Israel: We Are At War

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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
30 ppl isn't genocide (just a fact, not trying to be an ass). That said, I wouldn't be surprised if we wind up seeing three zeros added to that number in the coming year. Gaza is just too densely populated for the IDF to escape this by anything other than not entering Gaza. I really hate the Middle East and wish the US could just leave. Who wants to be associated with all the shit that happens there?

Anyway, the sheer horror of what is about to happen is going to wake up the world and, possibly, lead to acts of terror in countries other than Israel. The war in Ukraine is horrible enough, but there is no NATO equivalent in the Middle East.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,669
43,892
136
my horror/anger is all our governments just happily seal clapping along and basically saying go get'm tiger
 

Roger Wilco

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2017
3,935
5,816
136
30 ppl isn't genocide (just a fact, not trying to be an ass). That said, I wouldn't be surprised if we wind up seeing three zeros added to that number in the coming year. Gaza is just too densely populated for the IDF to escape this by anything other than not entering Gaza. I really hate the Middle East and wish the US could just leave. Who wants to be associated with all the shit that happens there?

Anyway, the sheer horror of what is about to happen is going to wake up the world and, possibly, lead to acts of terror in countries other than Israel. The war in Ukraine is horrible enough, but there is no NATO equivalent in the Middle East.

These attacks are happening all over Gaza.

Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people[a] in whole or in part. In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Conventiondefined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.”
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,567
7,622
136
my horror/anger is all our governments just happily seal clapping along and basically saying go get'm tiger
Is there anything you would like to know about that position?

For example, I believe alternatives MAY exist... if it were not for the rocket barrages flying out of Gaza. Each launch site much be bombed. Each suspected storage site. Any Hamas locations / gatherings, etc. The capacity to launch bombs, results in being bombed. No free tickets there for Hamas to kill people, without the risk of being killed in counter battery and interdiction fire.

Second, there are the hostages. To shorten their period of being tortured to death, all haste is necessary to end their suffering one way, or another. That requires the absolute assault and possible raising to the ground, any location where they are suspected to be located. I would not see them suffer long. And anyone in the path would be toast.

One does not commit the massacre that Hamas did, and the sustained war effort on top of that, without inviting equal horrors. And when I must weigh one atrocity against another, I lay blame squarely on the aggressor. As defined by Hamas's escalation. War was declared by that act, and the aggrieved should have the right to finish it by capturing Gaza and eliminating Hamas. Because that is how you restore order and achieve a more lasting peace.

It may be an atrocity, but I know no other way to respond to what has occurred. And if Hamas is going to force us to choose, then I choose.
 
Reactions: Leeea

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,564
2,938
136
There are a lot of reasons to clear out "upper" Gaza. The news wonks think that mainly to clear the area of civilians. The obvious implication is that it's to spare civilians, and I'm sure it is. But since Hamas is dug into tens if not hundreds of km of tunnels, that makes finding all of their hidey holes much more difficult.

I wouldn't expect this right away, but THE best way clear out tunnels, especially ones you don't know about, except maybe very generally, is hyperbaric bombs. I'd have to check but I think those are mainly fuel-air bombs that are about as close to a tactical nuke as you can get. Not strategic, tactical.

US forces turned many a jihadi inside out with those puppies in Trashcanistan. It's one of the reasons they were so happy to see us leave. Trump was such a f'ing dumb ass. That could have been a much cleaner w/drawal.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,804
29,555
146
yes, I like that plan.

And we can move the former Texan's into a strip on the north side of Texas, fenced off. Surrounded by a smart wall. For everyone's safety. And not allow them to vote.

We can even start negotiations for a two state solution, a Texas republic, that gives them a small strip of their former territory. You know Texan's used to be slave holders, it is only fair they give up most of their land as reparations.


