I have heard that term being thrown around a lot in this thread.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml
I mean, if you're using a rocket to flatten a hospital because of a single-use rocket fired from it, you're hitting 2.a.1, 3, 4, b.1, 2, 4, arguably 5, 9, 13, i think they've publicly stated 2.12, 2.14, are actively engaging in 2.25. And those are just the ones that I as a layman can identify from that list, there may be some nuance in there available to a lawyer/someone with more information than myself.

Except that morality isn't subjective. It's built into our genes. The notion that it is subjective leads to the potential justification of anything. The problem is that because morality is real and that knowledge is instinctive, whatever one is conditioned to believe is morality growing up takes on an air of certainty. Subjective truth gets substituted for the real thing and becomes fanatical pm;u because real truth does exists. All forms of belief that we call truth are delusional forms of isms. Truth is a state of conscious awareness and the spontaneity that flows from it.
I knew you'd respond to this and we're definitely going to agree to disagree on this, but I believe in whole that you're wrong. We as a species (and the species we came from) decided where the needle lies on morality for our entire existence, entirely independent of our genes, often independent of our upbringing (for both better and worse). The only people who 'know better' are ones who have witnessed how good life can be without all the raping and pillaging, and even then some still choose violence. Our culture primarily defines our morals though, which is basically just sparkling peer pressure at that point (we are apes after all).
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,671
1,943
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I mean, if you're using a rocket to flatten a hospital because of a single-use rocket fired from it, you're hitting 2.a.1, 3, 4, b.1, 2, 4, arguably 5, 9, 13, i think they've publicly stated 2.12, 2.14, are actively engaging in 2.25. And those are just the ones that I as a layman can identify from that list, there may be some nuance in there available to a lawyer/someone with more information than myself.

Can we agree that Hamas has engaged in?

2.a.1, 3, 4, 6, 6, 8 2.b.1, 2, 4, 5, 21, 23
 
Dec 10, 2005
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I never realized the moral bar of "we shouldn't kill civilians" was so controversial. Hamas is an awful group with their terrorist attack on civilians. The blanket revenge bombing of and cutting off of supplies to Gaza in response is appalling and bad.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
12,289
9,124
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Well, once the Israeli troops move into northern Gaza today/tomorrow, I'd expect Hezbollah retaliation in the north from Lebanon. Once that happens all bets are off for how fast (and where) this will escalate.

Given the planning and coordination that went into the attacks on Saturday, one would have to think that there are other follow on contingencies given how predictable Israel would be in their response(s).

Buckle up.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,671
1,943
136
I never realized the moral bar of "we shouldn't kill civilians" was so controversial. Hamas is an awful group with their terrorist attack on civilians. The blanket revenge bombing of and cutting off of supplies to Gaza in response is appalling and bad.

Is Israeli carpet bombing Gaza? Or taking out specific buildings that are being used by Hamas?
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,174
30,617
136
Well, once the Israeli troops move into northern Gaza today/tomorrow, I'd expect Hezbollah retaliation in the north from Lebanon. Once that happens all bets are off for how fast (and where) this will escalate.

Given the planning and coordination that went into the attacks on Saturday, one would have to think that there are other follow on contingencies given how predictable Israel would be in their response(s).

Buckle up.
I don't know about escalation outside of Israel/Palestine, but I would not be surprised if the Israeli military is walking into a trap. The Russians are learning just how hard invasion is these days.
 
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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
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From now on the eradication of Hamas is the ultimate priority for the survival of Israel as a state. You cannot have Hamas at the current state next to you any longer.
They will have to completely eradicate Hamas and then come with an agreement with the Palestinian government in the west bank to feel the void in Gaza.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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Is Israeli carpet bombing Gaza? Or taking out specific buildings that are being used by Hamas?
I'm not inclined to take Israel's word on how careful they are being given their own track record. And now with Israel calling for 1.1 million Palestinians civilians to leave northern Gaza - wtf is up with that, beyond some form of collective punishment.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,292
13,593
146
Is Israeli carpet bombing Gaza? Or taking out specific buildings that are being used by Hamas?
By virtue of the fact that Hamas embeds itself into the local population's infrastructure, striking Hamas inevitably means striking virtually all civilian infrastructure in a given area. In addition, given how concentrated everything is in both Gaza and the west bank, it looks as though they'll have to basically level every building to actually accomplish their goal, hence the whole 'tent city' comment.

This photo was taken yesterday:


Obviously there's tons of buildings in the distance, but it's clear that several blocks there are rendered uninhabitable/useless, and I really doubt whoever and whatever was in that area had an opportunity to appropriately evacuate in time. If you imagine trying to remove that many blocks' worth of people in NYC it would seem insurmountable, and gaza has almost double the number per square mile (~26k/sq mile vs 42k/sq mile).