The new PDF could implement universal conscription to insure the freedom of the new state from all comers, and keep the Texan's safely behind the walls of their enclaves. I am sure a peace agreement could be arrived at in time.

respect
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
27,995
38,414
136
There are a lot of reasons to clear out "upper" Gaza. The news wonks think that mainly to clear the area of civilians. The obvious implication is that it's to spare civilians, and I'm sure it is. But since Hamas is dug into tens if not hundreds of km of tunnels, that makes finding all of their hidey holes much more difficult.

I wouldn't expect this right away, but THE best way clear out tunnels, especially ones you don't know about, except maybe very generally, is hyperbaric bombs. I'd have to check but I think those are mainly fuel-air bombs that are about as close to a tactical nuke as you can get. Not strategic, tactical.

US forces turned many a jihadi inside out with those puppies in Trashcanistan. It's one of the reasons they were so happy to see us leave. Trump was such a f'ing dumb ass. That could have been a much cleaner w/drawal.


Over 300miles of tunnels it's estimated, 130-100ft below ground.

I wouldn't expect to see the IDF use hyperbaric weapons until after they get the hostages back. The most likely scenario is that they are being held somewhere deep under ground, away from prying eyes and ears as well as airstrikes.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,828
8,301
136
How many civilians is it acceptable to kill to bring that hell to Hamas?
Steve Schmidt is emphatic...


The link below contains astounding revelations concerning anticipation of the events we're witnessing:

 
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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,695
5,428
136
Some of the first people to rescue Israeli's from Hamas were left wing anti-government protestors:
It was just last month when Eran Navon, a former Israeli combat soldier, was arrested at an anti-government demonstration near his home outside of Tel Aviv.

Israeli politicians denounced protesters like Navon, calling them “anarchists” and “traitors.”

members of the sprawling Brothers and Sisters in Arms protest group

The Israel Defense Forces began to mobilize troops on Oct. 7 — but without trains or buses available to transfer them to the south.

Navon said he jumped into gear immediately on the morning of Oct. 7

The army then gave the ex-reservists the green light to expand their efforts and enter active military zones to rescue civilians along the border. They set off for southern Israel en masse and set up a makeshift command post in Beit Kama, roughly 15 miles east of Gaza.

In Sderot, where Hamas militants overran local security forces and laid siege to the police station, some residents have expressed their gratitude for the rescue workers. But others have shouted: “This is all because of you!” Ariely said.
Sderot is a traditional stronghold for Netanyahu’s right-wing Likud party and Ariely’s volunteers have tried to explain that they are there as Israelis, not as leftist protesters, he said.
It has to be quite the head spin when Hamas terrorists over run your town, and its not the IDF who show up to rescue you, but the people your politicians have told you are traitors.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,828
8,301
136
It has to be quite the head spin when Hamas terrorists over run your town, and its not the IDF who show up to rescue you, but the people your politicians have told you are traitors.
Steve Schmidt lays the blame on Netanyahu, squarely:

 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,828
8,301
136
That over simplifies things.

Hamas needed Netanyahu as much as Netanyahu and its political party needed Hamas. Two faces of the same coin.
And your point? It is not Netanyahu who created Hamas. He didn't instigate the attack 1 week ago. Hamas' support is from Tehran.

However, without Netanyahu we would not be here. It's his Israel's colossal failure here. He must go and soon. That will be a lot easier and less catastrophic than weeding out Hamas from Gaza. Meantime, brace yourself...
 
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Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,564
2,938
136
It seems to me, it's a binary choice. Either Bibi was pretending to be Churchill allowing the destruction of Coventry (which is something I'm definitely not willing to exclude) or, in very uncharacteristic fashion, everyone in leadership thought that Hamas wasn't a problem any more.

The cable news wonks are humping the latter option hard, but from what little I know about Israel, I would probably go with the former.

I suppose it comes down to just how Machiavellian Bibi happens to be. Maybe he expected some sort of incursion but never understood the extent until it was too late. Given his political situation, that's not completely beyond the pale. In that case, I guess it's not truly a binary choice.

I just hope the truth is none of the above. But whatever it is, it's gonna be ugly.
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,695
5,428
136
And your point?
You cannot blame it all on Netanyahu.


Hamas is responsible for their own actions. They choose this of their own free will. They are not zombies. They have agency.

They have always denied Israel's right to exist. How is that Netanyahu's fault?



Israel cannot make peace with that. Nobody can make peace with that. This is the inevitable outcome of an organization that refuses to accept co-existence.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for Netayahu arranging the situation (pulling troops out, racketing up tensions, ignoring warnings) and then letting it happen. Well, yea, he totally did. How does that let Hamas off the hook? That just puts Netayahu on the hook with Hamas.


Like I said, two faces of the same coin.



If you watch the Israeli's being interviewed, they know it. They say they are all Israel now. But they all hint that after it is over there will be a reckoning.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
I broadly agree, that the Palestinians could have had a state had they chosen to compromise on one and they should own the fact that their obstinacy is a major contributor to their current misery.

It’s also true though, and people should emphasize this, that Netanyahu purposefully funded and built up Hamas precisely because he thought it would lead to this sort of conflict.

You know how much I hate #bothsides. Hamas is a cancer that I am happy to see destroyed but it’s pretty fucked up that the Israeli government was propping them up precisely because they thought their militancy would prevent a Palestinian state.

You'll have to provide me a link on that. As clarification, I have read two articles, one from Times of Israel, and the other Ha'Aretz, both left-leaning publications, each making this assertion. Regardless of their possible biases, I looked at the evidence presented, and found it shaky. The quote obviously makes the case, but it's a private statement and has a single, anonymous source. So far as evidence of actual "propping up" I found it relatively minor. It's interesting that his governments haven't really attacked Gaza at all in the past 6 years, in spite of IIRC a few rocket attacks. Clearly Hamas was laying quiet and building up for this. Also interesting to see the Israeli left argue that this is evidence of "propping up Hamas" when they criticized him for too much force for all those years.

But then, they might be correct. I wouldn't put it past Netanyahu. So I can assume, for the sake of argument, that Netanyahu did to some degree prop up, or at least lay off, Hamas these past 6 years. The problem is that Netanyahu is only in office because of Hamas. And now he's taken a page out of Trump's book and is beginning to imperil democracy there. Which makes me even angrier at Hamas, and the majority of Palestinians who put Hamas in power.

If you hadn't noticed, the political right is always empowered by terrorism. One could even say that terrorists and right wing politicians have a kind of sick, symbiotic relationship. The problem, however, in both sidsing this is that it was the Palestinians who turned away from a good faith peace offer that would have given them a sovereign state, and instead almost immediately turned to suicide bombings of civilian targets in Israel. And it was the Palestinians who voted Hamas into power in Gaza later on. Our parents used to tell us that if we got into a fight, it didn't matter who started it, but in warfare it most definitely does. The Pals have chosen war over peace at every step of the way. And because of that, Israel has a head of state who doesn't want the Pals to even have a state, because when civilians are killed by terrorist bombs, people don't elect the party that wanted peace, offered more than anyone thought they would, then walked away with their tails between their legs. They elect the party who says they're going to kick the crap out of the terrorists. And that isn't always the best leader or the best human being.

In case there is any lingering doubt that it is Palestinian terrorism that has been driving this conflict, I did mention in the first paragraph, that for the last 6 years, they hardly attacked Israel, and so Israel hardly attacked them. Now they did this, and they're going to be pulverized. I highlight this for anyone out there who is fuzzy on cause-and-effect, or on who is each of these here.
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,669
43,892
136
Based upon the Zionist supporters in this thread let alone the actual zionists, their bloodlust for Palestinians is endless. They can justify and hypocritize anything
Al Jazeera is putting the casualties in Gaza at 2,215 Killed 8,714 Wounded (600+ children killed) , in Israel the numbers are 1,300 Killed and over 3,400 wounded





more hypocrisy
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
The feeling of being a victim is as old as verbal abuse because of the connection between words that trigger the concepts in which we communicate and internalize our feelings of victimization. This is because the rules of conduct which we are forced to adopt to be accepted by the surrounding culture are imposed by words we learn carry threat. By implying that the pain we felt in learning we are under threat is constantly used to control our behavior we all feel we are victims of torment because we all went through it.