Photo was from here:
Which btw, anecdotally, there are reports that strikes are coming in without warning. So no, don't expect that anyone actually is evacuating.
 
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Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
12,289
9,124
136
I don't know about escalation outside of Israel/Palestine, but I would not be surprised if the Israeli military is walking into a trap. The Russians are learning just how hard invasion is these days.

There's a real short distance (figuratively) between Lebanon and Iran when it comes to any Israeli retaliation for Hezbollah action in the north. It would not take much for either side to openly go after the other.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,017
8,052
136
I never realized the moral bar of "we shouldn't kill civilians" was so controversial. Hamas is an awful group with their terrorist attack on civilians. The blanket revenge bombing of and cutting off of supplies to Gaza in response is appalling and bad.
That is completely true. The response is horrific.
What alternatives exist?

For their escalation, Gaza must be seized and Hamas eliminated like ISIS.
The war against ISIS left many cities as bombed our husks. That is always what the use of force entails. The consequence of war.
Any alternative seems like it would be to let the terrorists live, to carry out MORE attacks later.

This only ends one way. Why not let it end?
People will keep dying if it does not end. So we are weighing atrocities VS atrocities, at least choose the one that changes course and stops further actions.
When today's atrocity is tomorrow's peace, morality becomes rather confusing, no?
But what is the alternative?
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,795
5,549
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By virtue of the fact that Hamas embeds itself into the local population's infrastructure, striking Hamas inevitably means striking virtually all civilian infrastructure in a given area. In addition, given how concentrated everything is in both Gaza and the west bank, it looks as though they'll have to basically level every building to actually accomplish their goal, hence the whole 'tent city' comment.

This photo was taken yesterday:
View attachment 87073

Obviously there's tons of buildings in the distance, but it's clear that several blocks there are rendered uninhabitable/useless, and I really doubt whoever and whatever was in that area had an opportunity to appropriately evacuate in time. If you imagine trying to remove that many blocks' worth of people in NYC it would seem insurmountable, and gaza has almost double the number per square mile (~26k/sq mile vs 42k/sq mile).

Photo was from here:
Which btw, anecdotally, there are reports that strikes are coming in without warning. So no, don't expect that anyone actually is evacuating.
Israel announced they had leveled the Hamas ministries district. Guessing that is what that is.


Yes, all of the strikes are coming in without warning now. The knock policy has been discontinued.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,123
37,400
136
Is Israeli carpet bombing Gaza? Or taking out specific buildings that are being used by Hamas?

I think the problem becomes that so many buildings are utilized at one point or another basically the whole place becomes a target. I've seen some assessments that the Israeli Air Force also tends to act on outdated info and so are striking some targets that are not actually in use at a given time. They're also not going to really care about collateral damage now.

The severity of Hamas atrocities in Israel has essentially assured this kind of response. Israel's compact with its citizens was that this kind of thing could no longer happen to Jews in Israel, but it did. This was probably the idea and Gazan civilians are going to pay the tab and Hamas doesn't care about that. If people want to look for guys to blame for this course of events they can point fingers at both Hamas and Israeli hardliners staring with Netanyahu who bears direct responsibility in so many respects.
 

gothuevos

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2010
2,310
1,848
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So after these 1.1 million people evacuate...what do they come back to? Will there be anything left?
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,695
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That is completely true. The response is horrific.
What alternatives exist?

For their escalation, Gaza must be seized and Hamas eliminated like ISIS.
The war against ISIS left many cities as bombed our husks. That is always what the use of force entails. The consequence of war.
Any alternative seems like it would be to let the terrorists live, to carry out MORE attacks later.

This only ends one way. Why not let it end?
People will keep dying if it does not end. So we are weighing atrocities VS atrocities, at least choose the one that changes course and stops further actions.
When today's atrocity is tomorrow's peace, morality becomes rather confusing, no?
But what is the alternative?
But wouldn’t slaughtering innocent PAL civilians just create more future terrorists? thus never ending from that front as well.
 
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Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,671
1,943
136
Yes, of course. But the US isn't an ally of and doesn't financially support Hamas. Israeli war crimes speak to our values.

Well some people would say the US is also guilty of war crimes for it's air strikes over the years to take out terrorist targets that also caused collateral damage and harmed non-combatants. Can you wage war against a terrorist group like Hamas without committing some type of war crimes?
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,107
2,376
136
For those only interested in the military, strategic and tactical aspects of the conflict (no political or moral or taking sides).

 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,795
5,549
136
So after these 1.1 million people evacuate...what do they come back to? Will there be anything left?
That will be part of Israel then.

There is no going back.

They likely will recreate the corridor to the west bank at some point, and they will most likely move to the west bank.
 
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