The problem, then, is that the feelings of rage at this violation of self creates a will to seek revenge, but the original source of the abuse is denied by powerful taboo. We were beaten down early on if we tried to resist.

So the rage smolders, triggered on occasion by slights and wounds to our ego interests. You can blame people for not accepting what to you is a rational compromise that for them triggers the feelings of rage at all the pain they have been through until the cows come home, but that only amounts to your own rage at what you have to do to people to break them of that habit. In short, your notions of what should be reasonable to them are just as irrational as they are in my opinion.

You can’t escape this blame-counter-blame, endless regression of historical rationalizations for violence as an acceptable self defense justification because it goes back to the duality made possible when humans learned to speak. Nobody is to blame for anything. Everyone is asleep and running a program, the blame-victim game.

You know Moonbeam, it seems to me we once had this exact same argument on this very discussion board, where I made the same points, you made the same points in response, I then responded again the same way, after which you ignored all my factual points and instead went off on one of your familiar philosophical rants. It's not lost on me that when certain historical facts are mentioned on this particular topic, that the anti-Israel peanut gallery has nothing whatsoever to say. It's a strong pattern I've noticed over 20 years of posting on this topic, here and elsewhere. But hey, I'll give it to you, you have your own unique way of ignoring arguments you cannot refute. You do it in style.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,726
49,320
136
You'll have to provide me a link on that. As clarification, I have read two articles, one from Times of Israel, and the other Ha'Aretz, both left-leaning publications, each making this assertion. Regardless of their possible biases, I looked at the evidence presented, and found it shaky. The quote obviously makes the case, but it's a private statement and has a single, anonymous source. So far as evidence of actual "propping up" I found it relatively minor. It's interesting that his governments haven't really attacked Gaza at all in the past 6 years, in spite of IIRC a few rocket attacks. Clearly Hamas was laying quiet and building up for this. Also interesting to see the Israeli left argue that this is evidence of "propping up Hamas" when they criticized him for too much force for all those years.

But then, they might be correct. I wouldn't put it past Netanyahu. So I can assume, for the sake of argument, that Netanyahu did to some degree prop up, or at least lay off, Hamas these past 6 years. The problem is that Netanyahu is only in office because of Hamas. And now he's taken a page out of Trump's book and is beginning to imperil democracy there. Which makes me even angrier at Hamas, and the majority of Palestinians who put Hamas in power.

If you hadn't noticed, the political right is always empowered by terrorism. One could even say that terrorists and right wing politicians have a kind of sick, symbiotic relationship. The problem, however, in both sidsing this is that it was the Palestinians who turned away from a good faith peace offer that would have given them a sovereign state, and instead almost immediately turned to suicide bombings of civilian targets in Israel. And it was the Palestinians who voted Hamas into power in Gaza later on. Our parents used to tell us that if we got into a fight, it didn't matter who started it, but in warfare it most definitely does. The Pals have chosen war over peace at every step of the way. And because of that, Israel has a head of state who doesn't want the Pals to even have a state, because when civilians are killed by terrorist bombs, people don't elect the party that wanted peace, offered more than anyone thought they would, then walked away with their tails between their legs. They elect the party who says they're going to kick the crap out of the terrorists. And that isn't always the best leader or the best human being.

In case there is any lingering doubt that it is Palestinian terrorism that has been driving this conflict, I did mention in the first paragraph, that for the last 6 years, they hardly attacked Israel, and so Israel hardly attacked them. Now they did this, and they're going to be pulverized. I highlight this for anyone out there who is fuzzy on cause-and-effect, or on who is each of these here.
I agree there’s no smoking gun but this has long been reported on and if nothing else seems to align pretty well with Israeli policy.
Here’s back in 2019 reporting saying the same thing.


Hamas should be eradicated but after that’s done (or maybe before!) Netanyahu needs to go to prison.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
I agree there’s no smoking gun but this has long been reported on and if nothing else seems to align pretty well with Israeli policy.
Here’s back in 2019 reporting saying the same thing.


Hamas should be eradicated but after that’s done (or maybe before!) Netanyahu needs to go to prison.

Well one piece of good news is Netanyahu is in some political trouble, with support for Likud dropping, because the government was caught with its pants down. That's the thing about playing the strong man. Netanyahu said "only i can keep you safe." Sound familiar? Well right now it's biting him in the ass.


Which should also put to rest the silly conspiracy theories some are playing at that makes Netanyahu complicit in, or having had foreknowledge of, these attacks. No leader, not especially the type that Netanyahu is, would either assist in carrying out, or permit to happen, anything that makes him look weak.
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,695
5,428
136
Ryan Macbeth as always does an excellent analysis, this time on Hamas's operational order of attack on October 7th:

He goes into detail on the level of professionalism and organization shown by Hamas.


Hamas is a terrorist organization, but they are also a professional regular army.

.
.
Ryan doesn't say this, but we all know the IDF is not a professional regular army. I have a feeling the IDF is in for a vicious surprise. The one thing we have seen over and over is professionalism and training matter more then all the toys in the world.

Be prepared for the possibly the IDF loses round 1.

.
.
I wonder if the IDF knows this? It would explain the evacuate all the civilians from the north plan. If they cannot beat Hamas in a combined arms fight then all they have left is airstrikes.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,575
29,269
136
You'll have to provide me a link on that. As clarification, I have read two articles, one from Times of Israel, and the other Ha'Aretz, both left-leaning publications, each making this assertion. Regardless of their possible biases, I looked at the evidence presented, and found it shaky. The quote obviously makes the case, but it's a private statement and has a single, anonymous source. So far as evidence of actual "propping up" I found it relatively minor. It's interesting that his governments haven't really attacked Gaza at all in the past 6 years, in spite of IIRC a few rocket attacks. Clearly Hamas was laying quiet and building up for this. Also interesting to see the Israeli left argue that this is evidence of "propping up Hamas" when they criticized him for too much force for all those years.

But then, they might be correct. I wouldn't put it past Netanyahu. So I can assume, for the sake of argument, that Netanyahu did to some degree prop up, or at least lay off, Hamas these past 6 years. The problem is that Netanyahu is only in office because of Hamas. And now he's taken a page out of Trump's book and is beginning to imperil democracy there. Which makes me even angrier at Hamas, and the majority of Palestinians who put Hamas in power.

If you hadn't noticed, the political right is always empowered by terrorism. One could even say that terrorists and right wing politicians have a kind of sick, symbiotic relationship. The problem, however, in both sidsing this is that it was the Palestinians who turned away from a good faith peace offer that would have given them a sovereign state, and instead almost immediately turned to suicide bombings of civilian targets in Israel. And it was the Palestinians who voted Hamas into power in Gaza later on. Our parents used to tell us that if we got into a fight, it didn't matter who started it, but in warfare it most definitely does. The Pals have chosen war over peace at every step of the way. And because of that, Israel has a head of state who doesn't want the Pals to even have a state, because when civilians are killed by terrorist bombs, people don't elect the party that wanted peace, offered more than anyone thought they would, then walked away with their tails between their legs. They elect the party who says they're going to kick the crap out of the terrorists. And that isn't always the best leader or the best human being.

In case there is any lingering doubt that it is Palestinian terrorism that has been driving this conflict, I did mention in the first paragraph, that for the last 6 years, they hardly attacked Israel, and so Israel hardly attacked them. Now they did this, and they're going to be pulverized. I highlight this for anyone out there who is fuzzy on cause-and-effect, or on who is each of these here.
I don't know if they've attacked Gaza directly in the last 6 years but they've done plenty to keep the hatred going full blast. Just one collection of examples from 2021 and I know I've seen many more headlines in mainstream media since then:

 
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